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More Pre-Grouping Wagons in 4mm - the D299 appreciation thread.


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38 minutes ago, A Murphy said:

Given the price point, I think the Oxford version is really good value for money.

 

As a representation of an RCH 1923 wagon in post-war condition, maybe. But not as a representation of a pre-1923 10 ton wagon, which is how it is being passed off in this instance.

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To be honest it was the fact that I saw the subject whilst browsing the Hattons website looking at the Oxford wagons and knew they had done a Coventry one.

 

I've only bought a couple of the Oxford PO wagons when they first came out. I never bothered with any of the rest as they were making silly, avoidable mistakes such as with the GWR brake and the LNER cattle wagon.

 

My interest was renewed as they did a decent job with the tankers, and the GER vans and Pilchards look interesting even though there might be livery issues. But you can't really complain at the price. £13 for a van or bogie wagon? Even if they need a total repaint that's pretty good value.

 

 

Psst. Yes I know the Pilchards aren't pre grouping era. Even though they look like with all that painted iron work.  Which in reality was a black wagon with replacement planks. :prankster:

 

https://www.hattons.co.uk/newsdetail.aspx?id=695

 

 

Jason

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On 07/06/2021 at 17:57, Northroader said:

These two should meet your exacting specification better, then, sir?

 

Too late! Too late! Not sure about the Ansley Hall wagon but the Gloucester builder's board in the Arley Colliery wagon says 1913. They've both got both-side brakes, for heaven's sake! Far too much modernity - we'll have people posting photos of 16 tonners here next, saints* preserve us!

 

This one gets in by a whisker:

 

1421324739_GloucesterStockingfordwagon.JPG.01d329d38fe5f2d2aef7944720ed7a18.JPG

 

*Other locomotive classes, even non-Great Western ones, are available.

 

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I know this is way off topic for this thread (which is one of the most consistently interesting and enlightening on RMWeb IMO) but just for the record: Bachmann do a number of alternate bodies for the RCH 1923 minerals - the seven plank side and end door has the capping clips making it only really suitable for post war, but the seven plank side door and eight plank side and end door versions both come without the clips.

 

Mike

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15 minutes ago, 37079 said:

Bachmann do a number of alternate bodies for the RCH 1923 minerals - the seven plank side and end door has the capping clips making it only really suitable for post war, but the seven plank side door and eight plank side and end door versions both come without the clips.

 

Thanks, that explains. I think most of the ones I have (yes, I do, I confess) are side door only ones.

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11 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

They've both got both-side brakes, for heaven's sake! Far too much modernity

 

Brakes? When I was a lad, we didn't have brakes. Here's something to soothe the pain Stephen. I hope the 1500s is early enough :) 

 

gettyimages-90747810-2048x2048.jpg.d900c02bc31f83473983f1a83afaf6bb.jpg

 

Caption: Plate taken from 'De Re Metallica' (1556) by Georgius Agricola (1494-1555). Agricola (real name Georg Bauer) was born in Saxony and is now considered the founder of geology as a discipline. His greatest work, 'De Re Metallica' ('On the Nature of Metals'), was postumously published in 1556, representing a major review of mining methods and becoming the standard text on the subject for two centuries. Through text and illustrations, it detailed equipment, machinery and transportation methods used to extract and process ore. Getty Images, embedding permitted.

 

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On 08/06/2021 at 06:05, Mikkel said:

Brakes? When I was a lad, we didn't have brakes. Here's something to soothe the pain Stephen. I hope the 1500s is early enough :) 

 

Those are prototypes for the Scalextric system, aren't they?

 

Speaking of brakes, I'd stopped with my Oxford Rail AA3 upgrade because I was unhappy with the grey I was using. I've had a shot at mixing a colour-neutral flat dark grey by mixing a few drops of Humbrol 24 matt white into an old tin of 33 matt black, with a dose of thinners. (Looking back, I see cream rather than white was suggested.) Coverage isn't brilliant but I think I'm getting to a shade I'm happy with. The strong lighting for this photo makes it look a lighter grey than it actually is to my eyes:

 

308455276_GWAA3darkgrey1.JPG.6214a69e3bdc23a1e2a838ca3e14a793.JPG

 

I have some questions about pre-1904 livery. My best reference photo for early condition in fact shows a brake with 25" G W. Lettering on the four body sections between the vertical framing is, above waist height:

 

I      G      I              I DEPOT I     W     I

 

and on the second plank from the bottom:

 

I number I guard's name I           I tare I

 

I assume this would be the same on the other side.

