More Pre-Grouping Wagons in 4mm - the D299 appreciation thread.

[Compound2632]

14 minutes ago, Crimson Rambler said:

I leave it to others to say if the above recipe might weather to a greenish grey, but I somehow doubt it - says he with next to no knowledge on paint behaviour! 

 

Lead grey and its behaviour - or rather the chemistry of white lead, reacting with hydrogen sulfide (present as an atmospheric polutant in those coal-burning days) to produce a black lead sulfate - was discussed very early on in this topic - starting round about page 3. Coming after the first round of discussion of Great Western wagon red, I'm afraid!

[Crimson Rambler]

"Lead grey and its behaviour - or rather the chemistry of white lead, reacting with hydrogen sulfide (present as an atmospheric polutant in those coal-burning days) to produce a black lead sulfate - was discussed very early on in this topic - starting round about page 3. Coming after the first round of discussion of Great Western wagon red, I'm afraid!"

 

Excellent news Stephen.

 

 

Crimson Rambler

[Compound2632]

Completely random question:

 

Can anyone point me in the direction of photographs of Great Northern Railway wagons, especially opens, in the pre-1898 livery?

[billbedford]

The GNRS publishes a booklet entitled 'Wagons Pictorial' in two volumes. Volume one has a number of photos of wagons in the earlier, pre large letter, livery but the tend to be most low sided wagons of various types. 

[Siberian Snooper]

6 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

It does, doesn't it? I have no idea what there thinking is. (Any more explicit comment would be censored.) I use their LMS Freight Stock grey - historically identical to MR wagon grey, at least up to the mid 1930s - which seems to me to be a good representation of a neutral light lead grey (no colour tinge either to blue or yellow). That seems to me to be right for newly painted wagons, though one should then darken it by varying degrees for wagons that have been in traffic for various lengths of time.

 

If you are thinking of representing the post-Great War "smudge" that was made using left-over battleship grey, have in mind that that is said only to have been used for repaints, not for newly-constructed wagons.

 

 

It's possible that I could use the Precision paint as "smudge", I'm not sure what shades of battleship grey were in use during the Great War, but whilst I was working for MOD Navy there was at least 3 variations depending on the deployment of the ship. I suspect that freight grey has as many variations depending on who mixed it and the length of time that the vehicle had been painted.

 

Many thanks all, for your observations.

 

 

[Andy Hayter]

2 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

Lead grey and its behaviour - or rather the chemistry of white lead, reacting with hydrogen sulfide (present as an atmospheric polutant in those coal-burning days) to produce a black lead sulfate - was discussed very early on in this topic - starting round about page 3. Coming after the first round of discussion of Great Western wagon red, I'm afraid!

I think you will find it is lead sulphide not lead sulphate - sorry for the use or archaic English spellings using "ph" instead of "f" as used by Americans.

[Compound2632]

25 minutes ago, Andy Hayter said:

I think you will find it is lead sulphide not lead sulphate - sorry for the use or archaic English spellings using "ph" instead of "f" as used by Americans.

 

Yes, I was writing from faulty memory.

 

The spelling of sulfur with an f is that adopted by the International Union of Pure and Applied Chemistry and is therefore the correct spelling to use in the context of a discussion of chemical reactions; likewise aluminium. One could view this as a trade-off between British and American experts on IUPAC's Interdivisional Committee on Terminology, Nomenclature, and Symbols, of which I had the honour at one time to be the representative of the International Union of Pure and Applied Physics.

[Andy Hayter]

It wasn't meant to be a criticism Stephen.  I accept that that is now the adopted spelling but as a trained chemist of the 60's and 70's I will stick with my as-taught and as-learned archaic English.  

[Compound2632]

1 hour ago, billbedford said:

The GNRS publishes a booklet entitled 'Wagons Pictorial' in two volumes. Volume one has a number of photos of wagons in the earlier, pre large letter, livery but the tend to be most low sided wagons of various types. 

 

Thanks, I was looking at that, wondering what it contains. Really, I'd like to know how the lettering was set out on four and five plank wagons (such as the ones you do).

[Compound2632]

10 minutes ago, Andy Hayter said:

It wasn't meant to be a criticism Stephen.  I accept that that is now the adopted spelling but as a trained chemist of the 60's and 70's I will stick with my as-taught and as-learned archaic English.  

 

That's all right. I might get the chemistry wrong but I won't be faulted on nomenclature etc.!

[Steamport Southport]

Do you mean books or just online?

Books - Peter Tatlow 

 

https://wildswanbooks.co.uk/Books/LNER-Wagons1.htm

 

There is also the original version which is pretty cheap normally. I would think you could find it for about a tenner as a lot of people have probably swapped it for the more expanded version.

