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More Pre-Grouping Wagons in 4mm - the D299 appreciation thread.


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50 minutes ago, Andy Hayter said:

 

Unlike Wagonman's comment I will say possibly.  It depends on what industries you have in the area.

China Clay - aka Kaolin is used for:

 

Porcelain - seems unlikely

Rubber (used as a filler and strengthener) - even more unlikely 

Fine paper (used to provide a smooth finish) - possible.  Fine paper producers to His Majesty.

Medication (used to calm bacterial infections of the gut) - The Farthing Kaolin and Morphine works.  Providers of medicines to the British Army and used around the world.

 

There were a few paper mills in Wiltshire – indeed there still is one at least – Dowdings of Slaughterford being the only one to own wagons. But they made paper from rags for bag making and had no use for china clay. Yup, they're in PO Wagons of Wiltshire...

 

I don't know if Avon Rubber of Melksham used the stuff. It would have been in relatively small quantities if so. Likewise for medicines.

 

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12 minutes ago, wagonman said:

I suspect PO wagons of Devon and Cornwall will be my next book – if I live long enough!

 

Berkshire might be fruitful? I don't suppose Ian Pope can be nudged in the direction of Worcestershire?

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1 hour ago, Compound2632 said:

 

Berkshire might be fruitful? I don't suppose Ian Pope can be nudged in the direction of Worcestershire?

 

I understand he is working on a Bucks/Berks/Oxon volume with Western Star. Hope I'm not speaking out of turn...

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On 09/09/2021 at 18:36, wagonman said:

 

..... I suspect PO wagons of Devon and Cornwall will be my next book – if I live long enough!

I once showed this photo in my thread where it caused some discussion.  It was coloured red in the original postcard but I have removed that, as it is almost certainly the artist's fancy!  One to consider.

 

586242964_GWR_Nanpean1900s800x600.jpg.3e217cb87874afcbe452e5b424edabcc.jpg

Edited by MikeOxon
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23 hours ago, wagonman said:

 

Not unless it was seriously lost! But if you're that way inclined Len Tavender published a drawing of one of the coal wagons hired around the same period which he published, together with an outline list of the hirings, in his 'Coal Trade Wagons' which has been mentioned once or twice in this thread...

 

The wagon shown had been converted from dumb buffers in December 1903 and was in GWR use from July 1906 to May 1915. It replaced one of the coke wagons...

 

 

LT drawing L.jpg

 

Many thanks to all for the information and ideas regarding china clay traffic to Wiltshire. It's all been recorded and I will mull it over. Don't hold your breath though :)

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Transcript of Midland Railway Study Centre Item 26194-04:

 

                                  MIDLAND RAILWAY

 

                              Goods Managers Office

Circular                                                   Derby May 22nd 1863

 

                                 High Sided Wagons

dear Sir,

          Please note that the pole attached to each high sided

wagon for the purpose of keeping up the sheet, must in all

cases, when about to travel, be put up in the proper place

for supporting the sheet whether such is used or not.

 

          Yours truly

 

                    (signed)                Thomas Mortlake (?)

 

          Keep this Circular, affix it your Order Book

          and acknowledge receipt on annexed form.

 

Mr _______________

____________ Station

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38 minutes ago, PenrithBeacon said:

1863? Not sure such an instruction, any instruction,  of that era would survive until 1923

 

I wasn't for a moment suggesting any such thing! It's just an interesting insight - quite apart from anything else, it shows that "high sided wagons" were already a thing, alongside the 3-plank dropside "low sided wagon" (prehistoric version of D305) that certainly goes back to at least 1858.

 

More relevant to my c. 1902 period is this extract from MRSC Item 17724, Goods Managers Circular 1,768, September 8th, 1896, titled "General Instructions relating to Goods and Live Stock Traffic" - 5 pages of a mix of instructions, not systematically laid out, including what to do with pigs that have died in transit:

 

Goods damaged by wet in transit:

 

Goods are frequently damaged by wet, owing to hollow loading or defective sheeting. Trestles must be used whenever a proper shoot cannot be formed, and if there is any doubt as to a single sheet being sufficient to properly protect the goods, an additional one must be used. Two good sheets must be put over loads of Hops, Flour, and Sugar, in all cases. In case the supply of Trestles is not sufficient application must be made at once to me.

 

Trestles?

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Quick look online found this

A trestle (sometimes tressel) is a rigid frame used as a support, historically a tripod used both as stools and to support tables at banquets.

 

So perhaps some sort of frame to shape the sheet to make water run off.

 

With traditional tarpaulin if there are any dips water pools and drips through, it needs shaper over the load to avoid this.

 

Edited by Asterix2012
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20 minutes ago, Asterix2012 said:

Quick look online found this

A trestle (sometimes tressel) is a rigid frame used as a support, historically a tripod used both as stools and to support tables at banquets.

 

So perhaps some sort of frame to shape the sheet to make water run off.

 

With traditional tarpaulin if there are any dips water pools and drips through, it needs shaper over the load to avoid this.

 

 

Indeed. But I've not knowingly seen one in any goods yard photo!

 

There are two relevant references if one puts "trestle" into the MRSC catalogue search:

Item Number: 17526 Date: 24 June 1881
Category: Goods Manager's Circular (Numbered)

Circular No:- 1000
Date:- JUNE 24TH, 1881.
Title:- Paid Ons for Trestles or Sheet Supporters.

 

Item Number: 21147 Date: 22 August 1911
Category: Goods Department Document

Letter dated 22 August 1911 from Midland Railway Chief Goods Manager's Office, Outdoor Department, Derby to Mr Sadd, Burton regarding ropes, chains, trestles, etc. and RCH Regulation 405.
Print Ref: S.34: 3.11.

 

... which at least shows that such things were standard equipment for at least thirty years.

