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More Pre-Grouping Wagons in 4mm - the D299 appreciation thread.


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4 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

Those trestles are clearly much larger than the trestles mentioned in the Midland instructions. 

 

Keeping my eyes open for a photo!

... but the one at the end shows how simple they can be - just a simple wooden frame that could be stacked against a wall.  Something to look out for.

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A couple of years ago, when I was first contemplating my Drake & Mount wagons (still not quite finished) my neighbour @Gordon Connell drew attention to the mystery of skins being put out at our local station, Earley, around 1909:

The mystery is not solved but a similar instance has recently been mentioned on the L&NWR Society's facebook group, re. Welford & Kilworth on the LNWR Rugby - Market Harborough line: in a 1908 WTT, a down express goods train was booked to stop at Welford & Kilworth on Sundays only "to detach skin traffic when required" - i.e. wagonload traffic, it would seem. In this instance it appears that North Kilworth was a centre for shoemaking, although a local tannery has yet to be identified - skins being, as far as can be ascertained, untreated hides.

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@chris p bacon has very kindly and generously sent me a large number of scans of drawings of pre-grouping wagons from old magazines - MRN and its successors, MRC, and RM. These had been found as a collection of detached pages at his club. Many are by Ken Werrett. I am intrigued by Werrett's drawings. He was clearly a professional draughtsman who understood how wagons go together but I do sometimes wonder if the resulting apparent accuracy may not sometimes be a trap. With some drawings one might suppose he had access to official drawings, but I don't think he can have done. He generally says "details taken" at dates between 1916 and 1920. Did he immediately draw up what he had seen and measured, or were the drawings produced much later - mostly being published from the late 60s onwards - half a century later?

 

As an example, compare his drawing of the familiar Midland coke wagon, D342, with the copy of the Derby Carriage & Wagon Drawing Office drawing No. 760 held by the Midland Railway Study Centre [Item 88-D0275]:

 

378503199_MidlandD342cokewagonWerrettcrop.jpg.1cac3867873ef1a4535788105cb9d68c.jpg2139283854_MidlandD342cokewagonDrg760crop.jpg.6b22957ea873158a021433f1346c2d97.jpg

 

The Derby drawing shows a line of ⅝" bolts continuing up the main vertical frame, above the inverted-T iron/hinge; this are missing from Werrett's drawing, although they are very clear in photos:

 

64081.jpg

 

[Embedded link to catalogue thumbnail of Midland Railway Study Centre Item 64081.]

 

I think this shows that Werrett hadn't looked inside the wagon, where he would have seen the very substantial iron side knees to which the timer uprights were bolted:

 

370441633_MidlandD342cokewagonDrg760sidekneecrop.jpg.dc7e209d776715c539a012427b324624.jpg

 

This makes me wonder if the Werrett drawing was used when Slaters were cutting the moulds for their 4 mm and 7 mm scale kits over 40 years ago. That might also explain the over-large 10A axleboxes upon which @billbedford has remarked. I've taken to adding the missing bolts using the Archer resin rivet transfers:

 

970564060_MidlandD342No.85467withcokeload.JPG.bf6e2f339dd3fbccbd7152f33f94a9b2.JPG

 

Others have remarked upon discrepancies between Werrett's drawings and official drawings and photographs:

https://www.lner.info/forums/viewtopic.php?p=16454#p16454.

 

It seems clear that Werrett's drawings need to be treated with a little bit of caution and cross-referencing to other sources of information, where that is available - but often it isn't; photos are indistinct, official drawings long lost - so one has to make the best use of what information one has. I would love to know more about Ken Werrett - what were his dates - how old was he when he measured up those wagons in 1916-1920? Did he have an engineering or railway career? All I can really glean is that he was a member of the HMRS, so must have been active in it in the 1960s, perhaps from 1950.

 

All this isn't to look down my nose at @chris p bacon's generosity but rather as a prelude to a most interesting titbit re.

 

The Trestle Question

 

Looking through the Werrett drawings, there are several that depict wagons with sheet bars à la Great Western / SE&C: a Cheshire Lines 10 ton open and its Great Central sibling; a Great Western O2 and a vac-fitted wagon (O15?); where he uses the word trestle for the sheet bar. The final revelation is his drawing of a Midland D299 "showing detachable trestle and bow to prevent hollow sheeting and damage to goods":

 

10870350_MidlandD299withtrestleandbowWerrettsideviewcrop.jpg.60dfa3513ef29a87e0b684bbce4b2399.jpg1421822539_MidlandD299withtrestleandbowWerrettendviewcrop.jpg.fdecd887de925ccb8202b6afd65d3669.jpg

 

He adds: "note: these were not used together".

