More Pre-Grouping Wagons in 4mm - the D299 appreciation thread.

[Compound2632]

4 minutes ago, richbrummitt said:

Wow. IMHO That is awful. I'm glad I'm not working in 4mm.

 

It would might be tolerable if the base wagon was half decent. Then at least one could spend father's day removing the printed decoration and turning it into something useful.

[Dave Hunt]

9 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

Do not, on any pretext, show this to either of my sons. 

 

Do you mean to suggest that the Lea offspring are tasteless nurks Stephen? I think that I would regard such a gift as proof that my sons should justifiably be cut out of my will completely.

 

Dave

[Siberian Snooper]

I started a Chance and Hunt salt wagon at the club last night, I don't know what the kit number is, but I will recover the destructions and scan them and email it to them.

 

[Dave Hunt]

A Chance and Hunt wagon. What a fine piece of rolling stock to grace any layout.

 

Dave

[Onehalfpint13]

6 minutes ago, Siberian Snooper said:

I started a Chance and Hunt salt wagon at the club last night, I don't know what the kit number is, but I will recover the destructions and scan them and email it to them.

 

That will be a big help thank you if you email them to slaters@slatersplastikard.com 

mill let them know you’ll do that 

a big thank you for all your help 

[Compound2632]

1 hour ago, Dave Hunt said:

A Chance and Hunt wagon. What a fine piece of rolling stock to grace any layout.

 

Dave

 

Chance & Hunt is still going, in Runcorn I believe, producing non-hazardous products for sewage treatment - a far cry from their hey-day as one of the biggest polluters in the West Midlands. The site of their Oldbury chemical works lies under the M5/M6 junction, which is just as well as the land would be unfit for any other use.

 

Meanwhile, on my to-do list.

[Jol Wilkinson]

13 hours ago, Nile said:

A rarity found on the CC stand, proving he did have some of the etches.

 

Dunn may have been able to obtain etches direct from the etchers (if Slaters don't do their own, most suppliers use one of the regular etchers who supply the model trade). Presumably permission to do so would have been part of the contract with Slaters.

 

On the other hand, I believe that Slaters were going to continue to produce the plastic moulded items and supply these to Dunn. That would also fit in with the continued supply of Slaters  PO wagons to POWsides.

[Compound2632]

32 minutes ago, Jol Wilkinson said:

Dunn may have been able to obtain etches direct from the etchers (if Slaters don't do their own, most suppliers use one of the regular etchers who supply the model trade). Presumably permission to do so would have been part of the contract with Slaters.

 

On the other hand, I believe that Slaters were going to continue to produce the plastic moulded items and supply these to Dunn. That would also fit in with the continued supply of Slaters  PO wagons to POWsides.

 

Your second point is what I had gathered - the moulds were never in Dunn's hands. I also formed the impression that supply of the metal parts formed part of the legal dispute - but that's purely my speculation. 

 

I have also supposed that Slaters took possession of the moulds for the Coopercraft 7 mm range, which would explain why they're still available through Slaters. It's a great shame they didn't acquire the 4 mm moulds too but at the time they were evidently aiming to focus on 7 mm.

[Nile]

I think that was the general idea. CC would deal with the 4mm stuff, Slater's with the 7mm stuff, of both brands.

[Dave Hunt]

Slaters do their own etching and it is correct to say that they were intending to concentrate on 7mm and above scales.

 

And since I was born in Runcorn, Chance & Hunt seems doubly apposite. Mind you, I'm not sure I would approve of the pollution.

 

Dave

[Siberian Snooper]

6 hours ago, Onehalfpint13 said:

That will be a big help thank you if you email them to slaters@slatersplastikard.com 

mill let them know you’ll do that 

a big thank you for all your help 

 

Email with the destructions has been sent.

 

 

[Asterix2012]

5 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

Chance & Hunt is still going, in Runcorn I believe, producing non-hazardous products for sewage treatment - a far cry from their hey-day as one of the biggest polluters in the West Midlands. The site of their Oldbury chemical works lies under the M5/M6 junction, which is just as well as the land would be unfit for any other use.

 

Meanwhile, on my to-do list.

