MikeOxon Posted September 20, 2021 Share Posted September 20, 2021 4 minutes ago, Compound2632 said: Those trestles are clearly much larger than the trestles mentioned in the Midland instructions. Keeping my eyes open for a photo! ... but the one at the end shows how simple they can be - just a simple wooden frame that could be stacked against a wall. Something to look out for. 2 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Compound2632 Posted September 23, 2021 Author RMweb Premium Share Posted September 23, 2021 A couple of years ago, when I was first contemplating my Drake & Mount wagons (still not quite finished) my neighbour @Gordon Connell drew attention to the mystery of skins being put out at our local station, Earley, around 1909: The mystery is not solved but a similar instance has recently been mentioned on the L&NWR Society's facebook group, re. Welford & Kilworth on the LNWR Rugby - Market Harborough line: in a 1908 WTT, a down express goods train was booked to stop at Welford & Kilworth on Sundays only "to detach skin traffic when required" - i.e. wagonload traffic, it would seem. In this instance it appears that North Kilworth was a centre for shoemaking, although a local tannery has yet to be identified - skins being, as far as can be ascertained, untreated hides. 2 1 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Compound2632 Posted September 27, 2021 Author RMweb Premium Share Posted September 27, 2021 (edited) @chris p bacon has very kindly and generously sent me a large number of scans of drawings of pre-grouping wagons from old magazines - MRN and its successors, MRC, and RM. These had been found as a collection of detached pages at his club. Many are by Ken Werrett. I am intrigued by Werrett's drawings. He was clearly a professional draughtsman who understood how wagons go together but I do sometimes wonder if the resulting apparent accuracy may not sometimes be a trap. With some drawings one might suppose he had access to official drawings, but I don't think he can have done. He generally says "details taken" at dates between 1916 and 1920. Did he immediately draw up what he had seen and measured, or were the drawings produced much later - mostly being published from the late 60s onwards - half a century later? As an example, compare his drawing of the familiar Midland coke wagon, D342, with the copy of the Derby Carriage & Wagon Drawing Office drawing No. 760 held by the Midland Railway Study Centre [Item 88-D0275]: The Derby drawing shows a line of ⅝" bolts continuing up the main vertical frame, above the inverted-T iron/hinge; this are missing from Werrett's drawing, although they are very clear in photos: [Embedded link to catalogue thumbnail of Midland Railway Study Centre Item 64081.] I think this shows that Werrett hadn't looked inside the wagon, where he would have seen the very substantial iron side knees to which the timer uprights were bolted: This makes me wonder if the Werrett drawing was used when Slaters were cutting the moulds for their 4 mm and 7 mm scale kits over 40 years ago. That might also explain the over-large 10A axleboxes upon which @billbedford has remarked. I've taken to adding the missing bolts using the Archer resin rivet transfers: Others have remarked upon discrepancies between Werrett's drawings and official drawings and photographs: https://www.lner.info/forums/viewtopic.php?p=16454#p16454. It seems clear that Werrett's drawings need to be treated with a little bit of caution and cross-referencing to other sources of information, where that is available - but often it isn't; photos are indistinct, official drawings long lost - so one has to make the best use of what information one has. I would love to know more about Ken Werrett - what were his dates - how old was he when he measured up those wagons in 1916-1920? Did he have an engineering or railway career? All I can really glean is that he was a member of the HMRS, so must have been active in it in the 1960s, perhaps from 1950. All this isn't to look down my nose at @chris p bacon's generosity but rather as a prelude to a most interesting titbit re. The Trestle Question Looking through the Werrett drawings, there are several that depict wagons with sheet bars à la Great Western / SE&C: a Cheshire Lines 10 ton open and its Great Central sibling; a Great Western O2 and a vac-fitted wagon (O15?); where he uses the word trestle for the sheet bar. The final revelation is his drawing of a Midland D299 "showing detachable trestle and bow to prevent hollow sheeting and damage to goods": He adds: "note: these were not used together". One can only suppose that these are drawn from notes taken and / or sketches of the items in service. Unfortunately for this drawing he does not give a date. So here we have a strong piece of secondary evidence for these pieces of goods department equipment but one should continue to hunt for some primary evidence. These would be easy enough to model - a piece of plasticard lengthways or crossways inside the wagon, with the sheet over. But I've been told not to think of building any more D299s until I've finished an administrative task in hand. Edited September 28, 2022 by Compound2632 Images re-inserted 4 5 4 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