 

One can only suppose that these are drawn from notes taken and / or sketches of the items in service. Unfortunately for this drawing he does not give a date.

 

So here we have a strong piece of secondary evidence for these pieces of goods department equipment but one should continue to hunt for some primary evidence. These would be easy enough to model - a piece of plasticard lengthways or crossways inside the wagon, with the sheet over. But I've been told not to think of building any more D299s until I've finished an administrative task in hand.

 

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18 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

secondary evidence for these pieces of goods department equipment

Even if no photo turns up showing the 'trestle', one could expect to find evidence of abrasion on the wagon end where the trestle is fitted. With no positive fixing, (none is shown on the drawing), it's an interference or friction fit with dubious resistance to transverse movement.  The oak bobbins on the chain are presumably intended to allow the sheet to be pulled off the wagon without the trestle and chain ending up in the loader's lap.  Perhaps it didn't work very well and wasn't much used?  The bow looks a better bet but probably not as effective as the sheet rail as per GWR practice.

 

Kit PW

 

 

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2 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

It seems clear that Werrett's drawings need to be treated with a little bit of caution and cross-referencing to other sources of information, where that is available - but often it isn't; photos are indistinct, official drawings long lost - so one has to make the best use of what information one has. I would love to know more about Ken Werrett - what were his dates - how old was he when he measured up those wagons in 1916-1920? Did he have an engineering or railway career? All I can really glean is that he was a member of the HMRS, so must have been active in it in the 1960s, perhaps from 1950.

 

Someone did look into trying to find who owned the copyright and whether a collection could be published.  it was a long time ago - probably on the archive site which has now vanished.  A list was drawn up of all the known drawings, but I don't believe much was ever discovered about the man himself or any relatives.

 

 

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The following observation made by Overseer concening the value or otherwise of Werrett drawings appeared on the 'other' website (1/4/20). It appears in the S7 Group section under the topic Wagon Allsorts .

 

Every Ken Werrett I have looked at in detail has been a work of fiction, very well drawn but little basis in fact and his claimed measure ups must have been very incomplete.

 

To which I added (3/4/20:-

 

Thank goodness - someone else who is very wary of Ken Werret's waggon drawings. They look so convincing - he obviously was a very talented draughtsman - but tragically the drawings' accuracy is not to the same standard. Alarm bells first rang when I saw his drawing of a Midland 10-ton brake van in which the sides were a foot adrift in height.

 

Apologies for mispelling his name!

Crimson Rambler

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3 hours ago, kitpw said:

Even if no photo turns up showing the 'trestle', one could expect to find evidence of abrasion on the wagon end where the trestle is fitted. With no positive fixing, (none is shown on the drawing), it's an interference or friction fit with dubious resistance to transverse movement.  The oak bobbins on the chain are presumably intended to allow the sheet to be pulled off the wagon without the trestle and chain ending up in the loader's lap.  Perhaps it didn't work very well and wasn't much used?  The bow looks a better bet but probably not as effective as the sheet rail as per GWR practice.

 

Good photos of the ends of wagons are not easy to find - I've been looking, to build up evidence for the proportion of D299 and D351 wagons built with the extra end vertical ironwork. What is clear is that trestles of some sort were standard equipment over a period from the 1880s to just before the Great War, as they are mentioned in Goods Manager's circulars etc. There's no such evidence for the bow, though - at least not under that name.

 

1 hour ago, Crimson Rambler said:

Every Ken Werrett I have looked at in detail has been a work of fiction, very well drawn but little basis in fact and his claimed measure ups must have been very incomplete.

 

He habitually draws the numberplate too small and puts it on the left (wrong) side of the brake V-hanger instead of the right (right) side. Did that mislead Slaters too?

 

Along with the trestle and bow, I'm finding all sorts of little things for which I have not come across any other evidence. He has a drawing of a low goods wagon - D305, of the Drg. 1143 variety - lettered ED but with a T between the E and D, with the note "T = to be used for tar". On the same drawing he has the number 10 inside the crownplate of the left-hand axleguard [vide S. Lea, 8 Ton High-sided Wagon No. 88181, Midland Railway Society Journal No. 76 (2021)], labelling it "Depot Number". Is that a fact, or a wild guess?

