More Pre-Grouping Wagons in 4mm - the D299 appreciation thread.

[John-Miles]

22 hours ago, Rail-Online said:

Regarding the size and colour of coke, I recall the stuff used in the steel industry was a significantly larger size compared to the stuff sold for household use (which came in silly little bags - to our house at least).  OK it was 50 years ago but coke hoppers at Rotherwood Sidings had lumps about 5" across.  I searched my negs and they confirm this, only one in colour though......

 

Tony

 

Steel works coke is a very different product to coke for domestic use. Steel works coke has to be strong enough to maintain its integrity in a furnace when it has other things tipped on top of it. Domestic coke is much softer. The coal used is different to that for domestic coke.

 

When I was a student, I had a summer job on the Avenue Coking plant just south of Chesterfield, The coke they produced was fist sized and before it was weighed for loading it was always soaked in water, presumably to increase its weight - this was a different process to quenching when they tip the coke out of the oven. 

 

Working eight hours a day on a coking plant gives you a certain aroma which no amount of bathing gets rid of. At the same time I had  friend who had a job in a chip shop. The aromatic combination when we went out for a drink had to be experienced to be appreciated.

Edited February 8, 2021 by John-Miles
Wrong verb tense

[wagonman]

Here is a photo of a wagon loaded with coke fresh from the ovens at Newbury Colliery. It was destined for the ironworks at Westbury.

 

[Annie]

How much of that would have ended up on the ground after the first rough shunt?

[Mikkel]

Re-railing the cask discussion, I came across these postcards.

 

 

 

 

 

[billbedford]

On 07/02/2021 at 22:41, Compound2632 said:

Further to this, in terms of linear dimensions, assuming the casks have similar proportions, taking the linear dimension of a barrel as 1, we have:

• tun = 2.0 x barrel
• pipe or butt = 1.6 x barrel
• tierce or puncheon = 1.4 x barrel
• hogshead = 1.26 x barrel
• tierce = 1.10 x barrel
• kilderkin = 0.80 x barrel
• firkin = 0.63 x barrel

... remembering that this applies to the internal dimensions; factors such as stave thickness and depth of chine will scale differently.

 

...also the ratio of the diameter of the chine to the maximum diameter. That is, how curves the staves are. 

[Compound2632]

On 08/02/2021 at 16:05, John-Miles said:

Steel works coke is a very different product to coke for domestic use. Steel works coke has to be strong enough to maintain its integrity in a furnace when it has other things tipped on top of it. Domestic coke is much softer. The coal used is different to that for domestic coke.

 

For my purposes, I have to work out how the Midland's coke wagons were used. Somewhere, I've seen a photo or two of them lined up in the sidings alongside Saltley Gas Works, so they may have been used for bulk movements of coke between large producers such as gas works and industrial users such as steel works. The City of Birmingham Gas Department had a large fleet of wagons for the transport of gas coal from collieries to its works:

 

 

but not, as far as I'm aware, any coke wagons. But was gas works coke, a byproduct of the manufacture of town gas, suitable for steel works use, or was it better for the domestic market? There were collieries with coking ovens, for whom coke was the main product rather than a byproduct: we've looked at coke wagons of the Staffordshire Chemical Company, Bradwell Wood, a couple of times. The Battle of Saltley Gate may provide a clue: the picketers' object was to stop the supply of coke from the Saltley stockpile to industrial users.

 

On 09/02/2021 at 03:20, wagonman said:

Here is a photo of a wagon loaded with coke fresh from the ovens at Newbury Colliery. It was destined for the ironworks at Westbury.

 

I read that the Newbury Colliery was owned by the proprietors of the Westbury Ironworks, so any loss in transit would be an internal matter. One has to weigh in the balance the cost in manpower of the skilled stacking needed to produce a stable load, the cost of fitting the wagon with coke raves, and the value of coke lost in transit.

 

On 09/02/2021 at 06:32, Mikkel said:

Re-railing the cask discussion, I came across these postcards.

 

 

 

 

 

 

In the top photo, the wagon nearest the camera and the one three along from that, with the vertical ironwork half-way between the side knees and the corners, are ex-Midland wagons to D302 or D663A. These were respectively 2" and 4" deeper than D299, so the cask standing upright in the corner of the nearer wagon is undoubtedly of the same size as that seen in the D299 wagons in the Wellingborough photographs and is a barrel in the technical sense.

 

The wagon in the earlier photo seems to be loaded two-deep with smaller casks. If these are firkins, two together would stand about 35% higher than a single barrel: say about 3'6", i.e. projecting about 10" above the top of the wagon, which looks about right. It is of course a D299. With 10A axleboxes and the extra vertical ironwork between the end pillars, it's of early 1890s vintage. 