kitpw Posted September 27, 2021 Share Posted September 27, 2021 18 minutes ago, Compound2632 said: secondary evidence for these pieces of goods department equipment Even if no photo turns up showing the 'trestle', one could expect to find evidence of abrasion on the wagon end where the trestle is fitted. With no positive fixing, (none is shown on the drawing), it's an interference or friction fit with dubious resistance to transverse movement. The oak bobbins on the chain are presumably intended to allow the sheet to be pulled off the wagon without the trestle and chain ending up in the loader's lap. Perhaps it didn't work very well and wasn't much used? The bow looks a better bet but probably not as effective as the sheet rail as per GWR practice. Kit PW 2 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Regularity Posted September 27, 2021 RMweb Gold Share Posted September 27, 2021 1 hour ago, Compound2632 said: That might also explain the over-large 10A axleboxes upon which @billbedford has remarked Yes, but on the plus side, they are useable in S… 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jwealleans Posted September 27, 2021 Share Posted September 27, 2021 2 hours ago, Compound2632 said: It seems clear that Werrett's drawings need to be treated with a little bit of caution and cross-referencing to other sources of information, where that is available - but often it isn't; photos are indistinct, official drawings long lost - so one has to make the best use of what information one has. I would love to know more about Ken Werrett - what were his dates - how old was he when he measured up those wagons in 1916-1920? Did he have an engineering or railway career? All I can really glean is that he was a member of the HMRS, so must have been active in it in the 1960s, perhaps from 1950. Someone did look into trying to find who owned the copyright and whether a collection could be published. it was a long time ago - probably on the archive site which has now vanished. A list was drawn up of all the known drawings, but I don't believe much was ever discovered about the man himself or any relatives. 2 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crimson Rambler Posted September 27, 2021 Share Posted September 27, 2021 The following observation made by Overseer concening the value or otherwise of Werrett drawings appeared on the 'other' website (1/4/20). It appears in the S7 Group section under the topic Wagon Allsorts . Every Ken Werrett I have looked at in detail has been a work of fiction, very well drawn but little basis in fact and his claimed measure ups must have been very incomplete. To which I added (3/4/20:- Thank goodness - someone else who is very wary of Ken Werret's waggon drawings. They look so convincing - he obviously was a very talented draughtsman - but tragically the drawings' accuracy is not to the same standard. Alarm bells first rang when I saw his drawing of a Midland 10-ton brake van in which the sides were a foot adrift in height. Apologies for mispelling his name! Crimson Rambler 2 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Compound2632 Posted September 27, 2021 Author RMweb Premium Share Posted September 27, 2021 (edited) 3 hours ago, kitpw said: Even if no photo turns up showing the 'trestle', one could expect to find evidence of abrasion on the wagon end where the trestle is fitted. With no positive fixing, (none is shown on the drawing), it's an interference or friction fit with dubious resistance to transverse movement. The oak bobbins on the chain are presumably intended to allow the sheet to be pulled off the wagon without the trestle and chain ending up in the loader's lap. Perhaps it didn't work very well and wasn't much used? The bow looks a better bet but probably not as effective as the sheet rail as per GWR practice. Good photos of the ends of wagons are not easy to find - I've been looking, to build up evidence for the proportion of D299 and D351 wagons built with the extra end vertical ironwork. What is clear is that trestles of some sort were standard equipment over a period from the 1880s to just before the Great War, as they are mentioned in Goods Manager's circulars etc. There's no such evidence for the bow, though - at least not under