 

I had expected that the pre-1904 livery would be similar with the small G.W.R in the blank space on the second plank up but the only good photo I can find online, of an AA1 with cast plates, omits the guard's name and tare. That simplifies matters, but is it typical?

 

The example in my favourite Huntley & Palmers photo is no help:

 

301310977_HPlocoandwagonsbrakevancrop.jpg.4a2be27647c0cabca0543a8c308d6ac1.jpg

 

Though I note the side-lamp.

 

Does anyone have any better information? 

 

I'm thinking of picking a number from a lot late in old series or early in the new - built c. 1893 - to avoid the cast plates; according to the allocation list I've got (which I think I had from @Miss Prism) No. 35817 (old series Lot 432), No. 10100 (old series Lot 492), and Nos. 56002 and 56013 (old series Lot 680) were allocated to Oxley Sidings at various dates in the 1930s and 40s, which is good enough for me, given the unlikelihood of finding any allocations closer to my c. 1902 date. Oxley Sidings seems a likely starting point for a Great Western goods train running over Midland metals in the South Staffordshire / North Warwickshire area.

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Earlier today while looking through a old BRJ - Special London & Birmingham Railway Edition - I stumbled on a picture of Harrow goods yard. An extract appears below - looks like a bit like a D299fest to me.

 

337216854_HarrowGoodsYard.jpg.89b370e0e61e0ba152fafaea7db9e061.jpg

The photo was dated to before 1910 as, according to the caption, it predates the construction of the New Line that started in that year.

 

Hopefully there is something of interest.

 

 

Crimson Rambler

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1 hour ago, Compound2632 said:

 

Those are prototypes for the Scalextric system, aren't they?

 

Speaking of brakes, I'd stopped with my Oxford Rail AA3 upgrade because I was unhappy with the grey I was using. I've had a shot at mixing a colour-neutral flat dark grey by mixing a few drops of Humbrol 24 matt white into an old tin of 33 matt black, with a dose of thinners. (Looking back, I see cream rather than white was suggested.) Coverage isn't brilliant but I think I'm getting to a shade I'm happy with. The strong lighting for this photo makes it look a lighter grey than it actually is to my eyes:

 

481155025_GWAA3darkgrey1.JPG.db3813ba69affb2e76fb73637908d5f0.JPG

 

I have some questions about pre-1904 livery. My best reference photo for early condition in fact shows a brake with 25" G W. Lettering on the four body sections between the vertical framing is, above waist height:

 

I      G      I              I DEPOT I     W     I

 

and on the second plank from the bottom:

 

I number I guard's name I           I tare I

 

I assume this would be the same on the other side.

 

I had expected that the pre-1904 livery would be similar with the small G.W.R in the blank space on the second plank up but the only good photo I can find online, of an AA1 with cast plates, omits the guard's name and tare. That simplifies matters, but is it typical?

 

Had a look through selected books, haven't found any photos of pre-1904 AA3s with clear lettering yet. Or any other photos of one with cast plates.

 

Atkins, Beard and Tourret have osL355 No. 12009 of July 1886 photographed in 1900 with the small GWR on the left hand side (p4646 combined vol).  Atkins' GWR Goods Train Working Vol 1 p93 have open veranda no. 17770 with pre-1903 lamps (no exact date) also with the small GWR, also left hand side. The lettering on ordinary wagons was moved to the right hands in 1894, but as brake vans were handed that would put the small GWR in the awkward diagonal on one side, so I'm assuming that the rule will not have applied to brake vans.

 

Will keep looking.

 

 

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2 hours ago, Crimson Rambler said:

Earlier today while looking through a old BRJ - Special London & Birmingham Railway Edition - I stumbled on a picture of Harrow goods yard. An extract appears below - looks like a bit like a D299fest to me.

 

Yes, all empty. I wonder what led to their being such an agglomeration at Harrow? In the rear row, the one on the end, partly hidden by the LNWR D32 or D33 covered goods wagon, is a Great Northern open.

 

To the left of that covered goods, I think probably a sheeted LNWR D4 4-plank open, then a Wm Cory & Sons wagon - a more modern one than this one:

 

image.png.30422d950cd95498680b0b8f91891759.png

 

(There's another Cory wagon over to the left and possibly another in the background behind that.) Then a LNWR D2 2-plank open and a larger LNWR wagon loaded with timber - D84. Then behind the signal another PO wagon and to its left a couple of dumb-buffered PO wagons with shallower sides. I'm a bit puzzled by the covered goods wagon in the background - it looks like a D32 or D32 but lacks the roof hatch. Meat Vans etc. have X-framing, so that's not it.