Your link prompted me to buy a couple of different photographs of Smith Hood wagons 

https://hmrs.org.uk/photographs/smith-hood-dundee-8t-4-plank-s-e-256-op-1897-f3r-no-reg-plate-paint-date-15-09-1897.html

 

I have been looking for photos of these thanks for the inspiration to check this site

[Compound2632]

31 minutes ago, Asterix2012 said:

Your link prompted me to buy a couple of different photographs of Smith Hood wagons 

https://hmrs.org.uk/photographs/smith-hood-dundee-8t-4-plank-s-e-256-op-1897-f3r-no-reg-plate-paint-date-15-09-1897.html

 

I have been looking for photos of these thanks for the inspiration to check this site

 

R.Y. Pickering have turned out an interesting wagon for 1897 there - steel underframe and an unusual arrangement of the end door. What is the significance of NB on the axleboxes? The firm was a coal merchant, I gather from a swift google.

[Asterix2012]

2 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

R.Y. Pickering have turned out an interesting wagon for 1897 there - steel underframe and an unusual arrangement of the end door. What is the significance of NB on the axleboxes? The firm was a coal merchant, I gather from a swift google.

One of the largest coal merchants in Dundee and still significant into the 1970’s at least, one of the roads in the old Caledonian shed was known as “Smith Hood “ as it was adjacent to their part of the yard.

 

They had an office in the town centre with a large model wagon in the window in full livery.

 

Could the NB have something to do with the North British railway?  I know they had “Thirling” agreements with a number of collieries and coal merchants.

 

[Compound2632]

Just now, Asterix2012 said:

Could the NB have something to do with the North British railway?  I know they had “Thirling” agreements with a number of collieries and coal merchants.

 

Yes, that's what I wondered about. But Hooper's book* has photos of NBR mineral wagons on hire to**, and painted up for, various collieries; these all have NBR numberplates and the characteristic Scottish end door with its horizontal timber bracing. 

 

*J. Hooper, Wagons on the LNER: North British (Irwell Press, 1991)

 

**Which is how I understand thirling, in so far as I do - an obligation to use the Lord of the Manor's mill, or, in this case, the railway's wagons.

[Asterix2012]

42 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

Yes, that's what I wondered about. But Hooper's book* has photos of NBR mineral wagons on hire to**, and painted up for, various collieries; these all have NBR numberplates and the characteristic Scottish end door with its horizontal timber bracing. 

 

*J. Hooper, Wagons on the LNER: North British (Irwell Press, 1991)

 

**Which is how I understand thirling, in so far as I do - an obligation to use the Lord of the Manor's mill, or, in this case, the railway's wagons.

This is the second one, 10ton 6 plank this time 

https://hmrs.org.uk/photographs/smith-hood-dundee-10t-6-plank-s-e-228-op-f3r-regd-caley-8553-1897-paint-date-14-01-1897-age-neg-39026.html

 

this one was registered in the Caledonian but axle boxes also appear to show NB.

[Compound2632]

11 minutes ago, Asterix2012 said:

This is the second one, 10ton 6 plank this time 

https://hmrs.org.uk/photographs/smith-hood-dundee-10t-6-plank-s-e-228-op-f3r-regd-caley-8553-1897-paint-date-14-01-1897-age-neg-39026.html

 

this one was registered in the Caledonian but axle boxes also appear to show NB.

 

Looking at some other HMRS photos of Pickering wagon, I think it's the axlebox type: N (for number) 6 (or possibly 8).

[Asterix2012]

24 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

Looking at some other HMRS photos of Pickering wagon, I think it's the axlebox type: N (for number) 6 (or possibly 8).

I will have a look when I get the prints, may be a bit clearer but I think you have it.

[Compound2632]

Earlier this year we had a discussion about Burton beer cask sizes, Burton beer being a staple traffic on the Midland. I said I'd made an enquiry of the National Brewery Centre; I've just had a reply back from their collections officer, Vanessa Winstone, with a copy of what in railway terms would be a "diagram" - simple dimensioned sketches of the casks used by Bass, Ratcliff & Gretton Ltd. It's undated but presumably pre-dates the 1927 merger of Bass, Ratcliff & Gretton with Worthington, after which the firm was Bass & Worthington, if I have understood Grace's Guide correctly.

 

Anyway, we have:

• Barrel: 36 gal, 117 lb empty, 477 lb full; height 2'8¼", waist diameter 2'1¾", end diameter 1'9¼" (all external dimensions).
• Hogshead: 54 gal, 152 lb empty, 692 lb full; height 3'1½", waist 2'4½", end 1'11¼".
• Butt: 108 gal, 234 lb empty, 1314 lb full; height 4'4", waist 2'9", end 2'2¼".