 

https://www.amazon.co.uk/LNER-Wagons-Illustrated-Peter-Tatlow/dp/1899816054/ref=pd_rhf_dp_p_img_1?_encoding=UTF8&psc=1&refRID=3MP3PG10BD8SZY5F37RB

 

and the GNRS books Bill mentions

 

https://www.gnrsociety.com/home-page/shop/wp01great-northern-railway-wagons-pictorial-part-1/

 

 

Also try the LNER Forum. Loads of stuff on there.

 

https://www.lner.info/

 

 

Jason

 

[Compound2632]

43 minutes ago, Steamport Southport said:

Do you mean books or just online?

Books - Peter Tatlow 

 

https://wildswanbooks.co.uk/Books/LNER-Wagons1.htm

 

There is also the original version which is pretty cheap normally. I would think you could find it for about a tenner as a lot of people have probably swapped it for the more expanded version.

 

https://www.amazon.co.uk/LNER-Wagons-Illustrated-Peter-Tatlow/dp/1899816054/ref=pd_rhf_dp_p_img_1?_encoding=UTF8&psc=1&refRID=3MP3PG10BD8SZY5F37RB

 

and the GNRS books Bill mentions

 

https://www.gnrsociety.com/home-page/shop/wp01great-northern-railway-wagons-pictorial-part-1/

 

 

Also try the LNER Forum. Loads of stuff on there.

 

https://www.lner.info/

 

 

Jason

 

 

I have Tatlow. I had a look through this evening before posting my enquiry. There are a handful of photos showing what I believe to be the pre-1898 style but they are all vans or specials with just the initials G.N.R. A search of the LNER forum hasn't revealed anything, using the search terms GNR wagon early livery lettering or subsets thereof. I'm trying to recall where I did see the one photo I'm thinking of - may also have been a van.

 

In fact, the livery of interest, though not on the type of wagon of interest, is illustrated on the cover of the GNR Soc's Wagons Pictorial Part 2; and on a cattle wagon on the cover of Part 4. I think it's Parts 1 & 2 I'd want for reference, working out at slightly more than the two wagon kits I had in mind, though the books won't need wheels, couplings, paint and transfers! (What transfers?)

Edited June 9, 2021 by Compound2632

[Andy Hayter]

There is discussion in the GNRS about getting some transfers produced - so maybe patience is the watchword here.  Of course no guarantee they will be the right ones or even the right scale.  

[billbedford]

24 minutes ago, Andy Hayter said:

There is discussion in the GNRS about getting some transfers produced - so maybe patience is the watchword here.  Of course no guarantee they will be the right ones or even the right scale.  

 

I though they were available 

[Andy Hayter]

Thanks Bill.  That solves Stephen's problem

[Compound2632]

9 hours ago, Andy Hayter said:

Thanks Bill.  That solves Stephen's problem

 

Thanks all. For the moment, a virtual problem. I did some adding up:

• Mousa GNR 4-plank or 5-plank wagon kit: £17.50
• GNR Soc Wagon Pictorial Part 1 or 2 (to suit): £18.50
• Alan Gibson wheelsets (pair): £3.00
• Slater's 3-link couplings (pair from a set of 10 pairs): £1.20
• MJT bearings (4 from a pack of 16): £0.50
• Paint etc.; negligible, say £0.20
• OTW transfers (how many wagons per sheet? Assume 4) : £1.60
• Total (one wagon): £41.50

Of course the Wagon Pictorials can be considered as a research overhead, which decreases the more Great Northern wagons one builds (except that one would start to need to buy more parts - for an open and a mineral I think one needs Parts 1 and 2). Nevertheless, it puts the price of the recently-announced Rapido RTR SECR wagons in perspective: £27.95 - at which at least one commentator said "ouch" - but I think is a fair price in comparison. Rapido's research costs are no doubt very much higher but distributed across a large number of units. Plus the price of the Mousa kit includes Bill's research overhead.

 

The one-wagon price without the research overhead (which only arises because I'm being fussy wanting early livery) is £23.00 which is about the same as a new Bachmann RTR RCH 1923 wagon. The thing that kit manufacturers never include in the price is the entertainment value of the time one spends building the kit - which might be between 90 minutes and 5 hours, so should be compared with the cost of going to see a Premiership football match or a performance of Parsifal at the Royal Opera House. Aren't kits a bargain?

 

For the record, the £7.95 I spent on Midland Wagons Vol. 1 in 1980 can be considered as long since amortised, as can Slater's investment in their 4 mm wagon kits, so a D299 costs me just £13.90 - but since they're one of my quicker builds, the money saved on not going to the Opera is not so much.

