More Pre-Grouping Wagons in 4mm - the D299 appreciation thread.

[Northroader]

I’ll never know why those couplers didn’t become a standard fitting instead of b***** tension locks. I thought they were much better to use, and didn’t tangle up. Saturday so I suppose you’re on the move, hope the holiday goes well.

[Crimson Rambler]

I also had one of the Ks Johnson 0-6-0T kits - cost me 30/- if I remember correctly.

 

My second scratch built loco was a Johnson 0-4-4T built like @David Hunt from the Skinley approximation but that along with Roche's efforts, which looked better but were often hardly any more accurate, was largely all that was available. 

 

It was built to OO gauge with 1/16in brass frames - very much inspired by John Ahern - so that dates it to the late sixties when I was about fifteen or sixteen. Later engines had thinner frames. Recently, while tidying up I came across it along with one or others I made (well started at least!) over the next few years.

 

Warts and all here's a photo:-

 

 

You will notice I got round the problem of the missing second Salter balance by not getting so far as to need them!

 

Crimson Rambler 

 

 

 

[Rail-Online]

For you 'number collectors' here is another one - a standard MR cattle van with plenty of lime at Gloucester around 1910. it just about shows the cross timbers supporting the longitudinal roof planks - a feature I have not spotted before.

 

 

Tony

Edited August 13, 2021 by Rail-Online
Additional info

[Compound2632]

On 13/08/2021 at 09:39, Rail-Online said:

For you 'number collectors' here is another one - a standard MR cattle van with plenty of lime at Gloucester around 1910. it just about shows the cross timbers supporting the longitudinal roof planks - a feature I have not spotted before.

 

No. 8295 duly added to the spreadsheet. 

 

It looks to be a large (or long) cattle wagon to Drg. 1037, the type built between 1895 and 1903 - at 960 vehicles, the largest group of cattle wagons to a single drawing. It's got the standard Ellis 10A axleboxes of that period. Compare Midland Wagons Plates 251 and 252 Nos. 8335 and 17890. An interesting modelling detail is the six transverse roof strips - either side of the doorway, at the ends, and nearer the ends than the doorway, rather like the wagon second from the left here:

 

 

In Plate 252, No. 17890 only has the strips either side of the doorway but the wagon just in shot to the right looks as if it might have the same arrangement as No. 8295:

 

 

while one in the background of Plate 253 has ten strips - either side of the doorway, at the ends, and pairs dividing each of the intervening sections into thirds:

 

 

But many, like No. 17902, have no roof strips at all. [DY 9162, 9165, and 9164, all taken at Derby Cattle Docks on 26 Nov 1909, released under the Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-ShareAlike (CC BY-NC-SA 3.0) licence by the National Railway Museum.]

 

In Midland Wagons, Bob Essery speculated that there might cattle wagons may have been numbered in blocks in the 144xx, 179xx, and 230xx ranges, to which I think can be added the 80xx-84xx range. I think that these number ranges may reflect the times at which cattle wagons were built or purchased as additions to stock, taking new numbers - the Midland's total wagon stock reached around 8,400 in 1853; 14,400 around 1866; 17,900 in 1869; and 23,000 in 1872. The reported stock of cattle wagons was 1,285 in the period 1876-1883 and 1,485 from 1885 to 1904; this would suggest that all the cattle wagons built at Litchurch Lane in this period (Lot 30 of 1879 onwards) were renewals of old cattle wagons, probably taking their numbers, except, perhaps, for the 200 vehicles of Lot 94 ordered in 1884. (In fact the reported number drops by one to 1,484 in 1896 - an accident victim?) The next jump in numbers is in another leap of 200 reported in 1905 - probably wagons of Lot 573 - coincident with the opening of Heysham harbour, I suppose in anticipation of an increase in cattle from Ireland. But there are no recorded numbers in the 116xxx range, which would signal additions to capital stock - so these would be cattle wagons replacing other types. There is a drop of 20 in the total recorded the following year, then the stock remained at 1,664 until 1912, when ex-LTSR wagons were added to the total. [This data is from the Railway Returns and the company's Half-Yearly Reports and Accounts, the rolling stock section of which I have been transcribing from the copies held by the Midland Railway Study Centre.] I think these official totals exclude wagons running as duplicate stock.