 

There is nothing under the spelling "tressel"; for "tressle" there's a drawing of a wooden footbridge, the word describing the supports but I think that's only in the description provided by the cataloguer.

Edited by Compound2632
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3 minutes ago, Mikkel said:

 

Bit of a cliff hanger.

 

Hanging's the word. They were to be hung up on the (inside) end wall of the wagon, as I recall - I didn't actually transcribe that bit. They had to be accounted for - no dodgy ham for the goods porter.

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1 hour ago, Mikkel said:

 

Bit of a cliff hanger.

Mikkel, We all know your predilection for chopping up people and animals, to re-arrange into the poses you require, but I do hope that we are not about to see Farthing littered with pigs that have died in transit :)

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I note from this year’s IgNobel prizes, that there is good evidence for the transport of rhinoceros, upside down.  
 

sedated, obviously…

 

apparently it’s better than them lying on their sides.  Then again, I don’t suppose the old Great Western was overly worried about such matters.

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1 hour ago, Compound2632 said:

Paid Ons for Trestles or Sheet Supporters

I'd always assumed that the word "trestle" denoted a structure deriving its stability in a triangular sort of way - must be the "tres" in "trestle" - as in trestle bridge, trestle table and so on. This appears not be so. Skeat (Etymological Dictionary of the English Language) tells me it derives from Latin "transtrum" meaning a cross-beam and from which we also get "transom" - perhaps "trestle" is no more than a beam.

 

An entry in the Oxford Dictionary under "trestle" records this, written in 1808: (paraphrased for brevity) "the famed obstinacy of the pig is somewhat increased when he is laid upon the trestle for execution".  

 

1 hour ago, Mikkel said:

Bit of a cliff hanger.

Lemmings by rail?

 

Kit PW

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On 11/09/2021 at 13:12, kitpw said:

I'd always assumed that the word "trestle" denoted a structure deriving its stability in a triangular sort of way - must be the "tres" in "trestle" - as in trestle bridge, trestle table and so on. This appears not be so. Skeat (Etymological Dictionary of the English Language) tells me it derives from Latin "transtrum" meaning a cross-beam and from which we also get "transom" - perhaps "trestle" is no more than a beam.

 

I have a clear mental image of a trestle - a beam supported by legs, as you describe, though not necessarily triangular if it is wide enough for stability on two legs (or effectively four legs) - like a carpenter's horse:

 

image.png.bc14f1f35951419483581ca84549a1bb.png 

 

It's just that I've not knowingly seen such things in goods yard photos etc., but that could well be because I wasn't looking for them. 

 

Searching on "trestle" in the MRSC Carriage & Wagon Register, I find Drg. 426 "Trestle + Rails to Carry Wagon Sheets", dated 16 August 1879, draughtsman G.F. Ride, and alas noted as "destroyed"...

Edited by Compound2632
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7 minutes ago, Asterix2012 said:

I wonder if the trestle was for wagons without sheet rails, with the beam arranged longitudinally it would serve the same purpose?

 

Yes, exactly so; that much is evident from the documents mentioned above. Midland wagons did not have sheet rails (apart from some very select exceptions).

 

But what size it was, how it was used - and how it fitted round the load - are all mysteries, to me at least.

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On 10/09/2021 at 22:11, Compound2632 said:

 

............... In case the supply of Trestles is not sufficient application must be made at once to me.

 

Trestles?

One use for trestles is described in the website 'Goods and Not So Goods' http://igg.org.uk/rail/4-rstock/04arstock4.htm as follows:

 

"Any items larger than about fifty foot long or over eight feet wide were classed as 'special traffic' because of the danger they might foul stock on adjacent tracks when in transit. These items were rather rare in practice and would usually be worked through the system during a low traffic period, usually over a weekend. Anything wider than about eight foot presented a real problem on the railways, laid flat it would be likely to foul stock on adjacent tracks and line side equipment, on end it would foul bridges. To allow larger sheets of metal to be carried some four wheeled and bogie plate wagons were fitted with a wooden trestle so the load could be supported diagonally. This allowed loads of up to about 12 feet wide to be carried.

 

636330534_TrestleWagons.jpg.92e31d1abd7d0fbcec600a82cef1cedc.jpg

Fig ___ Peco plate wagons converted to trestle wagons

Modelling the BR and four-legged NE trestle wagons was described in Railway Modeller March 2003 (Traffic for Tickling Article 14). The model of the three-legged type shown here was an earlier attempt and not quite up to the same standard. It was based on a drawing in Peter Tatlow's book on LNER wagons
"

 

A simpler types of folding trestle that could potentially be used as a sheet support is shown below - similar to those encountered in hotel rooms fr supporting suitcases at manageable height:

 

foldaway-universal-trestle-227kg-swl.jpg.784d607839e23ce0be17739cfb5b6bd8.jpg

 

Mike

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2 minutes ago, MikeOxon said:

One use for trestles is described in the website 'Goods and Not So Goods' http://igg.org.uk/rail/4-rstock/04arstock4.htm as follows:

 

"Any items larger than about fifty foot long or over eight feet wide were classed as 'special traffic' because of the danger they might foul stock on adjacent tracks when in transit. These items were rather rare in practice and would usually be worked through the system during a low traffic period, usually over a weekend. Anything wider than about eight foot presented a real problem on the railways, laid flat it would be likely to foul stock on adjacent tracks and line side equipment, on end it would foul bridges. To allow larger sheets of metal to be carried some four wheeled and bogie plate wagons were fitted with a wooden trestle so the load could be supported diagonally. This allowed loads of up to about 12 feet wide to be carried.

 

Those trestles are clearly much larger than the trestles mentioned in the Midland instructions. 

 

Keeping my eyes open for a photo!

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