Edited June 10, 2021 by Compound2632

[Compound2632]

On 09/06/2021 at 11:09, kitpw said:

Stephen: probably of little use but you may be able to glean more from the two references below than I can - one is from Getty images, the other from "Disused Stations" so you'll need to trawl through to find the Toad!  The allocation names being on cast plates sounds wrong to me:  I can understand that the wagon shop fitted numbers and "GWR" as cast plates, they wouldn't have expected either to change, but allocations?  They certainly did, just as the guards almost certainly did as well - much more likely to have been painted. 

 

http://www.disused-stations.org.uk/l/llanpumpsaint/
https://www.gettyimages.co.uk/detail/news-photo/apple-carts-and-goods-trains-of-the-great-western-railway-news-photo/141021170?adppopup=true

 

 

Thanks. Both these photos show 25" GW but the point I take from the Newton Abbot photo is that the allocation is painted on the fourth plank down, as on the Crewe van (which also has 25" GW) and the Rogerstone & Swindon van, whereas the drawings and photos in Jim Snowdon's article show it on the third plankd down. These are all 16" GW or small GW livery apart from two photos of newly-built AA15 and AA17s in 1919/20, which have 25" GW but SEVERN TUNNEL JUNC on the third plank down. Anyway, for c. 1902, it's going to be fourth plank down.

 

I first noticed this shift when googling for OXLEY SIDINGS-branded vans, finding only the preserved/restored AA20 of the GWR 813 fund. Can I take it, however, that this confirms OXLEY SIDINGS rather than just OXLEY as the branding, right back into the mists of time (i.e. c. 1902)? I rather like the sound of Oxley Sidings. It has that bucolic Vaughan-Williams English pastoral ring to it that is so very Great Western; unlike, say, Washwood Heath.

[billbedford]

All the Mousa Models kits contain a pair of 3-link couplings. However they are to strict 4mm scale. I could be persuaded to make those added to OO kits to 'S' scale to match the size of Smith's 3-links. 

[Penlan]

Quote Compound2632  "...  The thing that kit manufacturers never include in the price is the entertainment value of the time one spends building the kit - which might be between 90 minutes and 5 hours,...."
That's quick....  

[kitpw]

19 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

for c. 1902, it's going to be fourth plank down

I did glean that much from the picture!  Yes, quite right, I think - 4th plank.  The depot naming "Oxley Sidings" seems to have been the naming convention in the 1920s:  I can't imagine that it changed during the 20 years before that and, I agree, it has a good ring to it.

 

Kit PW

[Compound2632]

2 hours ago, billbedford said:

All the Mousa Models kits contain a pair of 3-link couplings. However they are to strict 4mm scale. I could be persuaded to make those added to OO kits to 'S' scale to match the size of Smith's 3-links. 

 

This is true; I've never quite had the confidence to put the printed 3-links to the test! The 3-links I use are Slater's, not Smith's, and are closer to scale - well, smaller, anyway.

[billbedford]

When I first produced these I had a friend who hung weights one the end o a couple until the snapped. He came up with a figure of ~125gm as the usual breaking point. To put that into context, his Bachmann 24 had a drawbar pull of around 85 gms. 

 

The ones that were tested were the original white ones, which tended to be brittle. The resin that the present ones are made from is much more resilient so the links are more likely to stretch than break if over loaded. 

 

 

[Steamport Southport]

I tend to use the Smiths for locos and Slaters for wagons.

 

One thing that has bemused me since returning to 4mm scale is I'm sure that Slaters used to make Instanter couplings as well. The same packet as the three links but with an etch for the Instanter link.

 

Or am I imagining it?

 

 

Jason

[billbedford]

I found this photo of Carr Wagon works taken in 1908. Not the two plank dropside to the left. It looks newly painted but retains the G   Northern   R insignia of the previous livery. Most of the one and two plank wagons in the GNRS book are the same, but there is little consistency of placement. 

 

[Compound2632]

2 hours ago, billbedford said:

When I first produced these I had a friend who hung weights one the end o a couple until the snapped. He came up with a figure of ~125gm as the usual breaking point. To put that into context, his Bachmann 24 had a drawbar pull of around 85 gms. 

 

The ones that were tested were the original white ones, which tended to be brittle. The resin that the present ones are made from is much more resilient so the links are more likely to stretch than break if over loaded. 

 

I feel an experiment coming on.

 

Of course, a shackle breaking when subjected to a sudden snatch as the train gets underway would be perfectly prototypical!