 

This numerological speculation needs to be treated with considerable caution. However, my wagon-spotting spreadsheet has only cattle wagon numbers in the ranges 8190-8350 (7 numbers); 14390-14540 (5 numbers); 17744-17906 (6 numbers); or 23014-23159 (4 numbers). In the range 27852-28049, there are 9 cattle wagon numbers and just one unknown - from a D-shaped numberplate, which could of course have come from a cattle wagon. I only have 5 numbers outside these ranges; 3 below 8000, 20390, and 36068 - this last a bit speculative since it's from a wagon label. That's a total of 36 cattle wagon numbers (about 2% of the total); my spreadsheet currently records about 1,500 numbers - from photographs, accident reports, wagon labels, etc. (about 1.2% of the total wagon stock).

Edited September 14, 2022 by Compound2632
Images re-inserted

[Penlan]

17 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

. An interesting modelling detail is the six transverse roof strips - 

NOoooo, an interesting modelling detail is the different styles of cattle dock fencing 

[Compound2632]

5 minutes ago, Penlan said:

NOoooo, an interesting modelling detail is the different styles of cattle dock fencing 

 

I expect the pens with vertical paling at low height are for smaller animals - sheep and pigs.

 

A point that came up in another thread was the type of cattle one would most likely find travelling by rail. Someone - apologies, I forget who - was using 1:87 scale cows in 4 mm/ft wagons. My reaction was that being undersized probably wasn't an issue, as my gut feeling is that most cattle traffic would be of bullocks going for fattening or slaughter, rather than milk cows. With model cows packed in a wagon, one wouldn't be able to see the udders, so not too much modification would be required.

 

Can anyone give me a steer on this?

 

This subject is a bit academic for my modelling at the moment, since the Slaters Midland cattle wagon kit represents the type built from 1905 (per photo of No. 17902 above), so too late for my c. 1902 modelling date, and modifying it to the earlier design looks rather challenging...

[Crimson Rambler]

A steer for @Compound2632 and the cows for that matter, of our native breeds, such as Devon Reds, Herefords, Belted Galloways, Welsh Blacks etc, which were almost universal on farms in the nineteenth and early twentieth centuries were physically smaller than the present day cattle breeds (mostly foreign) that became popular after the Second World. In this respect HO cattle at approx 7/8ths the size of 4mm cattle might even be a bit overscale!

Think Jersey or Guernsey compared to Friesan!

 

 

Crimson Rambler

 

 

 

[Compound2632]

2 hours ago, Crimson Rambler said:

A steer for @Compound2632 and the cows for that matter, of our native breeds, such as Devon Reds, Herefords, Belted Galloways, Welsh Blacks etc, which were almost universal on farms in the nineteenth and early twentieth centuries were physically smaller than the present day cattle breeds (mostly foreign) that became popular after the Second World. In this respect HO cattle at approx 7/8ths the size of 4mm cattle might even be a bit overscale!

Think Jersey or Guernsey compared to Friesan!

 

Looking again at those Derby 1909 photos, I think we see cattle standing crossways in the wagons, which are 7'4" wide inside. I was in daily close proximity to some dairy Friesians over the last fortnight but didn't think to measure one up.

[kitpw]

14 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

but didn't think to measure one up

No need, Google is willing...see https://www.dimensions.com/element/dairy-cows.  The answer seems to be, for contemporary dairy cows, 8'2" long by 5'5" high.  

 

Kit PW.

[Compound2632]

Changing the subject, here's a book I bought from the largest second-hand bookshop in Sedbergh (once would-be book town):

 

 

 

An intriguing read! Even more intriguing is the original owner's name on the inside front cover:

 

 

... which provides the relevance to model wagon building, as J.P. Richards was a noted 7 mm scale wagon modeller, with a preference for the LNWR - many of his models are now in the hands of the NRM. Many of his photographs are to be found in the three volumes of LNWR Wagons.

 

 

Edited September 14, 2022 by Compound2632
Images re-inserted

[PenrithBeacon]

I have the Ian Allen reprint of the late 60s bought from the WHS kiosk at ManVic about 1970.

I believe the kiosk is now at Kidderminster on the SVR.

The book is fascinating although it's many years since I opened it. You're very fortunate in having this first edition. 

[Compound2632]

6 minutes ago, PenrithBeacon said:

I have the Ian Allen reprint of the late 60s bought from the WHS kiosk at ManVic about 1970.

I believe the kiosk is now at Kidderminster on the SVR.

The book is fascinating although it's many years since I opened it. You're very fortunate in having this first edition. 

 

I understand the illustrations - especially the line drawings - are different in the Ian Allan reprint. Possibly copyright issues with The Engineer?

