More Pre-Grouping Wagons in 4mm - the D299 appreciation thread.

[jamie92208]

There is a brass kit for the Caley bogie wagon. It used to be sold by Dragon model.  I'm not sure if it's still available but thecartwork is on my laptop  as I did some work on it for Chris Badten some years ago.

 

Jamie

[turbos]

3 hours ago, jamie92208 said:

There is a brass kit for the Caley bogie wagon. It used to be sold by Dragon model.  I'm not sure if it's still available but thecartwork is on my laptop  as I did some work on it for Chris Badten some years ago.

 

Jamie

I was vaguely aware of a kit of the Caledonian Leeds Forge bogie mineral, I don’t know much about it as I’ve never seen one. The main difference between the Caledonian and Midland version were the doors, Caledonian used cupboard style, Midland used hinged drop down. Quite easy to produce both types in one kit, if it was to be reissued now would be as good a time as any with the recent release of the Caledonian 812 class locomotive.

 

Brian.

[WFPettigrew]

On 06/01/2022 at 19:18, kitpw said:

It is a Furness wagon - there is another Getty picture of the same scene but looking northeast towards Waterloo bridge which shows it quite clearly.  I tried embedding the picture but it didn't work. (I'll have to ask Mikkel how to do it as I'm obviously no good at following Getty's instructions on embedding).

Kit PW

I have been lurking in this fantastic thread for a long time now, but am prompted by this to make my first posting. 

Even without this very good second picture, the pattern of bolts and rivets, plus the partial view of a FR No 9 axlebox, had pretty much nailed it for me as an FR wagon - a Diagram 5, of which 839 were built from 1909, also including No. 5231 of which I have a photo but better not post as I am not sure of its copyright. 

 

The FR wagon diagrams are available on the website of the Cumbrian Railway Association which is the line society for the Furness Railway (these drawings are those prepared for or just after the grouping) although they are depicted there as having a diagonal bracing strap either side of the side doors, neither of these wagons possess this.  I also have in my collection a Ross Pochin drawing of a Diagram 5, which also does not show this strapping.  He was quite an expert on FR stock and tended to draw from measurement of original wagons or good quality photos - his wagon is numbered 7318 which suggests that they weren't all numbered en bloc. 

 

Neil 

 

[Compound2632]

10 hours ago, turbos said:

The Caledonian used the diamond framed bogie on the one off Dia. 50 of 1899 50 ton bogie mineral available in 00 scale as a kit from Ratio Peco Parkside (as pictured).

 

I'm sure I'm not the only one guilty of one (or more!) of those as a youthful indiscretion. I finished mine in first LMS livery (per the box art) but did this wagon actually survive to the grouping?

 

10 hours ago, turbos said:

Unsurprisingly the Caledonian also had thirty of its Dia.54 30 ton bogie minerals built by the Birmingham RC&W these also had the diamond framed bogies, only the Leeds Forge supplied wagons had the plate frame bogies. 

 

Ah, that confuses the Midland picture since two types, the Leeds Forge, D346, and the with queenpost trussed type, D347, had plate frame bogies... 

 

It is also possible that the diagrams in Midland Wagons are printed in the wrong order and hence mis-labelled - there is at least one other place where that is a source of confusion. 

 

The Midland went on to use diamond bogies for 15 ton tramcar trucks, D318 of 1904, 25 ton trollies, D642 of 1911, 25 ton timber trucks, D827 of 1915, 25 ton trolleys (RECTANK) of 1918, and the 40 ton trolleys - PARROT or similar, but not for a number of other bogie wagons, e.g. the 35 ton rail wagons, D340 of 1907. The Midland Railway Study Centre has Drg. 4143 for the bogie used on the timber trucks [Item 88-D1929].

 

Is the information you have given all in Mike Williams' Caledonian Wagons books or have you used other sources?

Edited January 8, 2022 by Compound2632

[Compound2632]

My detailed knowledge of LNWR engine numbers and build dates was previously limited to the information in J. Goodman, L&NWR Locomotive Names (RCTS, 2002) which, whilst comprehensive, detailed, and reasonably easy to use, does not cover un-named engines. I have obtained, second-hand, a remedy for my ignorance:

 

 

This still leaves the difficulty of choosing one out of a field of 500... This is where a knowledge of turn-of-the-century allocations for Coal Engines and Class A compounds would come in handy - such information appears to be hard to come by, at least in any published form. 247 Developments list but two Coal Engine numbers, one of which is a duplicate list number applied in 1917; that leaves just No. 1100, built in November 1889. There's a wider choice for Class A, including the prototype , No. 50, along with half a dozen others. Then, of course, there's the question of an alternative identity for the Precedent, which again ideally depends on allocations.

