More Pre-Grouping Wagons in 4mm - the D299 appreciation thread.

[Annie]

25 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

I'm baffled by the thing on the left-hand side of the end, that looks like a slidey hatch.

''Slidey hatches' were used for loading long thin objects that would be a right pain to load through the van doors; - or at least the ones on the two N.E.R. vans I made for my own projects were used for that.

[Darryl Tooley]

1 hour ago, Annie said:

''Slidey hatches' were used for loading long thin objects that would be a right pain to load through the van doors; - or at least the ones on the two N.E.R. vans I made for my own projects were used for that.

Also found on LNER vans, and more pertinently, this Caledonian one:-

 

http://www.srpsmuseum.org.uk/10048.htm

 

Note the position of the lower door runner relative to the curb rail.

 

D

[billbedford]

The van in question looks much more like the Caly one than LSWR to me. 

[Steamport Southport]

13 minutes ago, billbedford said:

The van in question looks much more like the Caly one than LSWR to me. 

 

I think you're right.

 

D67 possibly.

 

https://www.wizardmodels.ltd/shop/wagons/crd067/

 

 

 

Jason

[Mikkel]

13 hours ago, kitpw said:

Whilst on the subject of wagon ident (as Justin's posting above), can anyone identify the two GW wagons in this photo taken at Newbury:  https://www.aditnow.co.uk/SuperSize/Newbury-Colliery-Coke-Ovens_100847/ ?  I'm not absolutely certain that they are GW wagons - the G is clear and typically GWR but "W" could be a "V" (as in Vobster?) The photo is undated but (if they are GW) must be post 1905 when 5" lettering ceased and before 1927 when the coke ovens closed. Atkins etc isn't much help on this:  the closer wagon has a raised, curved end whilst the further wagon may have a straight top plank and the lettering position is different in each example. (Apologies for not posting the picture here, the caption says free of copyright but copyright is claimed in watermark on the image - better safe than sorry!).  

 

Kit PW

 

What an interesting layout scene that would make. Perhaps a bit cluttered to look at though! But there's reality for you. 

[Tim Dubya]

The Martin Finney LSWR van kit is now produced by Brassmasters.

I'm sure David Green produced a kit of this or similar diagram too but I don't know what's happening with his white metal range atm.

 

Cheers

Dubs

 

Edited September 9, 2021 by Tim Dubya
pre-coffee, coffee

[JustinDean]

From comparing photographs I also think the Caly van looks right. I’ve ordered the 51L kit just in case. 
Thanks again folks!

 

Jay

 

[Compound2632]

10 hours ago, Darryl Tooley said:

Note the position of the lower door runner relative to the curb rail.

 

Yes, that looks like the clincher. From a statistical standpoint, I suppose it is more likely to be an ex-Caledonian than an ex-L&SW vehicle purely on the grounds that the Caley's wagon fleet was about three and a half times larger; though I suppose allowance should be made for the large fraction of Caley wagons that were for mineral traffic, where the L&SW had few, which would probably even out the balance. Interesting that on both designs the door slides to the left. I guess that what I thought was a stove-in bit of planking might actually be the corner of a sack or sheet hanging out of the ventilator.

 

So livery will be as I previously suggested except that if it hasn't been painted since 1935/6 it'll be faded grey with large LMS or if after, slightly less tatty bauxite with the small lettering!

 

Whilst we're on the subject of covered goods wagons, I've been diligently using that term, since that's what the contemporary returns of working stock etc. call them, and how the drawings and diagrams are labelled. So, leafing through Goods Manager's Circulars from the 1890s and 1910s at the Midland Railway Study Centre yesterday, I was interested to see that that gentleman (Mr. Adie) consistently calls them "vans". He uses the term "trucks" quite a lot too; when he uses "wagons" he seems usually to be referring to goods vehicles in general. 

Edited September 9, 2021 by Compound2632

[wagonman]

Thanks Graham!

 

The wagons were part of a mixed batch of coke wagons that the GWR hired from the Birmingham RC&W in September 1904. They were numbered 01327 - 01384, mostly registered by the GWR in their 8-ton series, mostly fitted with spring or elastic buffers, and were off hire July 1906 when they were replaced by coal wagons with the same numbers. They were stored OOU at Didcot until returned to Birmingham.

 

I presume they were hired in anticipation of lucrative coke traffic from Newbury/Vobster to the newly revived Westbury Iron Works, a traffic flow that seemingly failed to live up to expectations.