Edited August 23, 2021 by Compound2632

[PenrithBeacon]

1 hour ago, Compound2632 said:

 

I understand the illustrations - especially the line drawings - are different in the Ian Allan reprint. Possibly copyright issues with The Engineer?

Dunno, I would have thought the drawings were well out of copyright by the late 60s

[Dave Hunt]

I too have a reprint copy of Ahrons' book and it is something that I dip into frequently. Some of his comments on locomotives and their designers are quite revealing coming as they often do from the horses mouth so to speak. 

 

Dave

[MikeOxon]

Ahron's book is available as a free download from the Internet Archive: https://archive.org/details/britishsteamrail00ahro/

 

I also have the reprint but the PDF version is useful as it is 'searchable'

 

There's also a sequel by O.S.Nock covering 1925-1965.

 

Mike

Edited August 24, 2021 by MikeOxon

[Compound2632]

4 minutes ago, MikeOxon said:

Ahron's book is available as a free download from the Internet Archive: https://archive.org/details/britishsteamrail00ahro/

 

I also have the reprint but the PDF version is useful as it is 'searchable'

 

Ah but neither of those have J.P. Richards' signature!

 

I'm not convinced that a search facility is a good idea with a book such as this. It's the things you weren't looking for that are usually more interesting.

[Nick Holliday]

When I left school in 1969, there was a prize giving, and recipients were asked which book they wanted. Almost everyone dutifully requested a dictionary or similarly educational tome, but I caused a bit of consternation when I asked for Ahrons' book - infinitely more educational! I still have it, suitably inscribed, of course, and it often gets referred to, or dipped into just for pleasure.

Edited August 25, 2021 by Nick Holliday

[Compound2632]

1 hour ago, Nick Holliday said:

When I left school in 1969, there was a prize giving, and recipients were asked which book they wanted. Almost everyone dutifully requested a dictionary or similarly educational tome, but I caused a bit of consternation when I asked for Ahrons' book - infinitely more educational! I still have it, suitably inscribed, of course, and it often gets referred to, or dipped into just for pleasure.

 

Likewise, in 1980 I requested Midland Wagons Vol. 1. I was an odd child, never really fitted in. Still don't.

 

As I recall, the prize was for French, which I only got a C in at O level the following summer. I did ask what the logic was for giving me the French prize when I was so hopeless at speaking the language - I was told it was automatic on my getting the highest mark in the written exam.

[wagonman]

I still have my (much more conventional) grandfather's Complete Works of Shakespeare awarded to him when he was at Dulwich in the early 1900s.

[sharris]

4 hours ago, Nick Holliday said:

When I left school in 1969, there was a prize giving, 

I won two school prizes - one for maths where I received the standard prize of a pen that didn’t work, and one for the school’s hobbies exhibition (I exhibited a scratch built model street, based on the streets in York’s Castle Museum) - being into Airfix kits at the time I requested (and got) a book on Second World War fighter planes.

[Dave Hunt]

I was once leaving a Squadron on which I had previously served so rather than automatically giving me the usual inscribed tankard, framed print of a Squadron aircraft etc. the Boss asked me if there was anything else I'd like up to a certain value. When I replied that I'd quite like some Slaters kits he looked slightly taken aback but nevertheless that's what I got.

 

Dave

[Crimson Rambler]

I won a prize (liberal studies I think) in my first year as an apprentice and the book I chose was The Merchant Sailing Ship by Basil Greenhill & Ann Giffard.

 

It caused one or two comments at the time as I was training to be a marine engineer! But as I explained its always useful to have a backup!

 

 

Crimson Rambler

[Rowsley17D]

My school prize requests were very upmarket - Kenneth Clark's Civilisation and the year after The Ascent of Man. 

[Compound2632]

6 minutes ago, Rowsley17D said:

My school prize requests were very upmarket - Kenneth Clark's Civilisation and the year after The Ascent of Man. 

 

I trust you have been suitably civilised, whilst also maintaining your perch at the top of the evolutionary tree*, ever since.

 

*Perhaps a poor metaphor?

[Rowsley17D]

1 minute ago, Compound2632 said:

 

I trust you have been suitably civilised, whilst also maintaining your perch at the top of the evolutionary tree*, ever since.

 

*Perhaps a poor metaphor?

 

I like to think that I am, but then I do have a high opinion of myself. I was fascinated by both tv series at the time and had to make up the difference between the school prize monetary allowance and the books' actual cost. Another prize I've remembered was Nock's British Railways' Locomotives. I still have all three books.