that name. 1 hour ago, Crimson Rambler said: Every Ken Werrett I have looked at in detail has been a work of fiction, very well drawn but little basis in fact and his claimed measure ups must have been very incomplete. He habitually draws the numberplate too small and puts it on the left (wrong) side of the brake V-hanger instead of the right (right) side. Did that mislead Slaters too? Along with the trestle and bow, I'm finding all sorts of little things for which I have not come across any other evidence. He has a drawing of a low goods wagon - D305, of the Drg. 1143 variety - lettered ED but with a T between the E and D, with the note "T = to be used for tar". On the same drawing he has the number 10 inside the crownplate of the left-hand axleguard [vide S. Lea, 8 Ton High-sided Wagon No. 88181, Midland Railway Society Journal No. 76 (2021)], labelling it "Depot Number". Is that a fact, or a wild guess? Edited September 27, 2021 by Compound2632 2 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Regularity Posted September 27, 2021 RMweb Gold Share Posted September 27, 2021 Hi earlier published drawings often have less detail: I wonder if he worked them up at a later date? 1 4 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium airnimal Posted September 27, 2021 RMweb Premium Share Posted September 27, 2021 (edited) Many years ago I was told that Ken Werrett,s father had a wagon repair yard where Ken would measure up wagons and jot down the dimensions in a note book. He then did his drawings years later. I was told that he lived in a caravan that was crammed full of drawings piled high. I tell this without any evidence or proof and if I have blackened his name then I can only apologise to his memory. Without his drawings in MRN / RM / MRC I would not have made as many models that I did in the 60s and 70s. Edited September 28, 2021 by airnimal Bad spelling 6 2 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Compound2632 Posted September 28, 2021 Author RMweb Premium Share Posted September 28, 2021 12 hours ago, airnimal said: Without his drawings in MRN / RM / MRC I would not have made as many models that I did in the 60s and 70s. Indeed; his drawings are better than no drawings at all and more useful than many wagon drawings that have appeared, that are little better than sketches. 12 hours ago, airnimal said: Ken would measure up wagons and jot down the dimensions in a note book. He then did his drawings years later. Yes, it's clear that he understood how a wagon goes together, even if there are errors in going from his notes to the drawing board - hardly surprising given the interval of time between making the notes and doing the drawings. 12 hours ago, airnimal said: Many years ago I was told that Ken Werrett,s father had a wagon repair yard Now that is interesting in itself as it leads to the inference that during the Great War (say from 1916) and for several years after, the private wagon trade was repairing railway company wagons, not just PO mineral wagons. But if that was the case, I'm surprised at some of the vehicles he was seeing there such as fully fitted Midland banana and meat vans and biscuit wagons. There are some other exotics. His drawing of a Midland D379 meat van (which is a particularly dodgy one, certainly in the representation of the passenger-style panelling) comes with a list of drawings already published (in MRN, I presume) starting in July 1959 with a Cleobury Mortimer & Ditton Priors Light Railway 8 ton wagon and including a Colne Valley & Halsted 10 ton high sided wagon (Jan 1961). The meat van drawing must have been published in May 1961. 4 1 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Compound2632 Posted September 28, 2021 Author RMweb Premium Share Posted September 28, 2021 (edited) On 27/09/2021 at 20:35, Compound2632 said: On the same drawing he has the number 10 inside the crownplate of the left-hand axleguard [vide S. Lea, 8 Ton High-sided Wagon No. 88181, Midland Railway Society Journal No. 76 (2021)], labelling it "Depot Number". Is that a fact, or a wild guess? Werrett's drawing of the D304 vacuum-braked open for Carr's biscuit traffic also shows the "depot number" 1 - which is visible on the official photo of No. 65721, Midland Wagons Plate 108. These wagons had oil axleboxes; he draws the detail reproduced below - the outer arc is I suppose intended to be the inside curve of the crownplate but it doesn't quite tie in with the bobbin-shaped sheet tie cleat that was mounted towards the bottom of the solebar, in line with the axle: Edited September 28, 2022 by Compound2632 image re-inserted 2 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Mikkel Posted September 28, 2021 RMweb Gold Share Posted September 28, 2021 2 hours ago, Compound2632 said: But if that was the case, I'm surprised at some of the vehicles he was seeing there such as fully fitted Midland banana and meat vans and biscuit wagons. I've been told that he also did drawings when he came upon survivors later on in life. So perhaps his father's yard was just the beginning. 