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Many years ago I was told that Ken Werrett,s father had a wagon repair yard where Ken would measure up wagons and jot down the dimensions  in a note book. He then did his drawings years later. I was told that he lived in a caravan that was crammed full of drawings piled high. 

I tell this without any evidence or proof and if I have blackened his name then I can only apologise to his memory. 

Without his drawings in MRN / RM / MRC I would not have made as many models that I did in the 60s and 70s.    

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12 hours ago, airnimal said:

Without his drawings in MRN / RM / MRC I would not have made as many models that I did in the 60s and 70s.    

 

Indeed; his drawings are better than no drawings at all and more useful than many wagon drawings that have appeared, that are little better than sketches. 

 

12 hours ago, airnimal said:

Ken would measure up wagons and jot down the dimensions  in a note book. He then did his drawings years later.

 

Yes, it's clear that he understood how a wagon goes together, even if there are errors in going from his notes to the drawing board - hardly surprising given the interval of time between making the notes and doing the drawings. 

 

12 hours ago, airnimal said:

Many years ago I was told that Ken Werrett,s father had a wagon repair yard

 

Now that is interesting in itself as it leads to the inference that during the Great War (say from 1916) and for several years after, the private wagon trade was repairing railway company wagons, not just PO mineral wagons.

 

But if that was the case, I'm surprised at some of the vehicles he was seeing there such as fully fitted Midland banana and meat vans and biscuit wagons. There are some other exotics. His drawing of a Midland D379 meat van (which is a particularly dodgy one, certainly in the representation of the passenger-style panelling) comes with a list of drawings already published (in MRN, I presume) starting in July 1959 with a Cleobury Mortimer & Ditton Priors Light Railway 8 ton wagon and including a Colne Valley & Halsted 10 ton high sided wagon (Jan 1961). The meat van drawing must have been published in May 1961.

 

 

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On 27/09/2021 at 20:35, Compound2632 said:

On the same drawing he has the number 10 inside the crownplate of the left-hand axleguard [vide S. Lea, 8 Ton High-sided Wagon No. 88181, Midland Railway Society Journal No. 76 (2021)], labelling it "Depot Number". Is that a fact, or a wild guess?

 

Werrett's drawing of the D304 vacuum-braked open for Carr's biscuit traffic also shows the "depot number" 1 - which is visible on the official photo of No. 65721, Midland Wagons Plate 108. These wagons had oil axleboxes; he draws the detail reproduced below - the outer arc is I suppose intended to be the inside curve of the crownplate but it doesn't quite tie in with the bobbin-shaped sheet tie cleat that was mounted towards the bottom of the solebar, in line with the axle:

 

984320947_MidlandD304Werrettdrawingoilingmarkingsdetail.jpg.d8e4150b0bea14109a18adb46620eafe.jpg

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2 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

But if that was the case, I'm surprised at some of the vehicles he was seeing there such as fully fitted Midland banana and meat vans and biscuit wagons.

 

I've been told that he also did drawings when he came upon survivors later on in life. So perhaps his father's yard was just the beginning. 

 

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If drawings are being done from memory, even not very long term, it's surprising what errors can creep in.   I have an Edwards Brothers drawing of a Belgian ferry van which clearly states that the lettering is yellow (on a white van).   It was red - it was the brake levers which were yellow.

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6 minutes ago, Mikkel said:

I've been told that he also did drawings when he came upon survivors later on in life. So perhaps his father's yard was just the beginning. 

 

He doesn't use the Midland diagram numbers; I do so here for convenience:

D387 banana van "details taken 1919"

D365 banana van "details taken 1917"

D395 refrigerator meat van "details taken 1918"

No date given for the D304 Carr's Biscuits fitted open.

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Such an interesting and well executed set. Good to see them painted. I like the finish, especially on 6693.

 

No. 74888 works for me. If the top of the R could be raised a little (it currently emphasises the join) it would be even better, but that may be easier said than done. 

 

The prototype info helps bring the wagons to life, and vice versa. Which I believe is your aim, if I remember correctly. History on wheels!

 

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14 minutes ago, Rowsley17D said:

Stephen, I'm intrigued to find out how you make your Midland wagon number plates, please. Apologies if it's hidden elsewhere in the thread.

