More Pre-Grouping Wagons in 4mm - the D299 appreciation thread.

[kitpw]

9 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

To test the loading hypothesis

I'm hopeless with arithmetic but I started from the other end so to speak: the film claims 250,000 bricks in the train.  A brick, typically, weighs in at about 5lbs so the total load is in the order of 1,250,000lbs or 558tons (2240 seems idelibly printed on memory for some reason - I haven't used imperial for years!).  I counted 30 wagons although there were some jumpy bits in the film so some may have been skipped and not all were the same size or carrying capacity.  Nevertheless, 558 tons in 30 wagons is about 18 tons per wagon... so I probably can't count and the film data is probably a bit exagerated...or, as you say, the wagons are overloaded!

 

Kit PW

Edited November 5, 2021 by kitpw
spelling (as well as arithmetic)

[Compound2632]

More data on Flettons in this textbook from the Mortar Industry Association, which gives a bulk density of 1330 kg/m3 (= 83 lb/ft3). However, the term bulk density is not, as far as I can see, defined. It is also stated in the glossary the Flettons have a particularly deep frog. If one assumes traditional brick dimensions of 9" x 4½" x 3" (volume 121.5 cu in = 0.07 cu ft) with a frog extending to half the depth of the brick and surrounded by a ¾" flat part, then the volume of the frog is about 16 cu in, or just 13% of the total volume. So that doesn't account for the discrepancy in the figures I'm using.

 

13 minutes ago, kitpw said:

I'm hopeless with arithmetic but I started from the other end so to speak: the film claims 250,000 bricks in the train.  A brick, typically, weighs in at about 5lbs

 

Taking the 83 lb/ft3 figure, with the brick dimensions above, gives 5.8 lb per brick. So I think we have to assume some hyperbole on the part of the film makers! Nevertheless, a job for a D!

[Compound2632]

5 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

Nevertheless, a job for a D!

 

On closer inspection, a Super D, I should have said - it's got a Whale tender but whether it's a G or a G1 is a bit beyond me.

 

The film captions state that the LNWR is taking away a day's production of 250,000 bricks. It implies that that's that one train but that need not actually have been the case.

 

Is there anyone out there with:

• a 100-year-old Fletton brick that they can weigh and measure up?
• a 1921 WTT for this section of the LNWR?

[kitpw]

21 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

a 100-year-old Fletton brick that they can weigh and measure up?

 

I've been looking but only turned up a couple of Victorian blue Staffordshires, some old London stocks, new(ish) London stocks (which are slightly smaller than the imperial ones) and some sand-limes, obtained as samples a few years ago;  also a variety of reds and purples of unknown origin... but I haven't been down the back of the workshop yet (a 300mm gap between wall and boundary fence).

 

Kit PW

[Compound2632]

27 minutes ago, kitpw said:

Victorian blue Staffordshires

 

I'd be interested in the dimensions of those too. One of the problems with scaling buildings from photos by counting bricks is that many of these 19th century bricks were taller than the usually-assumed 3".

[kitpw]

59 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

problems with scaling buildings from photos by counting bricks

It is a problem. I lived in a house as a boy which was built of 2" bricks so the old measure of "4 course to the foot" certainly didn't hold good for that one.  My father-in-law's office building in Coventry, dating to about 1890, was brick built and and about three and three quarter courses to the foot, so a larger brick than "standard".  The brick tax was repealed (if I remember correctly) in 1850 but the larger sizes which had crept in to avoid the tax (which was by size, not area) persisted as many brickworks had installed machinery to press larger bricks.  In consequence, it's reasonable to assume 4 courses to the foot (particularly when scaled to 4mm/ft) but not entirely reliable, particularly in buildings up to the later Victorian period and, for some reason, further north in the UK than the london clay areas.  The things required to be fitted into brickwork - doors, windows and so on - encouraged standardisation of brick dimensions and I suspect that the railways assisted the process as building components could be distributed more widely and easily: a bit like the stardardisation of time!