 

A version of the same photo is used to illustrate the OP of @Pete Goss's Copper Wort layout topic:

That amazing layout is of course casktastic; I couldn't find if he says whose he uses or whether his choice is driven by research into dimensions or just by judgement on appearance. 

 

On 09/02/2021 at 09:58, billbedford said:

...also the ratio of the diameter of the chine to the maximum diameter. That is, how curves the staves are. 

 

Indeed, which is why I'm getting hung up on the proportions!

Edited June 16, 2022 by Compound2632
sp.

[Compound2632]

This rather nice Lledo die-cast steam lorry was, I think, given to one of the boys as a toy about fifteen years ago:

 

 

Not knowing much about either diecast vehicles of full-size steam lorries, I assume the scale is 1:72. The casks, which are a plastic moulding with pegs on the underside that locate in the holes in the lorry's floor, are 12 mm high by 9.5 mm waist diameter; a bit over-size for Burton barrels, though they could pass for tierces. The more I look at them, I don't think they're quite bulgy enough.

Edited June 16, 2022 by Compound2632
image re-inserted

[MikeOxon]

Just for fun, I tried 'colourising' the B/W from Pete Goss's thread with the PixBim software I described in my own blog.  As usual, the software went for a reddish engine, which I have changed to green but, otherwise, it made a reasonable looking attempt:

 

[Regularity]

Not sure about the steam wagon, but a lot of the Lledo vehicles are actually S scale.

 

[Compound2632]

21 minutes ago, Regularity said:

Not sure about the steam wagon, but a lot of the Lledo vehicles are actually S scale.

 

That would make these casks 2'6" tall which is, I think, midway between a Burton barrel and a Burton kilderkin.

[Mikkel]

A common problem of commercially available casks - even the better ones - is that one end isn't meant to be seen. Which isn't good for those who want to use them lying down. These are the EFE ones, for example.

 

 

 

[Compound2632]

1 minute ago, Mikkel said:

A common problem of commercially available casks - even the better ones - is that one end isn't meant to be seen. Which isn't good for those who want to use them lying down.

 

I'm happy with that, I do my modelling sitting up!

 

My focus here is on replicating Burton beer barrels (maybe also other sizes of cask) as seen in photos of Midland wagons - standing on end. As I've pointed out to @Guy Rixon, because the Slaters D299 and D305 end up with the floor about 0.8 mm too high, my ideal barrels will have that much missing off one end! The fudge would go unnoticed in the intercaskular gloom.

[Penlan]

On the LNWR Society's FB page, there's an interesting link to a film of still's (is that an oxymoron?) 

on Youtube called 'Railway History - Modern Railway Working: Goods circa 1910'.
Plenty of period details to keep us going.......
 

 

Edited February 9, 2021 by Penlan

[phil_sutters]

15 hours ago, wagonman said:

Here is a photo of a wagon loaded with coke fresh from the ovens at Newbury Colliery. It was destined for the ironworks at Westbury.

 

This was the best I could do 50 years ago with no reference material for the Newbury wagons. They were dark green if I remember right, or maybe black. Vobster was the village beyond Highbury, which was part of Coleford - Dad's parish in the late '50s.

Edited February 9, 2021 by phil_sutters

[kitpw]

You've probably aready looked but, in case not, see https://www.nationalbrewerycentre.co.uk/museum (which is at Burton Upon Trent): they say they have some of Bass's own collection and one of the displays is a model of the brewery including barrels and railway (most likely to be 4mm scale).  Might be worth contacting the museum...

 

... about coke, I know nothing at all.

 

Kit PW

[Mikkel]

34 minutes ago, Penlan said:

On the LNWR Society's FB page, there's an interesting link to a film of still's (is that an oxymoron?) 

on Youtube called 'Railway History - Modern Railway Working: Goods circa 1910'.
Plenty of period details to keep us going.......
 

 

 

That is very useful, many thanks. I have been looking for something like this for a while, as I want to model some of the different goods staff grades and -handling procedures. It adds to Tony Atkin's superb books on everyday goods handling on the GWR. 

 

Those tobacco hogsheads would make an interesting little project.

[Compound2632]

35 minutes ago, kitpw said:

You've probably aready looked but, in case not, see https://www.nationalbrewerycentre.co.uk/museum (which is at Burton Upon Trent): they say they have some of Bass's own collection and one of the displays is a model of the brewery including barrels and railway (most likely to be 4mm scale).  Might be worth contacting the museum...

 

 

Presumably the beer is on the outside of the Escape Rooms, otherwise there'd be no incentive?