4 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jwealleans Posted September 28, 2021 Share Posted September 28, 2021 If drawings are being done from memory, even not very long term, it's surprising what errors can creep in. I have an Edwards Brothers drawing of a Belgian ferry van which clearly states that the lettering is yellow (on a white van). It was red - it was the brake levers which were yellow. 3 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Compound2632 Posted September 28, 2021 Author RMweb Premium Share Posted September 28, 2021 6 minutes ago, Mikkel said: I've been told that he also did drawings when he came upon survivors later on in life. So perhaps his father's yard was just the beginning. He doesn't use the Midland diagram numbers; I do so here for convenience: D387 banana van "details taken 1919" D365 banana van "details taken 1917" D395 refrigerator meat van "details taken 1918" No date given for the D304 Carr's Biscuits fitted open. 3 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Popular Post Compound2632 Posted October 7, 2021 Author RMweb Premium Popular Post Share Posted October 7, 2021 (edited) Some wagons out of the paint shop and lined up for photographic inspection: Pre-diagram book, pre-lot book high sided open No. 6693: It is unknown how many wagons were built to this design before the move to 2'10" deep 5-plank high sided wagons; the one official photo is of No. 6693, one of 250 built in 1877, and marked for loco coal [Midland Wagons Plate 15]. That is the only number I've been able to find, so I've used it here - early style numberplate with smaller MIDLAND and bigger digits. These wagons certainly remained in traffic until at least the 1890s, as witnessed by two in a photo at Elstree and one at Somers Town, as discussed earlier in the build. In neither of those photos can the brake gear be seen - I suppose it is possible that by the later 1890s they might have been given iron brake blocks. The one seen at Somers Town had had its original axleboxes replaced by the Ellis 10A type; the two at Elstree still had the earlier type. So there's the possibility of ringing the changes on any further models of the type. D343 8 ton hopper bottom wagon No. 74888: Not one of my better efforts, I'm afraid: it looks too much like a Slater's D299 kit with extra bits stuck on. I only have a total of four numbers for these wagons, three from Essery and one off the Ken Werrett drawing. I've used one of the Essery numbers, though I've not tracked down the original source. The only photo I know of where the number can be discerned is the official photo of No. 98765 from the first batch, lot 200 raised in 1888 [Midland Wagons Plate 118]. That has the oddity of round-bottomed axleboxes and also has the additional vertical washer plate on the end, between the end pillars (as seen on D299s built in the late 80s / early 90s); it is my opinion based on the evidence I have that this feature had been discontinued by the time the later batches of hopper bottom wagons were built, 1894-8 [Midland Wagons Plate 119]. For what it's worth, the Werrett drawing does show the end washer plate; the number he gives is 104360. The total number of Midland wagons got into the 98,000s sometime in late 1890 and into the 104,000s sometime in the first half of 1892 - this was the absolute peak period for new wagon construction, and old private owner wagons were still being bought up. (Compare D351 side and end door wagon No. 100000 of lot 244, raised 1890, the first lot of the type [Midland Wagons Plate 110].) That perhaps suggests that these first lots of both types, each for 1,000 wagons, were ordered to capital account, taking previously unused numbers; on this theory construction of the first lot of hopper bottom wagons must have progressed slowly. Subsequent lots, I postulate, will have been built to revenue account as replacement of ex-private owner wagons, hence taking lower numbers, as with No. 74888, which I built without the end washer plates. Mention of ex-private owner wagons brings me on to No. 47394: The camera is cruel! Not only does it bring to attention the broken brake push rod safety loop on No. 74888 but it also exposes the warped construction of this whitemetal kit (the Roxey ex-Chatham "Parry" wagon) and also the complete lack of brakes - something I didn't notice until I was well on with the painting - that's a hazard with 19th century wagons; if you see no brakes, you assume they're on the