 

This, and other information on hired-in wagons, published in the GWSG journal 'Pannier' issue 39. More information on Westbury Iron Works in 'PO Wagons of Wiltshire' (Lightmoor 2021). Both by ... ahem ... me.

 

 

Richard

 

[kitpw]

19 minutes ago, wagonman said:

More information on Westbury Iron Works in 'PO Wagons of Wiltshire' (Lightmoor 2021). Both by ... ahem ... me.

Thanks Richard, that solves a puzzle. I thought that these "GW" coke wagons must have a bit more complicated a history than would be revealed from looking them up in Atkins, Beard etc. and it's also interesting that the GWR put them into their own livery: they clearly expected the hire to be quite long term.  The wagons looked to be atypical of the GWR and more like the high sided, 10 plank coke wagons of the MR.

 

My Christmas present book list is growing apace...

 

Kit PW

 

[Compound2632]

1 hour ago, kitpw said:

it's also interesting that the GWR put them into their own livery: they clearly expected the hire to be quite long term. 

 

Would not the Birmingham RC&W Co have painted them, just as they would for any wagon hired out to a private "owner"? I think I recall seeing official Gloucester photos of wagons hired to the Great Western - the G is not in the official style!

[wagonman]

1 hour ago, Compound2632 said:

 

Would not the Birmingham RC&W Co have painted them, just as they would for any wagon hired out to a private "owner"? I think I recall seeing official Gloucester photos of wagons hired to the Great Western - the G is not in the official style!

 

I assume that would have been part of the hire agreement. They would also have painted on their 5-pointed star symbol. I presume the wagons are grey...

 

 

[Steamport Southport]

2 minutes ago, wagonman said:

 

I assume that would have been part of the hire agreement. They would also have painted on their 5-pointed star symbol. I presume the wagons are grey...

 

 

 

Definitely grey. Also the number starts with a 0.

 

Photo on the cover of this

 

 

Jason

[wagonman]

3 hours ago, kitpw said:

Thanks Richard, that solves a puzzle. I thought that these "GW" coke wagons must have a bit more complicated a history than would be revealed from looking them up in Atkins, Beard etc. and it's also interesting that the GWR put them into their own livery: they clearly expected the hire to be quite long term.  The wagons looked to be atypical of the GWR and more like the high sided, 10 plank coke wagons of the MR.

 

My Christmas present book list is growing apace...

 

Kit PW

 

 

As I said, these wagons seem to have been a bit of a mixed bag. Of the two visible at the Newbury coke ovens, neither has outside framing in the Midland style, but both are high sided as befits a coke wagon. Unfortunately I don't have any more photos of these vehicles.

 

The GWR was hiring quite a few wagons in the early years of the C20th, mostly for coal traffic though one batch at least for china clay traffic.

 

 

Edited September 9, 2021 by wagonman

[wagonman]

The wagon in the photo, 01150, arrived from Birmingham in November 1903 marked "for use at Fowey". Its Birmingham stock number was 4782, it was converted to spring buffers in February 1911 and was off-hire 15 January 1921. Load was 10 tons and tare 4-18. 

Edited September 9, 2021 by wagonman

[MikeOxon]

23 minutes ago, wagonman said:

 

I assume that would have been part of the hire agreement. They would also have painted on their 5-pointed star symbol. I presume the wagons are grey...

 

 

Perhaps this explains a statement on p.89 of Great Western Way (1st ed.) :

 

"Another uncorroborated assertion appears in The Great Western Railway Magazine for January 1909 where an old ex-employee stated that for many years the Company's wagons carried a device,"something like an asterisk", on their sides and the inference is that this emblem lasted until near 1880 ....... But in all the hundreds of illustrations studied no trace of such a device has been found"

 

Mike

[wagonman]

6 minutes ago, MikeOxon said:

Perhaps this explains a statement on p.89 of Great Western Way (1st ed.) :

 

"Another uncorroborated assertion appears in The Great Western Railway Magazine for January 1909 where an old ex-employee stated that for many years the Company's wagons carried a device,"something like an asterisk", on their sides and the inference is that this emblem lasted until near 1880 ....... But in all the hundreds of illustrations studied no trace of such a device has been found"

 

Mike

 

The only trouble with this is that there would in 1909 still have been several hundred wagons running on the railway with the 5-pointed star clearly visible.

[wagonman]

Returning for a moment to the coke wagons, the nearer one looks like 01347 and is 7 planks high, the other number is indecipherable but the wagon is 8 planks high.