 

Why, if ’tis dancing you would be,   

There’s brisker pipes than poetry.

Say, for what were hop-yards meant,

Or why was Burton built on Trent?

 

A.E. Housman, A Shropshire Lad, Canto LXII.

[kitpw]

...from the same source (no pun intended)...

 

"And malt does more than Milton can
To justify God's ways to man"

 

Kit PW

 

 

 

[Crimson Rambler]

Some barrels alongside Midland No. 6 class (or Class C) 0-4-4T No. 137 photographed alongside the Cannon Brewery, Fulham. The engine, built in 1875 was shedded at Kentish Town for at least twenty years, but my guess is that this view dates from the early to mid 1880s.

 

 

 

Crimson Rambler

[Compound2632]

1 hour ago, Crimson Rambler said:

Some barrels alongside Midland No. 6 class (or Class C) 0-4-4T No. 137 photographed alongside the Cannon Brewery, Fulham. The engine, built in 1875 was shedded at Kentish Town for at least twenty years, but my guess is that this view dates from the early to mid 1880s.

 

The "like" button isn't big enough! 

 

The left-most of the three is a D353 covered goods wagon, the first 50 ordered in 1880 but no more until 210 ordered in 1884, after which there was a batch a year until 1891. The doorway is 5'0" high. But it's the two wagons on the right that are an amazing find: pre-1877 covered goods wagons. I'm pretty sure they must me Midland; I don't think any of the Southern companies having anything matching this. The double X framing on the ends is seen in several early wagons that are presumed to be Midland: Essery, Midland Wagons Vol. 1 Plates 31 and 39; the doors are like Plates 37 and 38 - but a common design - however the wagons in those photos don't have the X-framing on the sides. These two wagons have roof doors on the far side - the raised frame can be made out. Any higher resolution?

 

The whole train is the length of a tennis court. The Midland's West Kensington coal yard, opened 25 March 1878, is to the left, per the 1893/4 OS 25" map.

 

 

Edited February 9, 2021 by Compound2632

[Regularity]

1 hour ago, Crimson Rambler said:

Some barrels alongside Midland No. 6 class (or Class C) 0-4-4T No. 137 photographed alongside the Cannon Brewery, Fulham. The engine, built in 1875 was shedded at Kentish Town for at least twenty years, but my guess is that this view dates from the early to mid 1880s.

 

 

 

Crimson Rambler

Oh, so there was a time when Midland tank engines (a) looked more interesting; and (b) showed the clear lineage from Johnson's time at the Great Eastern Railway!

 

On a serious note, that's a cracking photo.

Edited February 9, 2021 by Regularity
(a) and (b) may be related.

[Compound2632]

9 minutes ago, Regularity said:

Oh, so there was a time when Midland tank engines ... showed the clear lineage from Johnson's time at the Great Eastern Railway!

 

Johnson's Great Eastern 0-4-4Ts were the very first side tank 0-4-4Ts to be built and the 6 Class engines his first Midland 0-4-4Ts, coming out in 1875. So only 2-3 years between them.

[PenrithBeacon]

1 hour ago, Crimson Rambler said:

Some barrels alongside Midland No. 6 class (or Class C) 0-4-4T No. 137 photographed alongside the Cannon Brewery, Fulham. The engine, built in 1875 was shedded at Kentish Town for at least twenty years, but my guess is that this view dates from the early to mid 1880s.

 

 

 

Crimson Rambler

Is that a Kirtley brake van?

[Compound2632]

On 09/02/2021 at 22:18, PenrithBeacon said:

Is that a Kirtley brake van?

 

It is. The familiar Midland van with a verandah at one end was introduced in 1877 with a batch of 100; by the early 1880s there were 225 in service so there were still plenty of Kirtley brake vans in service. The question is, how many? The highest number seen on a Kirtley brake van is M.893 so I suspect around 900, including ballast brakes. But that number was down to about 130 by the end of 1894.

I really must finish my pair, from the Mousa Models kit:

 

 

They'd certainly all gone by 1902, so this is a bit of an indulgence.

Edited June 16, 2022 by Compound2632
image re-inserted

[Compound2632]

Going to the Historic England website, one can access a higher-resolution version of the Cannon Brewery photo. I'm not clever enough to embed it here but much more detail of the early covered goods wagons can be seen. Annoyingly, carts and people block any view of solebar numberplates - the only indication of company identity on Midland wagons at this date. Frustratingly, the number of the Kirtley brake isn't quite decipherable.

 

I like the information that the brewery is at the bottom of the garden of the brewer's rather grand house - hence the tennis court - so this is a 12 in/ft scale garden railway!

Edited February 9, 2021 by Compound2632