 

I'll happily measure the Staffordshire blues and the old London stocks and report back in due course.

 

Kit PW

[mike morley]

Forders, along with all the other brickworks in a band that ran from the far side of Peterborough to Calvert, near Buckingham, became part of the London Brick Company, for whom I worked briefly in the very late 80's.  The methods of working then were hardly any different to those in the film - the internal narrow gauge railways had been replaced by long conveyor belts and the finished product was taken away by lorry instead of standard gauge railways, that's all.  The only thing someone from that film would not have recognised in the late 80's were fork-lift trucks.

The clay LBC and Forders before them used (Lower Oxford Gault, IIRC) had a substantial carbon content.  This meant less coal was needed to fire the bricks and meant they cost somewhat less to both produce and buy.  It also meant the finished bricks were porous so would have weighed rather less than those of other companies.

Being porous also meant LBC could not produce Engineers Blue bricks, which rely on their density for strength.

[Regularity]

Loading the bricks higher than the wagon side is easy, as long as you remember that bricks have three different dimensions for length, breadth and height: the latter two are not the same.

\

[turbos]

2 minutes ago, Regularity said:

Loading the bricks higher than the wagon side is easy, as long as you remember that bricks have three different dimensions for length, breadth and height: the latter two are not the same.

\

That nicely explains the raised ridge around the top layer of brinks on the single plank wagon.

 

I’m glad I posted this video here as it’s created a lot more wider discussion than on a purely LNWR discussion thread.

 

Those MR D299 do seem to appear everywhere, I must get round to building my Slaters kit!

 

Brian.

[jamie92208]

7 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

More data on Flettons in this textbook from the Mortar Industry Association, which gives a bulk density of 1330 kg/m3 (= 83 lb/ft3). However, the term bulk density is not, as far as I can see, defined. It is also stated in the glossary the Flettons have a particularly deep frog. If one assumes traditional brick dimensions of 9" x 4½" x 3" (volume 121.5 cu in = 0.07 cu ft) with a frog extending to half the depth of the brick and surrounded by a ¾" flat part, then the volume of the frog is about 16 cu in, or just 13% of the total volume. So that doesn't account for the discrepancy in the figures I'm using.

 

 

Taking the 83 lb/ft3 figure, with the brick dimensions above, gives 5.8 lb per brick. So I think we have to assume some hyperbole on the part of the film makers! Nevertheless, a job for a D!

As has been menti9ned by Mike Morley, Fletton bricks were partially self firing. I had a couple for some reason and from memory they felt about half the weight of a decent Morley made Armitage brick.  Armitage was,and still is, the local brick company in Morley.  

 

Jamie

[Simond]

On 05/11/2021 at 12:40, kitpw said:

...and the rainwater?  Bricks are commonly stacked in the open after firing and will have taken up - lots of variables here, type of clay, degree of firing etc - maybe up to 25% by weight.  I also wondered about sheeting in transit but since they are stored in the weather before transit, if they get wet en route, it won't make much difference to the weight of the load - storage on the building site is more important since too dry or too wet affects the performance of the structure.  Forders made fletton bricks: Phorpres ("four pressed") was their brand: I'm sure I've got a few somewhere outside weighing down mesh to keep the squirrels from excavating bulbs in the garden: maybe I should weigh one (not the squirrel, the brick).

 

Kit PW

i suspect that trying to weigh the squirrel would be far more entertaining 

 

do please post a video.

[kitpw]

On 05/11/2021 at 15:57, Compound2632 said:

I'd be interested in the dimensions of those too

https://jaharrison.me.uk/Brickwork/Collection.html is an interesting resource for the brick enthusiast.  Looking through the list, it does appear that generally (I only ever half believed it) the further north the brickmaker, the larger the brick (in height).  Values range from London Brick Co at 62mm to Cadder Brick Co in Glasgow with 86: 4 x 86 + 4 bed joints (nominal 10mm) is 384, considerably more than the distinctly south country "4 course to the foot".  If you know the region that you're modelling and can refer to the Harrison list for guidance, then counting brick courses could turn up a reasonably accurate guess.

