More Pre-Grouping Wagons in 4mm - the D299 appreciation thread.

[Compound2632]

Hopping about as usual: revisiting the Monk Bretton Colliery wagons. I've had some correspondence with Ian Pope of Lightmoor Press, in the course of which these wagons came up. He has a copy of the colliery photo, with a little bit more on the left. This confirms the word "NEAR" plus, from a wagon in the background, it's possible to guess that the rest of that line is "Co Ltd". So here's my take on the basic dimensions of the wagon and layout of the lettering, assuming 15 ft over headstocks and 9 ft wheelbase:

Many details missing of course, including the scotch brake.

Edited June 16, 2022 by Compound2632
image re-inserted

[Compound2632]

For @Annie's benefit, I should perhaps mention that I used Arial Black as my starting point but have "converted to curves" in CorelDraw and tweaked the proportions to get horizontals the same width as verticals along with various other refinements.

[Annie]

6 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

For @Annie's benefit, I should perhaps mention that I used Arial Black as my starting point but have "converted to curves" in CorelDraw and tweaked the proportions to get horizontals the same width as verticals along with various other refinements.

I also use Arial or Arial Black as a starting point or template Stephen.  Paint.NET is my tool of choice to pull or push the standard font into something close to being the right proportions and any finishing work needed is done by hand drawing to obtain the final shaping of the letters.  When I'm working on my wagon textures I'll zoom into the image so that I can more easily see what I'm doing and it makes hand drawing details a lot easier as well.

 

A very nice wagon drawing by the way.  A definite triumph for your persistence with researching Monk Bretton wagons.

[Miss Prism]

Royal passenger luggage in advance, 1897 style:

https://didcotrailwaycentre.org.uk/product.php/78/going-loco

(always a good read for GWR fans, and blogged I suspect by 'Castle' of this parish)
 

[Compound2632]

5 minutes ago, Miss Prism said:

Royal passenger luggage in advance, 1897 style:

 

Is that all? Typical of our cheapskate usurping Hanoverians. Now, when William Cavendish, 7th Duke of Devonshire, relocated from Chatsworth to Holker Hall for Christmas 1883, the following was dispatched from Rowsley to Cark: four carriages (conveyed in covered, not open, carriage trucks), nineteen horses (that's at least seven horseboxes), and three dogs (who presumably went in the horsebox dogboxes) [G. Waite and L. Knighton, Rowsley, a Rural Railway Centre (Midland Railway Society, 2003) p. 65]. 

[Florence Locomotive Works]

A question for you all,

 

 

Is there any known footage of a Kirtley Goods? (that's not in the BFI archive*)

 

I ask as I could have sworn I'd seen some somewhere but have forgotten where.

 

*I can't access the BFI archive as I live in the USA and don't have a UK VPN, and its only available to UK IP addresses.

 

Douglas

[kandc_au]

13 hours ago, Miss Prism said:

Royal passenger luggage in advance, 1897 style:

https://didcotrailwaycentre.org.uk/product.php/78/going-loco

(always a good read for GWR fans, and blogged I suspect by 'Castle' of this parish)
 

Hi, Can someone confirm the coach in the first pic, is a D4 (listed in Russell  as a D8) Please?
Khris

Edited February 12, 2021 by kandc_au
add missing section of question.

[Compound2632]

On 12/02/2021 at 06:48, kandc_au said:

Hi, Can someone confirm the coach in the first pic, is a D4 (listed in Russell  as a D8) Please?

 

I don't think it's any sort of third brake. I think it's the same type of composite brake as seen in @John_Miles' Glasbury photo:

 

 

... very like E9 but with the luggage and guard's compartments reversed. Either the diagram is wrong or this was a variant that didn't survive long enough to make it into the diagram book. 

Edited June 16, 2022 by Compound2632
Images re-inserted

[Penlan]

On 06/02/2021 at 09:09, Rowsley17D said:

For beer barrels try these: https://www.peediemodels.com/proddetail.php?prod=Wooden_Barrels_(OO_scale)

They look very close to Burton ones to me. 

These are the 'Peedie' Barrels in 4mm scale, they equate to 4' 6" (18mm)  & 3' 2" high (12.7mm).

 

Edited February 12, 2021 by Penlan

[Compound2632]

15 minutes ago, Penlan said:

These are the 'Peedie' Barrels in 4mm scale, they equate to 4' 6" (18mm)  & 3' 2" high (12.7mm).

 

Not squat enough for Burton casks, which seem to be about 1:1.2 bilge diameter:height. Also, I think one could do better on the cooperage: those hoops are altogether too chunky. To scale, they hardly stand out from the staves - 1/8" thick? Incidentally, I've learned that the hoops are called the head hoop, quarter hoop, and bilge hoop, working from the end (head) towards the bilge (middle). 

Edited February 12, 2021 by Compound2632

[Penlan]

I ordered some, but not sure where I can place them.   Probably hide them in a truck.... 
I think the larger ones can go to a 7mm layout, somewhere.

