More Pre-Grouping Wagons in 4mm - the D299 appreciation thread.

[billbedford]

2 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

I've also added the door stops, vac pipes, and step on the end of the headstock - a little bit of bent brass. 

 

 

 

Looking at the photos in Essery, I don't think that that os a door stop. There is only one per side and they seem to be made out of very thin metal. 

[MR Chuffer]

1 hour ago, Compound2632 said:

Midland 4-plank open

So what diagram is this when its at home? Or is it pre-diagram days?

[Compound2632]

37 minutes ago, billbedford said:

Looking at the photos in Essery, I don't think that that os a door stop. There is only one per side and they seem to be made out of very thin metal. 

 

Beg to differ, it's a chunk of wood, 3" high or so and maybe projecting the same amount or more - compare Plate 218 though my impression is that one sticks out further than the ones in Plates 212 and 217. But now you point it out, it'd probably not a doorstop. I suspect it has to do with the lever door fastener on these cupboard-door meat vans, which is the same design as on LNWR refrigerator vans of the 1880s/90s. A stop block to stop it swinging?

[Schooner]

May I come in?

 

 

A fine kit which I did no credit (it was self-indulgent for me to attempt it, sprung suspension and buffers an' all, as a first attempt), but I wanted to submit my Appreciation Society application

 

 

 

 

[Compound2632]

Excellent. I still have some to assemble of the dozen I bought when they first came out. Those have separate brake levers. You might want to very cautiously snip out the two bits of printer sprue between the lever and the curb rail? Bill's 8A axleboxes are near scale size.

 

Spot the Slater's version in this identity parade:

 

Edited June 16, 2022 by Compound2632
image re-inserted

[Rowsley17D]

I'll bite, second from right?

[Compound2632]

1 hour ago, Rowsley17D said:

I'll bite, second from right?

 

Yes. I'd be interested to know what were the tell-tales?

 

I should say that all four have been given Slater's brake blocks - with my usual upgrade to the safety loops. 

 

The more I look at that photo, the more I think that as well as loading and a bit of weathering, I should go round giving them genuine D299 numbers!

Edited February 27, 2021 by Compound2632

[Schooner]

1 hour ago, Compound2632 said:

You might want to very cautiously snip out the two bits of printer sprue between the lever and the curb rail?

I might

 

I confess. The parts are only dry fitted for now. I've been looking forward to it so much I couldn't resist getting started as soon as I got home...but fully expected to make a horlicks of it, so v much a trial run! 

 

Baseboard construction today, other wagon kits next time (a small selection from Slaters, Cambrian and David Green, to be tackled in that order as I gain experience, before returning to the D299). Step by step, guided by the outstanding information in this thread.

 

Cheers all,

 

Schooner

[Rowsley17D]

12 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

Yes. I'd be interested to know what were the tell-tales?

 

I should say that all four have been given Slater's brake blocks - with my usual upgrade to the safety loops. 

 

The more I look at that photo, the more I think that as well as loading and a bit of weathering, I should go round giving them genuine D299 numbers!

 

It's the way the sides don't sit tight on top of the headstocks and the bolt-head profile is slightly different.

[richbrummitt]

1 hour ago, Rowsley17D said:

 

It's the way the sides don't sit tight on top of the headstocks and the bolt-head profile is slightly different.

 

Didn't spot the bolt head profile but the fit of the headstocks (and they taper - outer to inner face - from the mould process) gave it away to me. Some filler prior to painting would have made it a much harder pick. 

[Compound2632]

On 27/02/2021 at 11:10, Rowsley17D said:

It's the way the sides don't sit tight on top of the headstocks and the bolt-head profile is slightly different.

 

On 27/02/2021 at 12:53, richbrummitt said:

Didn't spot the bolt head profile but the fit of the headstocks (and they taper - outer to inner face - from the mould process) gave it away to me. Some filler prior to painting would have made it a much harder pick. 

 

Yes, I agree the area around the interface of the headstocks and curb rail is a weakness. Otherwise, the injection-moulded parts are crisper and better-defined than on the resin print - especially the door catches. Each technology has its strengths and weaknesses.

