More Pre-Grouping Wagons in 4mm - the D299 appreciation thread.

[wagonman]

An interesting and useful analysis. One of these days I must try and work out the average mileage of a typical coal merchant's wagon...

 

 

[Compound2632]

43 minutes ago, wagonman said:

One of these days I must try and work out the average mileage of a typical coal merchant's wagon...

 

Having identified the various collieries, I can at least do a "coal-miles" analysis. T. Thornton's No. 2 made nine round-trips between Pope & Pearson's West Riding Colliery, Altofts, and Skipton. The Distance Diagrams give that at 186 m 26 ch. For simplicity, I'm assuming that wagons for the colliery were worked in and out via the sidings there, rather than going three-quarters of a mile south to the sorting sidings at Normanton. Skipton station is at 221 m 21 c - a one-way trip of 35 miles, give or take a few chains; 630 miles in the two months, 3,780 miles a year, 26,460 miles over a seven-year hire agreement. That's possibly an untypically short round trip, although I imagine a wagon working between the Wakefield area and, say, Ipswich, would make fewer round trips per year.

 

I'm afraid there's no credit nowadays for getting your fossil fuels from close at hand.

Edited November 10, 2021 by Compound2632

[Mikkel]

13 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

26,460 miles over a seven-year hire agreement

 

I.e. a trip around the equator, plus a bit. And that's just for seven years. 

[Compound2632]

8 minutes ago, Mikkel said:

I.e. a trip around the equator, plus a bit. And that's just for seven years. 

 

But compare a dining car on the Scotch express: well over half a million miles in seven years. (Assuming one way each day, six days per week, out of service for one third of the time as it's one of three similar vehicles.)

[Annie]

And then there's the question of which one you'd prefer to take a trip around the equator in.

[Regularity]

4 hours ago, Mikkel said:

 

I.e. a trip around the equator, plus a bit. And that's just for seven years. 

Not 80 days?

[Mikkel]

Well it's not the GWR.

[Compound2632]

46 minutes ago, Mikkel said:

GWR.

 

Great Way Round...

 

I'd better do a bit more on those Swansea Vale POs to to break the downward trend here.

[Compound2632]

I haven't yet. Instead I've been poking around on the internet.

 

As mentioned above, the West Riding Colliery at Altofts supplied several Skipton customers, chiefly T. Thornton, and with the exception of T. Thornton's No. 2, in its own wagons, recorded under the "mark" P&P - for Pope & Pearson, the proprietors. A number of these wagons were registered by the Midland, so the builders and dimensions of them are known - the majority of those that can be thus identified are from a batch of 10 ton wagons registered in August 1889, built by Charles Roberts, with internal dimensions 13'0 x 7'0" x 3'8" and with side, bottom, and end doors. That gives a capacity of 334 cu ft, about 13% greater than a Midland D299. The average load is 7 tons 1 cwt (sigma = 13 cwt). I have managed to track down a couple of distant shots of Pope & Pearson wagons from about this period (late 1890s); in common with many colliery wagons at the time, the owner's name is displayed more prominently than the name of the colliery, in contrast to later practice:

 

 

But the question into which I got side-tracked is, who were Pope and Pearson? The Durham Mining Museum site has an entry for the firm, revealing that in 1923, the chairman was a local bigwig with a legal background: Sir William Middlebrook, Bt., JP, MP, sometime Lord Mayor of Leeds, etc., resident in Scarborough. The Managing Director, J. Alfred Jones, lived in a nobby district of Leeds, but the other two directors lived in the sunny south. Mr H.B. Pope lived in Woking, in a house that, if it still stands, has been renamed. Mr Herbert Pearson was rather local to me, living at Beches, a manor house dating from at least 1624 in Sonning. Sonning has a Pearson Road, named after 19th century Vicar of Sonning, Canon Hugh Pearson, as is the village hall, in which I did once have the misfortune to attend a Medieval Banquet. (Only out of obligation, it being in support of a charity of which my wife is a trustee.) I have not established if Herbert Pearson was related.

 

So Messrs. Pope and Pearson were evidently classic rentier capitalists, comfortable southerners living off the sweat and toil of honest Yorkshiremen, from baronet to coal-hewer.

Edited October 5, 2022 by Compound2632
image re-inserted

[Compound2632]

Further randomness in lieu of actual modelling.