A Midland D299 8 ton high side wagon has internal dimensions 14'0" x 7'0" x 2'10¾" deep. Therefore, if one sees a D299 with beer casks loaded upright just below the top of the sides, they're barrels but if they stick up above the sides by a whisker, they're hogsheads. There could be 18 barrels in a wagon, three rows of six, but only 17 hogsheads, arranged 6-5-6 with a bit of jostling. Weight of the latter, when full, would be around 5¼ tons.

 

For completeness, the smaller sizes:

• Half-Hogshead: 27 gal, 100 lb empty, 370 lb full; height 2'5½", waist 2'0½", end 1'7½".
• Kilderkin: 18 gal, 74 lb empty, 256 lb full; height 2'1⅜", waist 1'10", end 1'5¼".
• Firkin: 9 gal, 42 lb empty, 132 lb full; height 1'9", waist 1'5¼", end 1'2".
• Pin: 4½ gal, 27 lb empty, 65 lb full; height 1'5", waist 1'2", end 11½".

 

 

 

[Siberian Snooper]

On 26/05/2021 at 08:28, Onehalfpint13 said:

That will be a big help thank you if you email them to slaters@slatersplastikard.com 

mill let them know you’ll do that 

a big thank you for all your help 

 

On 26/05/2021 at 14:38, Siberian Snooper said:

 

Email with the destructions has been sent.

 

 

 

 

I've not heard if the email with the destructions has been received by Slaters.

 

 

[Rail-Online]

I cannot recall if I have added this pic of a D299 to the thread before.  SECR Longhedge shed 1920 on loco coal duties and 'pooled' by then.

 

 

Tony

[Compound2632]

28 minutes ago, Rail-Online said:

I cannot recall if I have added this pic of a D299 to the thread before.  SECR Longhedge shed 1920 on loco coal duties and 'pooled' by then.

 

You did, sometime last year I think! The number was duly added to my little list. As you say, pooled, so no surprise seeing it in use for loco coal at a Chatham, which once upon a time would have been the preserve of Stephenson Clarke wagons, I believe. Or was that only the Brighton an the South Western?

 

A couple of details I may not have spotted before. Split-spoke wheels - possibly not the ones it was originally given since the Midland usually used cast wheel centres. Along the bottom of the solebar the circular sheet tie cleats can be seen, one just to the left of the doorstop, one above the axlebox but these have been supplemented by hoops just below the siderail. I think the circular cleat next to the doorstop was originally fixed on the centre-line but has been displaced by the doorstop. There are some signs of age, such as a horizontal split in the end of the headstock. There was a point of weakness where the strap-bolt holding the headstock to the solebar passed through the headstock just a few inches from the end. On private owner wagons, one often sees an iron hoop around the end of the headstock to prevent such splitting.

[Edwardian]

11 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

You did, sometime last year I think! The number was duly added to my little list. As you say, pooled, so no surprise seeing it in use for loco coal at a Chatham, which once upon a time would have been the preserve of Stephenson Clarke wagons, I believe. Or was that only the Brighton an the South Western?

 

A couple of details I may not have spotted before. Split-spoke wheels - possibly not the ones it was originally given since the Midland usually used cast wheel centres. Along the bottom of the solebar the circular sheet tie cleats can be seen, one just to the left of the doorstop, one above the axlebox but these have been supplemented by hoops just below the siderail. I think the circular cleat next to the doorstop was originally fixed on the centre-line but has been displaced by the doorstop. There are some signs of age, such as a horizontal split in the end of the headstock. There was a point of weakness where the strap-bolt holding the headstock to the solebar passed through the headstock just a few inches from the end. On private owner wagons, one often sees an iron hoop around the end of the headstock to prevent such splitting.

 

No spring stops on these wagons?

[billbedford]

8 minutes ago, Edwardian said:

 

No spring stops on these wagons?

 

Spring stops tended to be fitted to steel framed wagon. I'm not sure why. 

[Compound2632]

8 minutes ago, Edwardian said:

 

No spring stops on these wagons?

 

No, not at all on Midland wagons. 

 

19th century LNWR wagons didn't have them either but the larger wagons built from c. 1905 onwards had them, e.g. the D84 opens. Similar story on the L&Y. I've not looked in Tatlow or Bixley et al.