other side! Also the bent axle guard keeper plate - a casualty of spraying matt varnish outdoors on a windy day in a cardboard box spray booth precariously balanced on a garden chair... I built this wagon a while ago but had left it in primer pending a suitable livery; the fit took me to make it stand for one of the 66,813 private owner wagons bought up between 1882 and 1895. The number, 47394, is simply one of the many (over 98%) of Midland wagon numbers for which I have identified no specific wagon type. It is slap bang in the range for bought-up PO wagons and their D299 replacements; I dare say someone will now turn up a photo of a D299 wagon with this number, showing that the ex-PO wagon was replaced well before 1902! There were, however, still several thousand dumb-buffered ex-PO wagons still running in the early 20th century, so I could do with some more - the 5-plank variety seems on the whole less common than ones with four wider planks, for which various of @5&9Models's whitemetal kits could do duty. There's very little known about the provenance of these wagons; even the Midland itself didn't have very good records, if the culprit in an accident at Martham on the Eastern & Midlands Railway in 1884 is typical. Maj. Maradin's report does not give the number of this wagon, merely stating "the Midland truck which left the rails is one which was bought by the Company from some trader, and no record exists of the date when it was built." Finally, after these exotica, a bog-standard D299 high sided open of 1890s vintage, No. 89714: This is another number given in Midland Wagons for which I have not yet tracked down the source. Painting follows my established routine for Midland wagons: wheels removed Halfords grey primer, from a rattle can Precision LMS freight stock grey, brushed on then before that is dry, let-down black, well thinned with dirty thinners is worked in the interior of the wagon is given a coat of a beigey unpainted wood colour - if the wagon is to be loaded, this is only round the top few millimetres running gear and interior ironwork is painted with let-down matt black - a bit of grey mixed in Humbrol gloss varnish brush painted on wherever transfers are to go Transfers applied - all the transfers are the waterslide ones now supplied with Slater's kits except the M R on the D299 which are old Pressfix transfers; the numberplates are my home-made ones. Humbrol matt varnish over all A wash of well-thinned dirty black liberally applied and then wiped off with any tool to hand - a combination of finger and old toothbrush works well for me Slater's 3-link couplings fitted and wheels replaced. These wagons were done as a batch, so have come out much the same. Different painting sessions result in different degrees of darkened grey, the idea being to build up the impression of wagons that have been in service for different lengths of time since they were last painted. Edited May 4, 2022 by Compound2632 Images re-inserted 20 2 1 7 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Mikkel Posted October 8, 2021 RMweb Gold Share Posted October 8, 2021 Such an interesting and well executed set. Good to see them painted. I like the finish, especially on 6693. No. 74888 works for me. If the top of the R could be raised a little (it currently emphasises the join) it would be even better, but that may be easier said than done. The prototype info helps bring the wagons to life, and vice versa. Which I believe is your aim, if I remember correctly. History on wheels! 2 2 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Rowsley17D Posted October 8, 2021 RMweb Gold Share Posted October 8, 2021 Stephen, I'm intrigued to find out how you make your Midland wagon number plates, please. Apologies if it's hidden elsewhere in the thread. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Compound2632 Posted October 8, 2021 Author RMweb Premium Share Posted October 8, 2021 14 minutes ago, Rowsley17D said: Stephen, I'm intrigued to find out how you make your Midland wagon number plates, please. Apologies if it's hidden elsewhere in the thread. I have, but it'll be quicker to repeat than to find! I've drawn a numberplate template up at large scale in CorelDraw, using as reference Drawing 564 of 1882 [Midland Railway Study Centre Item 88-D2021] along with photos of actual plates. The lettering started out as Ariel Black (or similar - I forget which). In CorelDraw, one can convert an object to curves, so once the letters / numbers were to the right height and width, I tweaked, dragged, and nudged them into the right shape. Once I was happy, I reduced them to 12 mm/ft scale and mass-produced numberplates, using known numbers for specific diagrams, mostly. The final set of plates is then reduced to 4 mm/ft scale