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4 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

I had expected that the pre-1904 livery would be similar with the small G.W.R in the blank space on the second plank up but the only good photo I can find online, of an AA1 with cast plates, omits the guard's name and tare. That simplifies matters, but is it typical?

HMRS's "Great Western Way" (JN Slinn) suggests that perhaps it isn't typical:  "The home station of brake vans was indicated on a similar plate, near central on the sides about four planks down from the roof.  The guard's name... continued to be written in italic script level with the number, two planks up from the bottom.  The plates were the depth of a plank and their length depended, of course, on what they carried." (pages 93 - 96). This description fits the AA1 van which you refer to for the number and the "GWR" but suggests that the guard's name should also be present.  The AA1 van appears to have a painted allocation name where Slinn suggests a plate (referencing an earlier description in the same paragraph of cast plates being grey painted with letters picked out in white). Cast plates continued to be fitted to new stock until 1903 (Slinn again) and I think the AA3s were completed by 1902 but I can't say I've seen any pictures of brake van allocation names on a cast plate. (I happen to have been looking into all this as I'm refurbishing/correcting an AA1 van at the moment, but to 1927 rather than earlier).  

 

Kit PW

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13 hours ago, Mikkel said:

 

Had a look through selected books, haven't found any photos of pre-1904 AA3s with clear lettering yet. Or any other photos of one with cast plates.

 

Atkins, Beard and Tourret have osL355 No. 12009 of July 1886 photographed in 1900 with the small GWR on the left hand side (p4646 combined vol).  Atkins' GWR Goods Train Working Vol 1 p93 have open veranda no. 17770 with pre-1903 lamps (no exact date) also with the small GWR, also left hand side. The lettering on ordinary wagons was moved to the right hands in 1894, but as brake vans were handed that would put the small GWR in the awkward diagonal on one side, so I'm assuming that the rule will not have applied to brake vans.

 

Will keep looking.

 

10 hours ago, kitpw said:

HMRS's "Great Western Way" (JN Slinn) suggests that perhaps it isn't typical:  "The home station of brake vans was indicated on a similar plate, near central on the sides about four planks down from the roof.  The guard's name... continued to be written in italic script level with the number, two planks up from the bottom.  The plates were the depth of a plank and their length depended, of course, on what they carried." (pages 93 - 96). This description fits the AA1 van which you refer to for the number and the "GWR" but suggests that the guard's name should also be present.  The AA1 van appears to have a painted allocation name where Slinn suggests a plate (referencing an earlier description in the same paragraph of cast plates being grey painted with letters picked out in white). Cast plates continued to be fitted to new stock until 1903 (Slinn again) and I think the AA3s were completed by 1902 but I can't say I've seen any pictures of brake van allocation names on a cast plate. (I happen to have been looking into all this as I'm refurbishing/correcting an AA1 van at the moment, but to 1927 rather than earlier).  

 

Kit PW

 

Thanks both; I don't have Atkins (although I can borrow the 3rd edition from time to time) or Slinn, so this is most helpful. I'd not thought that a pre-1894-built brake would have started out with the G.W.R. to the left and might still be so lettered c. 1902. @Mikkel, Nos. 12009 and 17770 are both outside wood-framed brakes so it's not immediately obvious how their lettering layout translates to the classic toad body with four vertical sections. I've not seen any sign of lettering on the verandah side at any period, except for the XP branding on a preserved vehicle painted in late GW livery (No. 17410 at the SVR). 

 

Slinn's information about cast plates for the depot name is interesting. I do wonder what the sources of his information are, other than photos. His statement that cast plates were fitted to new stock until 1903 is contradicted by photographic evidence as there are photos of O2 No. 29301 of Lot 496 (1905) and O10 No. 78499 of Lot 522 with cast numberplates and 25" GW in the 1920 Appendix (but very probably re-used from an earlier edition). I have these in screen grabs of dodgy photos posted on Facebook by one Christopher Gwilliam, that @Mikkel sent me and also No. 29301 in a scan of a page from Atkins, Plate 387. In his notes to the photo of 78499, Gwilliam notes a photo of O10 No. 29617 in Atkins, Plate 388, which he says is a later example and thus deduces a cut-off date for cast plates. That can't be right as according to my notes from Atkins, it's from an earlier lot, Lot 509 and also the photo is captioned in Atkins as taken in 1920, and the wagon is clearly freshly painted, so if it had started out with a cast numberplate it likely lost it at repainting. So in short, having seen evidence that contradicts Slinn, my confidence in other things he says is undermined!

 

Anyway, I'm hoping to pick an AA3 that probably didn't have plates, since I've run out of my small stock of the Coopercraft ones.