 

 

[Mikkel]

1 hour ago, wagonman said:

 

As I said, these wagons seem to have been a bit of a mixed bag. Of the two visible at the Newbury coke ovens, neither has outside framing in the Midland style, but both are high sided as befits a coke wagon. Unfortunately I don't have any more photos of these vehicles.

 

The GWR was hiring quite a few wagons in the early years of the C20th, mostly for coal traffic though one batch at least for china clay traffic.

 

 

 

1 hour ago, wagonman said:

The wagon in the photo, 01150, arrived from Birmingham in November 1903 marked "for use at Fowey". Its Birmingham stock number was 4782, it was converted to spring buffers in February 1911 and was off-hire 15 January 1921. Load was 10 tons and tare 4-18. 

 

Nice subject for a scratch building project. I wonder if a singular china clay wagon might have turned up at Farthing, Wiltshire...

[wagonman]

24 minutes ago, Mikkel said:

 

 

Nice subject for a scratch building project. I wonder if a singular china clay wagon might have turned up at Farthing, Wiltshire...

 

Not unless it was seriously lost! But if you're that way inclined Len Tavender published a drawing of one of the coal wagons hired around the same period which he published, together with an outline list of the hirings, in his 'Coal Trade Wagons' which has been mentioned once or twice in this thread...

 

The wagon shown had been converted from dumb buffers in December 1903 and was in GWR use from July 1906 to May 1915. It replaced one of the coke wagons...

 

 

Edited September 9, 2021 by wagonman

[Compound2632]

2 hours ago, Steamport Southport said:

Photo on the cover of this

 

That's the one I was thinking of! And there I was leafing through the book trying to find it...

 

2 hours ago, wagonman said:

 

That photo, and Richard's Pannier article, were invaluable references when I was building my Birmingham RC&W Co Huntley & Palmers wagons. That's a fleet ought to add to...

[Andy Hayter]

1 hour ago, Mikkel said:

 

 

Nice subject for a scratch building project. I wonder if a singular china clay wagon might have turned up at Farthing, Wiltshire...

 

Unlike Wagonman's comment I will say possibly.  It depends on what industries you have in the area.

China Clay - aka Kaolin is used for:

 

Porcelain - seems unlikely

Rubber (used as a filler and strengthener) - even more unlikely 

Fine paper (used to provide a smooth finish) - possible.  Fine paper producers to His Majesty.

Medication (used to calm bacterial infections of the gut) - The Farthing Kaolin and Morphine works.  Providers of medicines to the British Army and used around the world.

[kitpw]

1 hour ago, Mikkel said:

I wonder if a singular china clay wagon might have turned up at Farthing, Wiltshire...

I don't know if that particular wagon might have wandered into Wiltshire but china clay is used in the manfacture of all sorts of things.  I'm proposing a paper manufactury at Swan Hill which is why I've been researching china clay (and as often happens came across the "off-topic" Newbury coke ovens whilst doing so). It was also used in making paint, medicines, bricks, and pottery amongst other things. Perhaps of more interest in rural Farthing might be its agricultural/horticultural use -  protecting seads and small plants from dryng out but also for pest control (since about 2000BCE in China apparently).  

 

Kit PW

 

 

[Compound2632]

Just to give a sense of proportion to these exotic mineral loads, I can report the quantities of minerals received at Skipton (MR) in November 1897:

Coal: 1098 tons 5 cwt

Coke: 25 tons 18 cwt

Lime: 42 tons 10 cwt

Limestone: 22 tons 0 cwt

and I know the numbers of the wagons each consignment arrived in.

(In principle; if I had transcribed them. I didn't; I very quickly asked Dave Harris to take those ledgers out of temptation's way!)

[Ref. MRSC Item 28948.]

[wagonman]

33 minutes ago, kitpw said:

I don't know if that particular wagon might have wandered into Wiltshire but china clay is used in the manfacture of all sorts of things.  I'm proposing a paper manufactury at Swan Hill which is why I've been researching china clay (and as often happens came across the "off-topic" Newbury coke ovens whilst doing so). It was also used in making paint, medicines, bricks, and pottery amongst other things. Perhaps of more interest in rural Farthing might be its agricultural/horticultural use -  protecting seads and small plants from dryng out but also for pest control (since about 2000BCE in China apparently).  

 

Kit PW

 

 

 

A couple of the larger paper manufacturers even bought their own china clay pits to ensure their supply. As far as i know the supplies for the ceramics industry in Stoke went by sea to Liverpool and then by canal.

 

I doubt the Birmingham wagons ever strayed from Cornwall Minerals line.

 

I suspect PO wagons of Devon and Cornwall will be my next book – if I live long enough!