[Compound2632]

I've submitted an enquiry to the National Brewery Centre.

[Penrhos1920]

16 hours ago, kandc_au said:

Hi, Can someone confirm the coach in the first pic, is a D4 (listed in Russell  as a D8) Please?
Khris

 

Definitely not a D4.  A @Compound2632says it’s one of the early E series.  The reason is that the royal luggage train coach has 12” eaves, whereas a D4 had 7” eaves.

[kandc_au]

7 hours ago, Penrhos1920 said:

 

Definitely not a D4.  A @Compound2632says it’s one of the early E series.  The reason is that the royal luggage train coach has 12” eaves, whereas a D4 had 7” eaves.

Thanks Richard.......
I am trying to get my head around these things.
Since Compound pointed out the E series I am sitting back on my rear end gobsmacked at all the variations there are that all look alike!
Khris

[wagonman]

On 09/02/2021 at 18:23, phil_sutters said:

This was the best I could do 50 years ago with no reference material for the Newbury wagons. They were dark green if I remember right, or maybe black. Vobster was the village beyond Highbury, which was part of Coleford - Dad's parish in the late '50s.

 

 

Pretty close, though I'd guess the colour was grey, and there was no lettering on the ends. This is of course long after Wainwright sold the colliery.

 

[Compound2632]

Right, back to those wooden brakes for the Saltney wagons...

 

... but there's the postman at the door, parcel from Leytonstone:

 

A couple of fixed-sided opens that will have made their way south via the Waverley route: North British Railway diagrams D55 and D77, Mousa Models kits BWK0701and BWK0700 respectively. Reference to the NBR Study Group's diagram list reveals that D55 covered 4-plank wagons with and without centre side door and of various widths; a quick measurement confirms that this Mousa kit represents the type that became LNER diagram 7B. (Mousa also does a kit for the side door version, LNER diagram 5B.) The 3-plank D77 wagon became LNER diagram 6B. I don't (yet) have the third volume of Tatlow's LNER Wagons so my reference work is J. Hooper, Wagons on the LNER: North British (Irwell Press, 1991). This doesn't have a photo of this type of 4-plank wagon but I'm drawing my inspiration from a couple of photos:

I like the state of the paintwork on that one - most of the grey is long gone except where the white quatrefoil was.

 

For the 3-plank wagon, I'm torn between pristine and well-run-in (to put it mildly):

(On the left, either side if the D299.) There's a photo of another one in similar condition to the grotty 4-plank wagon, in the Hooper book.

 

Question: what could the industrial lowlands of Scotland be producing, that the industrial midlands of England would be wanting?

 

Anyway, here are the kits:

 

 

(I've not shown the floors, packets of buffer heads with springs, spring wire, resin printed NEM sockets, 3-link couplings, or instructions.) These are to what I gather is Bill's latest specification, eschewing etched brass in favour of resin axleguards and sprung bearing carriers. I'm minded to follow the advice Bill gave some pages back to paint (or at least prime) the buffer guides and assemble the sprung buffers before fixing to the (primed or painted) wagon body, so after a tidy-up of any printing pips it'll be primer first all round, once we get the milder weather next week. 

 

I do like the accurate representation of the middle bearers, longitudinals, and diagonals. Note how the middle longitudinals are a bit more widely spaced than the end longitudinals, to fit round the drawbar drag box. I was mildly disappointed to realise that the cut-outs on the underside of the end longitudinals is not to clear the buffer spring (the prototypical leaf one) but to locate the NEM socket.

 

Also, a Midland D370 refrigerator meat van (kit BCK1782):

 

 

(The body and roof are separate items.) Consulting R.J. Essery, Midland Wagons Vol. 1 (OPC, 1980) pp. 146-7, we find that 20 vans were ordered in 1879, then after 13 years another 30 and finally 51 in 1894. There are official photos of examples from the 1879 and 1892 lots. The first batch had wooden brake blocks and ice tank hatches that are more prominent than on the later batches. The latter have many features in common with the longer D372 vans of 1896*, the drawing for which, Drg. 1102, is on the Midland Railway Study Centre website [Item 88-D0192]. The model generally follows the 1892/4 version, though it has the early 8A axleboxes of the 1879 batch. The 1892/4 vans had the Ellis 10A sort. So I'm psyching myself up to a spot of vandalism, replacing the printed axleguards, springs, and boxes with etched and cast replacements. I'm also wondering how one would do the end ladder on a scratch-built D372... it's a delicate and probably fragile piece of resin printing here.

 

*Here's a RTR model:

 

 

Edited June 16, 2022 by Compound2632
Images re-inserted

[Mikkel]

Good looking kits. Having that ladder on the meat van as part of the print seems impressive (but what do I know). 

 

3 hours ago, wagonman said:

Pretty close, though I'd guess the colour was grey, and there was no lettering on the ends. This is of course long after Wainwright sold the colliery.