 

For the 4-plank wagon, using a new blade and great care I was able to scrape off the door latches etc. and re-locate them one plank lower. Still needs a bit of tidying:

 

 

 

Edited June 16, 2022 by Compound2632
image re-inserted

[airnimal]

I hope you don't mind if I interrupt and post my S7 scratch built M.R refrigerator van on your thread.

I don't have it anymore because it was converted to fine scale and sold to a London collector. 

[Compound2632]

12 minutes ago, airnimal said:

I hope you don't mind if I interrupt and post my S7 scratch built M.R refrigerator van on your thread.

 

Any wagon of yours is an honoured visitor here! 

 

D395 of 1910/11. Out of curiosity, did you have any evidence for the number 2419 or did you just pick a number close to 2422, the subject of the official photo?

[Rail-Online]

23 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

Yes. I'd be interested to know what were the tell-tales?

 

 

The planks are much better defined on the Slaters kit.

 

Tony

[billbedford]

I think you mean over-scale...

[airnimal]

Compound 2632,  I just used a number as close to the wagon in the official photograph.  I have no evidence that it is real or not. I was given a set of Slaters etched W-irons for these wagons and just looked for a wagon that they would fit. I modified the W-irons by removing one side and soldiering a piece of brass L section on and tapping them with 12 BA screws so I could change the wheels without completely destroying previous work. I never understood why 7mm wagon bearings are so long that make fold etch W-irons hard work to make. 

[MikeOxon]

58 minutes ago, billbedford said:

I think you mean over-scale...

It's an interesting point, Bill when modelling in the smaller scales.  Do we want details that are obvious on the prototype to be visible at normal viewing distance on small models?   A dilemma often arises with lining, when very fine lines become invisible, which affects the overall impression, especially when they are bright colours such as vermilion. 

 

I have often described myself as an 'impressionist' modeller, since there are many difficulties associated with attempting to reproduce small details exactly at small scales.

[Mikkel]

 

 

Extract from: https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/blogs/entry/5109-railway-modelling-and-art/

 

Edited February 28, 2021 by Mikkel

[Compound2632]

Thank you, gentlemen, for your thoroughly Edwardian philosophy (and moustaches). 

 

The pragmatist will, I think, seek to approach as close to scale realism as materials and skill will permit, whilst recognising that there are inevitable compromises. It is a matter of individual choice where those compromises are made. Dead scale features may become so insignificant on the model that they detract from the impression, on the other hand, exaggeration can also be fatal. Those moustaches seem to me to find the happy mean.

 

In the particular case that triggered this discussion, the side sheeting of wagons to Midland C&W DO Drg. 550, the chamfer on the upper outside edge is not dimensioned but scaling from the drawing is around ⅜" - ½" - that is, 0.13 mm - 0.17 mm. Measuring with the vernier caliper, on the Slater's model it's about 0.25 mm. It's also a square groove, rather than the prototype's 45° on the top of the plank. 

 

Among injection-moulded kits (to say nothing of RTR wagons) there are many worse, and some better. The tooling for many of those that are worse was made much more recently than the 1970s vintage of the Slater's tooling. 

 

It would be interesting to know how the 7 mm scale version of the kit measures up.

 

Edited February 28, 2021 by Compound2632

[Regularity]

56 minutes ago, MikeOxon said:

It's an interesting point, Bill when modelling in the smaller scales.  Do we want details that are obvious on the prototype to be visible at normal viewing distance on small models?   A dilemma often arises with lining, when very fine lines become invisible, which affects the overall impression, especially when they are bright colours such as vermilion. 

Always a difficult - and ultimately personal - decision.

As an example, a well-pointed brick wall will be virtually flat, with a little bit of brick overhanging the top of a mortar line, with the latter tapering to the top of the brick below. Even the depth of a rough faced brick is not much. And yet, we know that brick walls are not perfectly flat, so brick paper can appear unconvincing, but scribe some relief onto it, such as Peter Denny did with only the horizontal courses, and it is transformed, into something which is actually less realistic, but which creates at the same time a more realistic impression.

[billbedford]

30 minutes ago, MikeOxon said:

It's an interesting point, Bill when modelling in the smaller scales.  Do we want details that are obvious on the prototype to be visible at normal viewing distance on small models?   

 

Can you see the plank edges in the photo?

 

 

..and if you can won't they be best represented by a thin dark wash when weathering?