 

Although I'm not a great fan of "specials", I've long been smitten with the D312 15 ton tram engine wagons of 1884, Nos. 18230 and 19890, built to Drg. 627 as lot 122 [Midland Wagons Fig. 158 and Plate 315], more so than their longer siblings, the D311 15 ton trolleys Nos. 10311, 10589, 26939, and 26941, Drg. 607, lot 114 [Midland Wagons Fig. 127 and Plate 268; reference to the lot list shows that the date of 1887 given in the text is a typo for 1884]. 

 

Now some remarks made elsewhere got me looking for photos of Birmingham & Aston Tramways Kitson steam tram engines, leading me to a uniform button collectors' site. Given the interests of the site and also the photographic conventions of the day, there are always staff standing in the way, but there are some crystal-clear images there.

 

The B&AT Co.'s twenty-seven Kitsons date from 1882-6, according to Wikipedia. That's interesting in itself, given the date of construction of the Midland's tram engine wagons - were they built in response to this new business of Kitsons? However, it doesn't help justify one of these wagons in the Birmingham area c. 1902. What does, though, is the hint that some or all were reboilered around the turn of the century. They must have made a trip to Leeds and back for that!

 

I've ordered a book in the hope of learning more. Alphagraphix have a 7 mm scale card kit in their Brumtrams range: 

 

 

[embedded link]

 

... which looks tempting in its own right, quite apart from being a reference for dimensions and livery, in lieu of any primary sources.

 

There were Kitson tram engines of this vintage in Midland ownership, on the Portstewart Tramway. Nos. 1 and 2 survive; they would appear to be smaller engines than the Birmingham examples. 

 

These engines have tall chimneys. Presumably it could be detached when the engine was loaded on a tramcar truck. The attempt to carry smoke clear of the top deck of the passenger car was in vain:

 

 

[embedded link]

[kitpw]

I hope it wasn't the Lover who was "electrocuted"... 

 

Kit PW

 

[John-Miles]

My brother did a thesis on the trams of Brum and the steam trams were relatively underpowered which resulted in the Bristol Road trams originally stopping at Bournbrook because the hill into Selly Oak was beyond their capabilities. When the electric trams appeared their greater power allowed the tracks to be extended to Rednal so Brummies could have a day out on the Lickey Hills.

[Compound2632]

Swansea Vale wagons: microstrip representing the side and end knees has been d-limonene'd in place, likewise for sets of brake gear have had the solid representation of safety loops cut out and replaced with microstrip.

 

I note that my packet of Slaters 0.030" x 0.010" microstrip cost me 95p circa 1982, around £3.40 at today's prices according to the Bank of England Inflation Calculator; the current list price is £4.80. So there's a bargain.

[Andy Hayter]

Perhaps not for long Stephen given recent rises in oil prices.  Buy now or regret.

[Compound2632]

29 minutes ago, Andy Hayter said:

Perhaps not for long Stephen given recent rises in oil prices.  Buy now or regret.

 

Careful now, you don't want to create a panic-buying rush...

[Dave Hunt]

I can see the headline now: BERKSHIRE MAN'S WARNING TRIGGERS PLASTIKARD PANIC - DERBYSHIRE FACTORY BESIEGED

 

Dave

[Andy Hayter]

Followed the next day by Express Headlines of:

 

France provokes worldwide shortage of model supplies to the UK as Brexit Tit for tat.

[jamie92208]

Sacré Blue will I have to hide my purchases in the spare tyre or some other se ret place. I don't want the Douarners at my door.

 

Jamie

[Mikkel]

On 13/11/2021 at 23:49, Compound2632 said:

leading me to a uniform button collectors' site.

 

What an effort that site and its information must have required. I was impressed already at this point:  "Buttons are listed alphabetically in five separate categories". Then I clicked the categories and all those companies appeared.

 

To take just one example among the hundreds, the Burton & Ashby Buttons are quite nice and must please Midland fans:

 

http://www.tramwaybadgesandbuttons.com/page2/page5/page63/page63.html

 

[Compound2632]

Wandering off from wagons a bit but to keep things ticking over, the Midland Railway Study Centre has a good collection of uniform items, including Item 30628, the "Oakham Hoard" unearthed in 2017 in the rear garden of No. 141 Brooke Road, Oakham:

 

 

[Embedded link to catalogue image.] 