 

Simond: I will devise a system for squirrel weighing.  During the last 6 weeks or so, they have chopped off dozens of sprigs of holly with nice red berries such that the Christmas pudding will be bereft. The berries are buried (well they would be, wouldn't they) along with two golf balls and several walnuts in the lawn at the back.  If we left the premises for a year or so, we would find a carpet of small holly trees all over the back garden on our return.  The squirrels, as far as I know, do not play golf.

 

Kit PW

 

 

[Compound2632]

2 minutes ago, kitpw said:

https://jaharrison.me.uk/Brickwork/Collection.html is an interesting resource for the brick enthusiast.  Looking through the list, it does appear that generally (I only ever half believed it) the further north the brickmaker, the larger the brick (in height).  Values range from London Brick Co at 62mm to Cadder Brick Co in Glasgow with 86: 4 x 86 + 4 bed joints (nominal 10mm) is 384, considerably more than the distinctly south country "4 course to the foot".  If you know the region that you're modelling and can refer to the Harrison list for guidance, then counting brick courses could turn up a reasonably accurate guess.

 

There was a bit of a do with the building of the Midland Grand Hotel in the 1860s, when the Directors started to get twitchy about cost. G.G. Scott had specified I certain make of brick that was rather expensive and also larger than the standard London brick. 

 

4 minutes ago, kitpw said:

The berries are buried (well they would be, wouldn't they) along with two golf balls and several walnuts in the lawn at the back.  If we left the premises for a year or so, we would find a carpet of small holly trees all over the back garden on our return.  The squirrels, as far as I know, do not play golf.

 

In our back garden, we've observed a squirrel coming back to recover buried horse chestnuts. They do seem to have a very strong sense of location. So I'd bet you wouldn't find holly trees. You might get a couple of golf ball trees, as golf balls are inedible to squirrels.

[kitpw]

20 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

certain make of brick that was rather expensive

Historic England's St Pancras Station entry has this: "Deep red Gripper's patent Nottingham bricks with Ancaster stone dressings and shafts of grey and red Peterhead granite"; the brick maker is described here https://eastmidlandsnamedbricks.blogspot.com/2016/05/nottingham-brickworks-part-1-mapperley.html.  The figure given by several sources is that 60 million bricks were used.  How many wagons to carry that lot?

 

Kit PW

 

 

 

 

[Compound2632]

5 minutes ago, kitpw said:

How many wagons to carry that lot?

 

That's it - Gripper. Good question: what did a Midland open of the 1860s look like - what was its capacity and dimensions? The 3-plank dropside was the commonest Midland type at that time (unlike other lines where the 1-plank (fixed 11" sides) wagon predominated. Capacity by weight, 6 tons; by volume, not that dissimilar to later versions, around 180 cu ft.

Edited November 6, 2021 by Compound2632

[jamie92208]

8 hours ago, kitpw said:

Historic England's St Pancras Station entry has this: "Deep red Gripper's patent Nottingham bricks with Ancaster stone dressings and shafts of grey and red Peterhead granite"; the brick maker is described here https://eastmidlandsnamedbricks.blogspot.com/2016/05/nottingham-brickworks-part-1-mapperley.html.  The figure given by several sources is that 60 million bricks were used.  How many wagons to carry that lot?

 

Kit PW

 

I remember reading an article about the restoration of St Pancras and a lotof Brickwork had to be replaced on the east side opposite Kings Cross. Most of this was window surrounds. The bricks all had to be specially made in a particular brickworks anf then transported, laid out in the final pattern, one window at a time. Not in D299's direct to the worksite though, the wagon lift had been taken out by then.

 

Jamie

[Compound2632]

This photograph does not show bricks being delivered but it does show a line of 1860s-vintage dropside wagons - the pattern of ironwork on the inside ends (which are two rather than three plank) is characteristic; compare Midland Wagons Plates 32, 33, and 35:

 

 

[Embedded link, original photo in the collection of the NRM.]