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On 07/06/2021 at 14:16, Compound2632 said:

Bachmann have given theirs the Cc and star symbols - post-Grouping wagons not really being my thing I don't keep in my head exactly which means what or when they came in.

 

Just for the record, the Cc mark came in in 1926 and the star in 1933. The former cost 1s. per wagon per annum (in 1930) and was to cover all shunting and siding charges; the 1933 scheme cost 1s 9d per wagon per year and was to "cover all charges incurred in moving wagons from one point to another for the purposes of loading, repairs or other purposes beyond the usual journey regulations". The idea was to minimise clerical overheads.

 

All this, and more, in Chapter 1 of "The Private Owner Wagons of Somerset"...  

 

PS: Wiltshire volume just published.  [/shameless plug]

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Stephen: probably of little use but you may be able to glean more from the two references below than I can - one is from Getty images, the other from "Disused Stations" so you'll need to trawl through to find the Toad!  The allocation names being on cast plates sounds wrong to me:  I can understand that the wagon shop fitted numbers and "GWR" as cast plates, they wouldn't have expected either to change, but allocations?  They certainly did, just as the guards almost certainly did as well - much more likely to have been painted. 

 

http://www.disused-stations.org.uk/l/llanpumpsaint/
https://www.gettyimages.co.uk/detail/news-photo/apple-carts-and-goods-trains-of-the-great-western-railway-news-photo/141021170?adppopup=true

 

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James Snowdon appears to have formed an opinion on 1901-04 period, see livery drawing in the article uploaded by bécasse in this post (and scroll up a few posts for John Lewis articles, though the photos aren't quite what you need). I suspect his is a theoretical position though (were cast plates really used that widely etc).

 

 

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9 minutes ago, Siberian Snooper said:

Does the MR learned membership have any comment(s) on Precision Paints Midland freight grey? I have just opened a tinlet to paint a few wagons in post WW1 grey and it seems to have a green tinge about it. 

 

It does, doesn't it? I have no idea what there thinking is. (Any more explicit comment would be censored.) I use their LMS Freight Stock grey - historically identical to MR wagon grey, at least up to the mid 1930s - which seems to me to be a good representation of a neutral light lead grey (no colour tinge either to blue or yellow). That seems to me to be right for newly painted wagons, though one should then darken it by varying degrees for wagons that have been in traffic for various lengths of time.

 

If you are thinking of representing the post-Great War "smudge" that was made using left-over battleship grey, have in mind that that is said only to have been used for repaints, not for newly-constructed wagons.

 

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2 minutes ago, Siberian Snooper said:

Does the MR learned membership have any comment(s) on Precision Paints Midland freight grey? I have just opened a tinlet to paint a few wagons in post WW1 grey and it seems to have a green tinge about it. 

 

 

 

The old Humbrol "Authentic" enamel LMS wagon grey paint was the same colour if that helps.  :)

 

I bought a tin of the MR grey to replace the Humbrol LMS version as it was recommended in a magazine article and you can't tell the difference.

 

The Precision LMS one seems too grey to me, more closer to BR grey. 

 

https://www.phoenix-paints.co.uk/products/precisionrailway/bigfour/lmsbigfour/14p38

 

I'm coming to it from the other side. Wanting post 1923 rather than earlier.

 

 

Jason

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9 minutes ago, Steamport Southport said:

 

The old Humbrol "Authentic" enamel LMS wagon grey paint was the same colour if that helps.  :)

 

I bought a tin of the MR grey to replace the Humbrol LMS version as it was recommended in a magazine article and you can't tell the difference.

 

The Precision LMS one seems too grey to me, more closer to BR grey. 

 

https://www.phoenix-paints.co.uk/products/precisionrailway/bigfour/lmsbigfour/14p38

 

I'm coming to it from the other side. Wanting post 1923 rather than earlier.

 

My feeling is that a very light grey is too light - I think darker than BR wagon grey (which anyway has a blueish tinge) - although there do seem to have been occasional exceptions. Anyway, P38 is what I use. I don't think I ever had the Humbrol LMS Wagon Grey, or at least I'm fairly sure there isn't an ancient tin in my collection. Before I discovered Precision P38 I used Humbrol No. 64, which is subtly different.

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2 hours ago, Mikkel said:

James Snowdon appears to have formed an opinion on 1901-04 period, see livery drawing in the article uploaded by bécasse in this post (and scroll up a few posts for John Lewis articles, though the photos aren't quite what you need). I suspect his is a theoretical position though (were cast plates really used that widely etc).