 

 

[Ian Smith]

Going back to an earlier discussion on brick loads, I have been intending to do just that for quite a while for Modbury.  The original Yealmpton branch served a brick works at Steer Point, which in my little world meant that some of the Steer Point traffic would have gone through Modbury.

 

Until I saw the loading of the wagons in the linked video(https://www.ampthill.tv/playvideo.html?id=94&fbclid=IwAR3eZd3oo2SmzR3lPCLlZFnI0z2UhhIrzBpa1gesRaXH8i5pKFLCL8hqur0), I was unsure how such traffic would have been transported - on pallets? packed with straw? etc. so didn't feel confident enough to make up a load.  However, with the video evidence I now felt able to have a bit of a go.

 

The photo below shows the results of my endeavours over the last couple of days :

 

The bricks have been scribed onto 0.020" plasticard, and layered to provide "interest".  A base brick colour was applied then a few individual bricks picked out in various brick shades for variety.  A thin wash of brown (old tin of Humbrol track colour) was introduced into the scribed lines to help "separate" the bricks.  A small patch of 0.020" steel has been glued to the underside of each load to facilitate easy removal with a small magnet.  For anyone not familiar with my layout, it is 2mm scale, so that is my excuse for the crudeness of my work!  

 

Ian

[Rowsley17D]

That really is rather good especially given the scale. I also like the baulk-laid trackwork,

you do not often see that modelled in 4 or 7mm let alone 2mm. Well done, sir.

Edited November 19, 2021 by Rowsley17D
gr sp

[Andy Hayter]

54 minutes ago, Ian Smith said:

Going back to an earlier discussion on brick loads, I have been intending to do just that for quite a while for Modbury.  The original Yealmpton branch served a brick works at Steer Point, which in my little world meant that some of the Steer Point traffic would have gone through Modbury.

 

Until I saw the loading of the wagons in the linked video(https://www.ampthill.tv/playvideo.html?id=94&fbclid=IwAR3eZd3oo2SmzR3lPCLlZFnI0z2UhhIrzBpa1gesRaXH8i5pKFLCL8hqur0), I was unsure how such traffic would have been transported - on pallets? packed with straw? etc. so didn't feel confident enough to make up a load.  However, with the video evidence I now felt able to have a bit of a go.

 

The photo below shows the results of my endeavours over the last couple of days :

 

 

Ian

 

 

Not pallets.  They did not appear until after WW2.  You needed some method of lifting the pallet and the load and that relied on WW2 technology.

[Compound2632]

1 hour ago, Ian Smith said:

For anyone not familiar with my layout, it is 2mm scale, so that is my excuse for the crudeness of my work!

 

Crudeness my foot! It would be an interesting experiment to put a mixed portfolio of photos of Modbury and @wenlock's Sherton Abbas in front of people not familiar with either and ask them to identify the scale! Did that photo of your Dean Goods alongside Dave's get taken?

 

54 minutes ago, Andy Hayter said:

Not pallets.  They did not appear until after WW2.  You needed some method of lifting the pallet and the load and that relied on WW2 technology.

 

Indeed, the 1921 film purports to show modern brick making methods but the brick handling methods would have been familiar to a medieval master brick-maker.

[Ian Smith]

On 19/11/2021 at 15:14, Compound2632 said:

 

Crudeness my foot! It would be an interesting experiment to put a mixed portfolio of photos of Modbury and @wenlock's Sherton Abbas in front of people not familiar with either and ask them to identify the scale! Did that photo of your Dean Goods alongside Dave's get taken?

 

 

Indeed, the 1921 film purports to show modern brick making methods but the brick handling methods would have been familiar to a medieval master brick-maker.

Stephen,

Unfortunately, a photo of Dave’s Dean Goods and mine or our 517’s didn’t get taken.  

Some years ago though I did have a photo of one of my 4 wheeled coaches sitting atop of a similar 7mm scale coach (also in Edwardian livery), the 7mm modeller was producing all sorts of Dean coaching stock from Slater’s parts combined with some (I think) 3D printed parts to fabricate things like the deeper vent panels above the doors that some transitional coaches sported.

 

Ian

Edited November 22, 2021 by Ian Smith
To add the photo of one of my 2mm Scale coaches on top of a 7mm scale one (taken at the Helston show in 2017).