Edited November 7, 2021 by Compound2632

[Dave Hunt]

10 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

In our back garden, we've observed a squirrel coming back to recover buried horse chestnuts. They do seem to have a very strong sense of location. So I'd bet you wouldn't find holly trees. You might get a couple of golf ball trees, as golf balls are inedible to squirrels.

 

I saw a programme about squirrels a couple of years or so ago that stated that they could remember up to a couple of thousand locations where they buried food and that in the autumn and winter their brains actually get bigger, presumably to facilitate such behaviour.

 

Now, where did I put that screwdriver?

 

Dave

[Compound2632]

10 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

This photograph does not show bricks being delivered but it does show a line of 1860s-vintage dropside wagons - the pattern of ironwork on the inside ends (which are two rather than three plank) is characteristic; compare Midland Wagons Plates 32, 33, and 35:

 

Looking at those wagons again, I believe they have the iron plate on the inside of the lower part of the ends, 9" tall by ¼" thick, that was only dispensed with for new construction in 1909, according to the version Drg. 1143 in the MRSC collection [Item 88-D0155]. It's more clearly shown on Drg. 413 [Item 88-D0100]. 

[kitpw]

Since reading (several sources, as I reported in an earlier comment) the 60 million bricks figure for the Midland Hotel, I have been wondering if this could really be correct.  Curiously, it's reported (Wikipedia) that the number of bricks used to build the viaducts between London Bridge Station and Deptford Creek is....60 million.  The Daily Mail reports that a large number of Lego bricks will be used for Legoland, Dubai....60 million in fact.  The British Library reports that it holds a great many patents and newspapers....60 million of each.  Do I see a pattern here?

 

Kit PW

[Nick C]

I have a question for the wagon experts, if I'm allowed? I'm looking to build up a more representative mix of wagons in my fleet, but being a Southern man I don't know much about the fleets of the other three, and their constituents. Can anyone recommend a few suitable books to get started?

 

I'm mostly interested in the wagons that survived until after the second war, if that's not a blasphemy on this thread! 

[Compound2632]

2 minutes ago, Nick C said:

I have a question for the wagon experts, if I'm allowed? I'm looking to build up a more representative mix of wagons in my fleet, but being a Southern man I don't know much about the fleets of the other three, and their constituents. Can anyone recommend a few suitable books to get started?

 

I'm mostly interested in the wagons that survived until after the second war, if that's not a blasphemy on this thread! 

 

While you are saving up for books*, you could get started on a couple of Cambrian kits for LMS opens (if you are 4 mm) - C58 for D1666 and C57 for D1667 - the LMS equivalent of the 19th century Midland D299 (which they largely replaced) with about 66,000 built 1923-1930; pretty much twice as many as the entire Southern wagon fleet! 

 

*such as:

R.J. Essery, An Illustrated History of LMS wagons (2 Vols., OPC).

P. Tatlow, LNER Wagons (5 Vols, Wild Swan - but for post-WWII, probably only Vols. 4A & 4B are relevant, the earlier volumes dealing with LNER constituent wagons, which would be getting thin on the ground - the same goes for the extensive and cumulatively expensive literature on LMS constituent wagons).

A. G. Atkins, W. Beard and R. Tourret, G W R Goods Wagons (3rd edition, Tourret Publishing, Abingdon, 1998; other editions are available).

[Paul Cram]

There is an earlier single volume by Tatlow on LNER wagons which would probably we adequte for your needs. Would have to be second hand though .

[Compound2632]

1 hour ago, Paul Cram said:

There is an earlier single volume by Tatlow on LNER wagons which would probably we adequte for your needs. Would have to be second hand though .

 

Ditto Essery on LMS wagons: R.J. Essery and K.R. Morgan, The LMS Wagon (David & Charles, 1977), which is in fact all I have, not the two-volume work.