 

Thank you. The @jim.snowdon drawing seems to me to be what one would expect up to 1894, by extrapolation. Of course he's drawn the same side of the van as my best reference photos, with the verndah on the left, so there's uncertainty as to what happened on the other side! I expect it's much the same, occupying the three panels nearest the verandah, though there's then the problem of where the tare weight goes - on the verandah? Vans repainted after 1894, and new construction that did not receive cast plates, would be the same but with the number on the left and G.W.R on the right. Vans with cast plates would have them in the same places, as the photo of AA1 No. 56975 of Lot 336 shows. I've borrowed this photo crop of 56933 of Lot 383 from Russ @Miss Prism's article on gwr.org.uk:

 

aa1-handrails.jpg.7c4c077db9b06b68cae5bc0c8632a4df.jpg

 

From another crop from the same photo, this van has 25" G W, the G.W.R plate presumably having been removed. It has the guard's name, so that was evidently current 1904-14 or so at least. No. 56975 shows that the position of the depot name never changed. 

 

The AA1s were built at what I believe to have been "peak plate", I wouldn't be surprised to be told they all had them. Upthread there is a discussion of the earliest 4-plank wagon known to have had cast plates:

We were shown a photo of a cast numberplate from which it was clear that the pattern consisted of a frame into which blocks with the numbers were fitted. I suppose the same could be done for allocation plates but without photographic or clear documentary evidence I'd be most reluctant to model such a thing. 

 

On the evidence of these AA1s and the 4-plank wagons, I think I'd be happy putting plates on a model of an AA3 from about Lot 282 or Lot 298 onwards. But I think I'm secure in having a van from one of the earliest lots, up to around Lot 7 or Lot 11, without plates. The only question is whether such a van would have been repainted by c. 1902, i.e. LH or RH G.W.R. (I think it's pretty clear that plates were only ever used for new construction.)

 

So my remaining points of doubt are:

  • Tare weight: yes or no? If yes, where does it go on the verandah-on-the-right side?
  • Guard's name: how widespread? from when?

I suspect these may be unanswerable questions. 

 

An answerable question, I hope, is should the depot name be given as OXLEY or OXLEY SIDINGS?

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18 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

My feeling is that a very light grey is too light - I think darker than BR wagon grey (which anyway has a blueish tinge) - although there do seem to have been occasional exceptions. Anyway, P38 is what I use. I don't think I ever had the Humbrol LMS Wagon Grey, or at least I'm fairly sure there isn't an ancient tin in my collection. Before I discovered Precision P38 I used Humbrol No. 64, which is subtly different.

 

By too grey, I mean a bit "bland" like it's got no life to it.

 

Like you are looking at the Fifty Shades Of Grey colour chart and some have a tinge of something in them like a touch of blue, yellow, green, etc and some are just dull and lifeless.

 

A bit like some of the RTR manufacturers paint jobs. But I won't go into that. ;) 

 

 

 

Jason

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The problem with Phoenix Precision freight grey has existed for a longtime. 

I bought a tin 8 - 10 years ago and wondered if it was actually smudge that had accidentally been mislabeled. When I suggested that to them I was assured the two had never been produced at the same time for such a mix-up to occur.  When I asked for an alternative explanation I never did get an answer.

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Regarding Precision Paints Midland wagon grey certainly the shade produced by the original company was, according to Richard Betts who questioned the proprietor, matched to George Dow's memory of a Bassett Lowke tinplate Midland wagon model!

 

I was told this in the mid 1980s and RB at the time was very much into wagons - he reminds me of someone who posts on wagons today!

 

The shade then seemed too dark and with a distinctly green tinge - it caused much discussion in the MRS at the time and since GD had given the recipe for the colour in Midland Style (earliest known official July 1888 - page 131) viz 112lbs white lead, 9lbs linseed oil, 9lbs turps, 30lbs driers, 4lbs black and 36lbs boiled oil, we couldn't see why it wouldn't just be a light grey.

 

It seemed to us at the time that the 'colour' of new Midland wagons, when photographed, was not that different from early LMS painted grey wagons, so apart from the 'smudge' applied to post Great War repaired waggons we reckoned that the then Precision LMS wagon grey was a better bet than George Dow's memory.

 

However, it is clear that Midland waggons could weather to become quite dark in service - there is a well known photo of a Kirtley 0-6-0 in the yard at Beeston, Nottingham and this effect is clearly seen amongst the different Midland waggons. It also pre-dates the First World War so it is not ex-RN paint.

 

I leave it to others to say if the above recipe might weather to a greenish grey, but I somehow doubt it - says he with next to no knowledge on paint behaviour! 

 

 

Crimson Rambler

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