and printed out at best quality and 600 dpi on glossy photo paper with an hp inkjet printer. Using a very sharp blade, I cut out the numberplates, cutting just through the hard glossy layer of the photo paper. The numberplates are then peeled off the backing layers of the paper, any fibres sticking to the back are scraped off, and the corners trimmed. They're stuck on to the model, usually using Rocket cyano. My bottle of that is now completely stuck up, so I've experimented with UHU (OK but strings) and Di-Limonene, which works but causes the ink to fade. This is done along with all the lettering, before spraying with matt varnish. I've not only done Midland numberplates - S&DJR (much the same); LNWR (easier to cut out since they're rectangular); L&YR; LB&SCR. I claim no great originality for the method: @Worsdell forever has done much the same for NER plates, though I'm not sure of he uses photo paper. If you (or anyone else) is interested, I can send you some in pdf, on condition that you Solemnly Swear not to rip them off for commercial gain. I usually print directly from CorelDraw but I think pdf should work just as well. 2 1 6 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Compound2632 Posted October 9, 2021 Author RMweb Premium Share Posted October 9, 2021 (edited) I've been following a random train of thought. The LNWR Society Facebook Group had a post with a photo of the aftermath of an accident on the LNWR at Chelford, Cheshire, in 1894, which had me off burrowing through the accident reports. This led me to Lt.-Col. Yorke's report into a three-train pile-up at Verdin's Sidings just north of Winsford Junction on 3 July 1899. There were mercifully no injuries beyond shocks and bruises but much destruction of goods wagons, all dutifully recorded. The fault lay with the driver of the 10 pm Crewe-Garston coal train, who, after setting off several wagons at Verdin's siding, mistook the signals on the down main for his own, though he was on the down loop - there had been a notice of a change in the signalling here that he admitted to not having read. His train, Coal Engine No. 940 with 32 wagons, 30 loaded and two empty, and brake, ploughed off the end of the loop into the abutment of an overbridge, despite his attempts to put the engine in reverse and the guard, realising the error, screwing down his brake. Wagons were thrown onto the down main, where they were struck by the 9 pm Crewe-Carlisle express goods, 42 wagons and break, headed by 6ft Whitworth 2-4-0 No. 901 Hero. The signalman at Verdin's sidings box threw his up main signals to danger, so the 9:55pm Liverpool-Abergavenny return excursion, headed by Special DX No. 1243, was slowing in anticipation of seeing the up home at danger when it struck the wreckage. The list of damaged stock is interesting. There were quite a number of foreign wagons, all of which, I would presume, were in the Carlisle express goods - that's the train to model if you want an eclectic lot of pre-grouping goods wagons: Furness van and open GNoS meat van Great Eastern open G&SW meat van, van, and fish truck two North British opens along with a L&NW covered goods and 13 L&NW opens. There's a L&NW traffic coal wagon listed; that was almost certainly in the Garston coal train, along with nine Midland Coal, Coke & Iron Co wagons and three of P. Speakman & Sons. The Midland Coal, Coke & Iron Co is well known to me - there are several of their wagons drawn in Tavender's Coal Trade Wagons and we've seen several more in the down empty goods train caught in photos of the wreckage of the Wellingborough accident. Curiously, six of the MCC&I Co's wagons have numbers in the range 1625-1693, suggesting this might be block working of a set of wagons from a particular batch? These numbers are missing from the list of MCC&I Co wagons hired from the Birmingham RC&W Co given by Tavender but another casualty, No. 2139, can be identified as one of a batch of 105 10 ton wagons bought on deferred terms on 1 April 1890. (The Birmingham RC&W Co's records survive in the Staffordshire Record Office, I gather, so that firm seems to be the best documented after the Gloucester RC&W Co.) One MCC&I Co wagon was so completely broken up that its number could not be identified. I thought the chances of finding out anything about P. Speakman & Sons' wagons were slim. They probably had a rather smaller fleet, though still larger than many - their damaged wagons were Nos. 164, 365, and 412. However, idly googling for images relating to the MCC&I Co, I came across this photo of Jamage Colliery, which, like the MCC&I Co's Apedale Colliery, was in the Noth Staffordshire coalfield: [http://nsmg.apedale.co.uk/Mouldspits/bpits.htm] According to that site, Jamage (Bignall Hill) Colliery was acquired by Settle