[Compound2632]

On 30/10/2021 at 14:54, wagonman said:

Best I could find was an 1881 Kelly's which does indeed list Robinson as a coal merchant – or rather as two: Henry Robinson & Son, coal & stone merchants of 94 High Street and 46 Newmarket Street, and William Robinson, coal merchant of Cross Street and the railway station. No doubt Ancestry could show what if any relationship there was. Kellys also had Thomas Thornton, coal merchant of Keighley Road.

 

I haven't tackled Kelly's yet but I did spend a merry few hours at the Midland Railway Study Centre last Thursday transcribing the November 1897 pages from the Skipton Minerals Inwards register - so I now have two consecutive months, 2,343 tons 11 cwt of coal in 379 wagon-loads, of which 195 were Midland and 184 private owners.

 

The leading consignees were:

 

• J.J. Robinson, 553 tons 2 cwt in 117 wagon-loads, all but two of which were from St Johns Colliery, Normanton (Lock & Co., Newland) in Midland wagons;
• T. Murgatroyd, 254 tons 15 cwt in 48 wagon-loads, almost all from Houghton Main Colliery, Darfield, in a roughly equal combination of the colliery's wagons, Midland wagons, and his own;
• T. Thornton, 172 tons 7 cwt in 35 wagon-loads, about one third from St Johns in Midland wagons and two-thirds from West Riding Colliery, Altofts, mostly in the colliery's wagons (Pope & Pearson) but also in his own wagon No. 2, which is the most frequently-seen wagon, arriving on nine separate occasions, including one two-day turn-around;
• W. Robinson, 164 tons 3 cwt in 29 wagon-loads, all but one from New Sharlston Colliery, Oakenshaw, mostly the Colliery's wagons but around a quarter Midland;
• Railway Servants (Coal Association), 112 tons 12 cwt in 21 wagon loads, two-thirds from Carlton Main Colliery, Cudworth (better-know now as Grimethorpe Colliery) in a mix of the colliery's wagons, the Midland's, and their own, the balance from G. Hough in a mix of Midland and as-yet unidentified PO wagons - I have yet to identify G. Hough; consignments from that firm are recorded as originating at Methley though this is more likely the station at which they came onto the Midland from the L&Y or NER;
• "Brick Co.", 94 tons 1 cwt in 15 wagon-loads, all from Allerton Bywater Colliery on the NER Leeds, Castleford and Pontefract line, in the colliery's wagons, shown as originating at Leeds where they came onto the Midland;
• H. Robinson & Sons, 79 tons 2 cwt in 16 wagon loads, half from Carlton Main, in a mix of the colliery's wagons and the Midland's, but with one load in his own wagon No. 3, the balance from Allerton Bywater, in the colliery's wagons, or from G. Hough.

 

There are quite a number of other consignees receiving sub-50 tons over the two months; they are mostly receiving coal from one or two collieries only, including several of those listed above and chiefly in the Normanton / Barnsley area.

 

One point I draw from this analysis is that a search of the usual sources for PO wagons based in Skipton will give a highly unbalanced view of the Skipton coal trade; even if one extended the net to include colliery PO wagons, the picture would be distorted: some collieries, notably St Johns, the single largest supplier at 591 tons 11 cwt, would be invisible. 

 

I would hesitate to extend this analysis to other areas of the country (especially areas not served by the Midland) or other periods. Between 1887 and c. 1902, the Midland registered around 24,000 PO wagons*, by 1914 that had trebled to 72,000. So don't write off your copy of Ian Pope's Private Owner Wagons of Gloucestershire** but look to see what other mineral wagons are lurking in the background...

 

*Not all of which will have run primarily on the Midland since many registrations are of wagons built by firms such as Eastwood, Turner, or Claye, whose works were served by the Midland, but for customers based in far-flung places such as East Anglia.

 

**Other authors and counties are / will become available.

Edited November 10, 2021 by Compound2632
Data for Midland PO wagon registrations to 1914 added.