 

I have, but it'll be quicker to repeat than to find!

 

I've drawn a numberplate template up at large scale in CorelDraw, using as reference Drawing 564 of 1882 [Midland Railway Study Centre Item 88-D2021] along with photos of actual plates. The lettering started out as Ariel Black (or similar - I forget which). In CorelDraw, one can convert an object to curves, so once the letters / numbers were to the right height and width, I tweaked, dragged, and nudged them into the right shape. Once I was happy, I reduced them to 12 mm/ft scale and mass-produced numberplates, using known numbers for specific diagrams, mostly. The final set of plates is then reduced to 4 mm/ft scale and printed out at best quality and 600 dpi on glossy photo paper with an hp inkjet printer. Using a very sharp blade, I cut out the numberplates, cutting just through the hard glossy layer of the photo paper. The numberplates are then peeled off the backing layers of the paper, any fibres sticking to the back are scraped off, and the corners trimmed. They're stuck on to the model, usually using Rocket cyano. My bottle of that is now completely stuck up, so I've experimented with UHU (OK but strings) and Di-Limonene, which works but causes the ink to fade. This is done along with all the lettering, before spraying with matt varnish.

 

I've not only done Midland numberplates - S&DJR (much the same); LNWR (easier to cut out since they're rectangular); L&YR; LB&SCR. I claim no great originality for the method: @Worsdell forever has done much the same for NER plates, though I'm not sure of he uses photo paper.

 

If you (or anyone else) is interested, I can send you some in pdf, on condition that you Solemnly Swear not to rip them off for commercial gain. I usually print directly from CorelDraw but I think pdf should work just as well.

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I've been following a random train of thought. The LNWR Society Facebook Group had a post with a photo of the aftermath of an accident on the LNWR at Chelford, Cheshire, in 1894, which had me off burrowing through the accident reports. This led me to Lt.-Col. Yorke's report into a three-train pile-up at Verdin's Sidings just north of Winsford Junction on 3 July 1899. There were mercifully no injuries beyond shocks and bruises but much destruction of goods wagons, all dutifully recorded.

 

The fault lay with the driver of the 10 pm Crewe-Garston coal train, who, after setting off several wagons at Verdin's siding, mistook the signals on the down main for his own, though he was on the down loop - there had been a notice of a change in the signalling here that he admitted to not having read. His train, Coal Engine No. 940 with 32 wagons, 30 loaded and two empty, and brake, ploughed off the end of the loop into the abutment of an overbridge, despite his attempts to put the engine in reverse and the guard, realising the error, screwing down his brake. Wagons were thrown onto the down main, where they were struck by the 9 pm Crewe-Carlisle express goods, 42 wagons and break, headed by 6ft Whitworth 2-4-0 No. 901 Hero. The signalman at Verdin's sidings box threw his up main signals to danger, so the 9:55pm Liverpool-Abergavenny return excursion, headed by Special DX No. 1243, was slowing in anticipation of seeing the up home at danger when it struck the wreckage. 

 

The list of damaged stock is interesting. There were quite a number of foreign wagons, all of which, I would presume, were in the Carlisle express goods - that's the train to model if you want an eclectic lot of pre-grouping goods wagons:

  • Furness van and open
  • GNoS meat van
  • Great Eastern open
  • G&SW meat van, van, and fish truck
  • two North British opens

along with a L&NW covered goods and 13 L&NW opens.

 

There's a L&NW traffic coal wagon listed; that was almost certainly in the Garston coal train, along with nine Midland Coal, Coke & Iron Co wagons and three of P. Speakman & Sons. The Midland Coal, Coke & Iron Co is well known to me - there are several of their wagons drawn in Tavender's Coal Trade Wagons and we've seen several more in the down empty goods train caught in photos of the wreckage of the Wellingborough accident. Curiously, six of the MCC&I Co's wagons have numbers in the range 1625-1693, suggesting this might be block working of a set of wagons from a particular batch? These numbers are missing from the list of MCC&I Co wagons hired from the Birmingham RC&W Co given by Tavender but another casualty, No. 2139, can be identified as one of a batch of 105 10 ton wagons bought on deferred terms on 1 April 1890. (The Birmingham RC&W Co's records survive in the Staffordshire Record Office, I gather, so that firm seems to be the best documented after the Gloucester RC&W Co.) One MCC&I Co wagon was so completely broken up that its number could not be identified.