 

 

Look at those sleepers, not only half buried but they also seem to be different lengths - or is that an illusion?

[Compound2632]

On 15 February 1899, at Sandholme on the Hull & Barnsley Railway, a Lancashire & Yorkshire excursion train returning from Hull to Halifax and Bradford, ran into a wagon that was foul of the line. There were a few minor injuries to passengers. To quote from Lt.-Col. Addison's report: 

 

The waggon with which the train collided was the property of the Midland Railway Company, and was loaded with beer, in barrels.

 

Unfortunately the number of the wagon, which was a write-off, was not recorded.

[Rail-Online]

Removing those support 'studs' for the ladder may be interesting - you certainly do not want to break the ladder!  I would have thought cutting them would put pressure on the ladder as the studs distort before breaking through.  I suppose you could use a very fine fret saw fed through.   Does Bill Bedford recommend a way? 

 

When I scratchbuild ladders I use signal laddering with seperate wire rungs - Colin Waite ones were the first but Wizard do some acceptable ones now I think.

 

Tony

[Compound2632]

1 hour ago, Rail-Online said:

Removing those support 'studs' for the ladder may be interesting - you certainly do not want to break the ladder!  I would have thought cutting them would put pressure on the ladder as the studs distort before breaking through.  I suppose you could use a very fine fret saw fed through. 

 

Indeed. I was wondering if one could get away with leaving them in place.

 

1 hour ago, Rail-Online said:

Does Bill Bedford recommend a way? 

 

@billbedford?

 

1 hour ago, Rail-Online said:

When I scratchbuild ladders I use signal laddering with seperate wire rungs - Colin Waite ones were the first but Wizard do some acceptable ones now I think.

 

Yes, I've been thinking about a companion D372. Signal ladders seems like the way forward but I've been pondering the 90° bend at each end...

[billbedford]

1 hour ago, Rail-Online said:

Removing those support 'studs' for the ladder may be interesting - you certainly do not want to break the ladder!  I would have thought cutting them would put pressure on the ladder as the studs distort before breaking through.  I suppose you could use a very fine fret saw fed through.   Does Bill Bedford recommend a way? 

 

 

Use a really sharp scalpel and cut the end close to the body first. Then the other end can be cut with a pair of flush cutters. 

[Compound2632]

41 minutes ago, billbedford said:

Use a really sharp scalpel and cut the end close to the body first. Then the other end can be cut with a pair of flush cutters. 

 

Thanks!

[Compound2632]

Experimentation with mineral loads continues:

 

 

On the left, Peco real coal (coarse grade); on the right, Woodland Scenics cinder ballast (coarse). Coarse coal is, quite properly, coarser than coarse ballast. The real coal certainly has the highly reflective surfaces characteristic of the harder grades of coal; I will experiment to see if a dry-brushing of gloss varnish helps with the cinders (or with the black-painted grey ballast). 

 

Both these loads were made as demountable cardboard table inserts, with the load applied off-wagon. The card is painted black first. Some experiments showed that just using dilute PVA is a bad idea - the card went soggy - but spreading UHU thickly to glue on a first layer works better, topping up with more coal/ballast and a dribble of dilute PVA. 

 

A clear drawback of the off-wagon loading is that the load doesn't spread evenly up to the edges. I'm a bit reluctant to pour PVA directly into the wagon, with a lead weight attached to the underside of the table, so I'm thinking of a plasticard frame - although I'll need a different size for each type/size of wagon.

Edited June 16, 2022 by Compound2632
image re-inserted

[Guy Rixon]

1 hour ago, Compound2632 said:

Experimentation with mineral loads continues:

 

 

On the left, Peco real coal (coarse grade); on the right, Woodland Scenics cinder ballast (coarse). Coarse coal is, quite properly, coarser than coarse ballast. The real coal certainly has the highly reflective surfaces characteristic of the harder grades of coal; I will experiment to see if a dry-brushing of gloss varnish helps with the cinders (or with the black-painted grey ballast). 

 

Both these loads were made as demountable cardboard table inserts, with the load applied off-wagon. The card is painted black first. Some experiments showed that just using dilute PVA is a bad idea - the card went soggy - but spreading UHU thickly to glue on a first layer works better, topping up with more coal/ballast and a dribble of dilute PVA. 

 

A clear drawback of the off-wagon loading is that the load doesn't spread evenly up to the edges. I'm a bit reluctant to pour PVA directly into the wagon, with a lead weight attached to the underside of the table, so I'm thinking of a plasticard frame - although I'll need a different size for each type/size of wagon.

If you had some very thin, waterproof plastic as a liner, then you could "cast" the load in the wagon and still have it lift  out. The plastic postal wrappers used on some goods posted from China come to mind.

[Guy Rixon]

22 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

Question: what could the industrial lowlands of Scotland be producing, that the industrial midlands of England would be wanting?

From 1907, aluminium from the plant at Fort William. Not lowlands, but definitely NB territory.