Speakman in 1918. (Graces Guide suggests that was a firm, perhaps incorporating Philip Speakman & Sons. Other than that there's nothing on Philip Speakman & Sons, though there is an entry for John Speakman & Sons, owners of collieries in Leigh in the 1890s. I don't know what date to put on this photo - pre or post-Great War? - but I think that's a North Staffs tank engine lurking amongst the wagons - possibly a Class D 0-6-0T? As Philip Speakman & Sons advertise themselves on their wagons as a Liverpool firm and evidently had interests in a North Staffs colliery, the presence of their wagons in a Crewe-Garston coal train is intelligible! Edited September 28, 2022 by Compound2632 image re-inserted 7 3 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Compound2632 Posted October 9, 2021 Author RMweb Premium Share Posted October 9, 2021 I hadn't checked the Lightmoor Index which lists Philip Speakman & Sons as appearing in Turton's Twelfth, which I don't have, and both Philip and John in Watt's Ince book, which I do. Watts has only an advert for P. Speakman and Sons but for J. Speakman there's a photo of an end-door 10 ton wagon, also with the large S on the door but not set in a diamond; it is possibly an Ince product of 1889/90; the date of the photo is not given but the next wagon is a Midland D351 end door wagon, in Midland livery but without the running number below the M, so the photo could be but isn't necessarily pre-Great War. The firm advertises itself as of Leigh & Bedford, though Watts speculates that export could have been through Garston Docks. I expect that Turton gives some account of the firm of P. Speakman & Sons and also of Settle Speakman, listed as appearing in his Eleventh - another I don't have. I see that these liveries have appeared on various RTR wagons, of which the less said the better. 5 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Compound2632 Posted October 9, 2021 Author RMweb Premium Share Posted October 9, 2021 (edited) Looking more closely at the Jamage Colliery photo, I think that in addition to the Speakman and Bagnall Hall Colliery wagons, I spy a couple of City of Birmingham Gas Department hopper wagons. The Gas Department didn't own any conventional wooden wagons until 1902, its fleet in the 19th century being made up of these bespoke hopper wagons, eventually 500 of them according to Keith Turton's article on Warwickshire Railways. Of course they won't have immediately gone out of use once wooden wagons were acquired but their presence does perhaps support a pre-Great War date for the photo. RTR models of both the hopper and wooden wagons used to be available: Edited September 28, 2022 by Compound2632 Images re-inserted 6 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon4470 Posted October 9, 2021 Share Posted October 9, 2021 I’m an occasional visitor to this fascinating thread. I do have Turton volume 11.. so maybe I can summarise the Settle Speakman section. Jamage colliery closed in 1925. Philip Speakman was a coal factor from Liverpool. Founded in 1860. Joel Settle was based in the Potteries area and specialised in small sized coal. Looks like he invented/ developed coal washing plants to use up what was regarded as waste coal by cleaning it. Settle was in partnership with Speakman from1901 to 1911 and from then the company of Settle Speakman was formed. Joel Settle owned 70 wagons early on and started by hiring seven 7 ton wagons from The Midland. He started business in late 1800s/ early 1900s These are the only details of wagons prior to 1903 that I can see. Most of the details then relate to 1920s/30s Hope this is useful. Jon 1 1 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Compound2632 Posted October 9, 2021 Author RMweb Premium Share Posted October 9, 2021 7 minutes ago, Jon4470 said: Settle was in partnership with Speakman from1901 to 1911 and from then the company of Settle Speakman was formed. Thanks. If one posits wagons on 7 years HP with a repair contract specifying repainting at mid-term, that would suggest, I think, that a photo dominated by P. Speakman & Sons-lettered wagons and no Settle Speakman-lettered wagons must have been taken within about 3 years of Settle Speakman being formed. That would demonstrate that the photo of Jamage Colliery is pre-Great War. 2 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rail-Online Posted October 10, 2021 Share Posted October 10, 2021 I seem to recall that there was an illustrated article on Settle Speakman (and consistuent) PO wagons in an issue of Model Railways (the mag that continued at a larger format from model Railway News) in the (late) 1970s - anyone got a copy? Tony 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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