 

I thought the chances of finding out anything about P. Speakman & Sons' wagons were slim. They probably had a rather smaller fleet, though still larger than many - their damaged wagons were Nos. 164, 365, and 412. However, idly googling for images relating to the MCC&I Co, I came across this photo of Jamage Colliery, which, like the MCC&I Co's Apedale Colliery, was in the Noth Staffordshire coalfield:

 

 

image.png.8a56d30e1ea39217a1153ececbb70597.png 

 

[http://nsmg.apedale.co.uk/Mouldspits/bpits.htm]

 

According to that site, Jamage (Bignall Hill) Colliery was acquired by Settle Speakman in 1918. (Graces Guide suggests that was a firm, perhaps incorporating Philip Speakman & Sons. Other than that there's nothing on Philip Speakman & Sons, though there is an entry for John Speakman & Sons, owners of collieries in Leigh in the 1890s. I don't know what date to put on this photo - pre or post-Great War? - but I think that's a North Staffs tank engine lurking amongst the wagons - possibly a Class D 0-6-0T?

 

As Philip Speakman & Sons advertise themselves on their wagons as a Liverpool firm and evidently had interests in a North Staffs colliery, the presence of their wagons in a Crewe-Garston coal train is intelligible!

 

 

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I hadn't checked the Lightmoor Index which lists Philip Speakman & Sons as appearing in Turton's Twelfth, which I don't have, and both Philip and John in Watt's Ince book, which I do. Watts has only an advert for P. Speakman and Sons but for J. Speakman there's a photo of an end-door 10 ton wagon, also with the large S on the door but not set in a diamond; it is possibly an Ince product of 1889/90; the date of the photo is not given but the next wagon is a Midland D351 end door wagon, in Midland livery but without the running number below the M, so the photo could be but isn't necessarily pre-Great War. The firm advertises itself as of Leigh & Bedford, though Watts speculates that export could have been through Garston Docks. I expect that Turton gives some account of the firm of P. Speakman & Sons and also of Settle Speakman, listed as appearing in his Eleventh - another I don't have. I see that these liveries have appeared on various RTR wagons, of which the less said the better.

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Looking more closely at the Jamage Colliery photo, I think that in addition to the Speakman and Bagnall Hall Colliery wagons, I spy a couple of City of Birmingham Gas Department hopper wagons. The Gas Department didn't own any conventional wooden wagons until 1902, its fleet in the 19th century being made up of these bespoke hopper wagons, eventually 500 of them according to Keith Turton's article on Warwickshire Railways. Of course they won't have immediately gone out of use once wooden wagons were acquired but their presence does perhaps support a pre-Great War date for the photo.

 

RTR models of both the hopper and wooden wagons used to be available:

 

1531208311_CaretteBassett-Lowkegauge1CityofBhamGasDeptNo_779.JPG.16bac09d9455b0e54eb007ebeee032aa.JPG372138940_CaretteBassett-Lowkegauge1CityofBhamGasDeptNo_1201.JPG.ced2b3428e85b58ea1d1b3e14f4d828a.JPG

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I’m an occasional visitor to this fascinating thread.

 

I do have Turton volume 11.. so maybe I can summarise the Settle Speakman section.

 

Jamage colliery closed in 1925.

 

Philip Speakman was a coal factor from Liverpool. Founded in 1860. 
 

Joel Settle was based in the Potteries area and specialised in small sized coal. Looks like he invented/ developed coal washing plants to use up what was regarded as waste coal by cleaning it.

 

Settle was in partnership with Speakman from1901 to 1911 and from then the company of Settle Speakman was formed.

 

Joel Settle owned 70 wagons early on and started by hiring seven 7 ton wagons from The Midland. He started business in late 1800s/ early 1900s


These are the only details of wagons prior to 1903 that I can see.

 

Most of the details then relate to 1920s/30s

 

Hope this is useful.

 

Jon

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7 minutes ago, Jon4470 said:

Settle was in partnership with Speakman from1901 to 1911 and from then the company of Settle Speakman was formed.

 

Thanks. If one posits wagons on 7 years HP with a repair contract specifying repainting at mid-term, that would suggest, I think, that a photo dominated by P. Speakman & Sons-lettered wagons and no Settle Speakman-lettered wagons must have been taken within about 3 years of Settle Speakman being formed. That would demonstrate that the photo of Jamage Colliery is pre-Great War.

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