 

32 minutes ago, MikeOxon said:

A dilemma often arises with lining, when very fine lines become invisible, which affects the overall impression, especially when they are bright colours such as vermilion.

 

The eye sees things differently to a photograph. There a was a lecturer at Bradford Art College while I was there, who used to design carpets that appeared to have 8 or 10 colours but were made from only 4 coloured yarns. Placing one colour line close to a second colour gave the illusion of a third colour. I have used this when I had some GNR coaches painted. The GNR lining was a 1/4" primrose yellow line bordered on both sides by a 1/8" royal blue one. The painter decided that a scale line 1/8" wide was not possible so we compromised with the thinest line he could manage from a greenish yellow colour. This worked very well, it just gave the impression of yellow and blue together. 

[Compound2632]

I have posed a question in a relevant topic but am linking to it here for maximum exposure. Replies there would be preferred!

 

Edited March 2, 2021 by Compound2632

[Compound2632]

@billbedford dutifully replied there but the point he makes is general and so I think better discussed here!

  

10 minutes ago, billbedford said:

The usual repair cycle is often stated as 7-10 years,

 

Indeed, but upon what evidence?

 

The only piece of evidence I know of is the history of NSR wagon No. 2995, reported by Chadwick in his book on NSR wagons, quoting from the report into an accident at Waleswood on the GCR in 1907, which can be read here. This wagon, built in 1864, had had heavy repairs in 1878, 1881, 1884, and 1903. In addition it had had new headstocks fitted in 1893 and new buffers in 1899 - the first of those at least sounds "heavy" to me. It was lifted and given new bearing brasses in 1897 and 1907 (just six months before it disintegrated, causing the accident) with new axleboxes and axleguards on the first occasion. It had "slight" repairs in 1890 and 1891. So the longest period without any attention (apart from the first 14 years, which may reflect a lack of information) is 6 years, 1884-1890. Otherwise it was receiving attention of some sort every 3-4 years. But without additional data, we have no way of assessing whether this wagon was typical.

 

[billbedford]

It was a guess, based on the fact that the pre-grouping companies had no was of tracking wagons. So maintenance could not have been preemptive and must have been on the basis of repairing known defects. 

 

John Hopper gives some figures for the NBR. The total number of wagons in a 1920 census was 58404*. the approximate number of wagons having heavy repairs in 1919 was 5824 with 67300 having light repairs. Which suggests, in the years just after WW1, a wagon could expect a heavy repair on average every 10 years and a light repair every ten and a half months. 

 

*There were also 1480 wagons on the books, but missed by the census. 

 

Oh and...

 

The reason graphic designs painted on wagon were called 'illiteracy symbols' was because the word 'logo' as applied to such signs was not invented until 1937. 

 

 

[Compound2632]

4 minutes ago, billbedford said:

John Hopper gives some figures for the NBR. The total number of wagons in a 1920 census was 58404*. the approximate number of wagons having heavy repairs in 1919 was 5824 with 67300 having light repairs. Which suggests, in the years just after WW1, a wagon could expect a heavy repair on average every 10 years and a light repair every ten and a half months. 

 

*There were also 1480 wagons on the books, but missed by the census. 

 

Bah, yes, right under my nose! Taking these figures and the ones in the section "Government enquiries" on p. 9:

 

30 June 1914: 59,897 of which 2,194 had a heavy repair in the preceding six months => heavy repair every 13 years 8 months.

30 June 1919: 56,948 of which 3,713 ditto => heavy repair every 7 years 8 months.

31 December 1921 (p. 6): 56,444 of which 6,122 had heavy repair in the year => 9 years 3 months.

 

So yes, around ten years.

 

The number of light repairs per annum seems to have fluctuated rather more. As a percentage of stock: 1914: 169%; 1919: 120%; 1921: 172%. The 1919 figures might reflect a concentration on overdue heavy repairs after the war. But the number of wagons awaiting repair daily, on average, was about the  same in 1914 and 1919 - just over 1,500, or around 2.5% of stock. That doesn't seem a very big improvement over the situation in 1901/2, when there were around 2,000 wagons awaiting repair, generating considerable anxiety.

 

Of course there's still the vexed question of how far these figures from the second decade of the twentieth century can be taken as also applying to the rather more prosperous conditions of the 1890s.