 

On the other hand, I'm very happy with my Bachmann Coal Tank as the preserved No. 1054, which was an Aston engine.

Edited October 5, 2022 by Compound2632
image re-inserted

[Jol Wilkinson]

Stephen, 

 

long time ago LRM had a selection of LNWR loco number and nameplates produced.  I am sure  John will still have the pick and mix display box that they were kept in on the exhibition stand counter.

 

The Coal Engine numbers were - 433, 360, 713, 137, 3456 and 3099

 

There were also two A Class plates, 1867 and 50.

 

Jol

 

 

[Penlan]

Compound2632, LRS are doing LNWR number plates to order.
https://www.lightrailwaystores.co.uk/products/npp-418?variant=7040817791042
I had some recently for some LNWR Cauliflowers and Coal Tanks - a satisfied customer.
But if your after a number that nobody else MIGHT have, try CLM, delivery was around 8 weeks.
I had the wrong company, my apologies - sorted now

Number plates are available from other sources too 

Edited January 8, 2022 by Penlan

[turbos]

2 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

I'm sure I'm not the only one guilty of one (or more!) of those as a youthful indiscretion. I finished mine in first LMS livery (per the box art) but did this wagon actually survive to the grouping?

 

 

Ah, that confuses the Midland picture since two types, the Leeds Forge, D346, and the with queenpost trussed type, D347, had plate frame bogies... 

 

It is also possible that the diagrams in Midland Wagons are printed in the wrong order and hence mis-labelled - there is at least one other place where that is a source of confusion. 

 

The Midland went on to use diamond bogies for 15 ton tramcar trucks, D318 of 1904, 25 ton trollies, D642 of 1911, 25 ton timber trucks, D827 of 1915, 25 ton trolleys (RECTANK) of 1918, and the 40 ton trolleys - PARROT or similar, but not for a number of other bogie wagons, e.g. the 35 ton rail wagons, D340 of 1907. The Midland Railway Study Centre has Drg. 4143 for the bogie used on the timber trucks [Item 88-D1929].

 

Is the information you have given all in Mike Williams' Caledonian Wagons books or have you used other sources?

The Mike Williams Caledonian Wagons books are the definitive bible on the subject, the problem is there’s just so much info on them, a great read nonetheless.

 

Is it possible that the Midland American Bogie Minerals are the wagons rejected by the Caledonian?

 

I suspect that the vast majority of Ratio Peco Parkside LMS (CR) Bogie Mineral Wagon kit were painted as per the box art. Although it’s possible it did carry this livery, it’s very doubtful. By the Grouping (and remember the Caledonian wasn’t officially grouped until July 1923) the sole Dia.50 50 ton mineral wagon would be nearing the end of its designed life. There is no record of it being converted to vacuum brake and it isn’t listed in the LMS wagon renumbering. It may have even been scrapped for its valuable bogies before 1923 or have entered department use by then.

 

Brian. 

 

 

[Worsdell forever]

Were all LNWR plates the same style? Can't fault the quality of these, was Narrow Planet, now Light Railway Stores.

 

https://www.lightrailwaystores.co.uk/collections/number-plate-styles/products/npp-418?variant=7040817791042

[Jol Wilkinson]

I have used 247, Narrow Planet and LRM and found them all to be very good. Jackson Evans (now 247?) and PC also produced them, the last stock of the latter now being available from the LNWR Society but they need cutting out and trimming, whereas the others are pre-painted and easily removed from the etch.

[Compound2632]

27 minutes ago, Worsdell forever said:

Were all LNWR plates the same style? Can't fault the quality of these, was Narrow Planet, now Light Railway Stores.

 

The LRS ones say "Webb" which suits me fine since I'm not at all post-Webb! The very first cast plate was made on 11 January 1873, thought to have been 944 for the first Coal Engine [LNWR Liveries, p. 55]. A new type was introduced in May 1906; rather than having L&NWR above the number and CREWE WORKS below, it had CREW WORKS on the left and the month and year of building on the right, all under the number [LNWR Liveries, pp. 73-74].

[Compound2632]

Scouring the LNWR Society Zenfolio site, here's No. 137 (one of the LRM numbers mentioned by Jol), probably post-Great War (no date or location given) but relevant here for the Walsall Wood wagon in the background. Walsall Wood colliery was served by the Midland, via a junction just north of Walsall Wood station on the Brownhills branch, and also by a short mineral line from a junction with the LNWR South Staffs line, north of Pelsall, along with the Daw End branch of the BCN: https://maps.nls.uk/view/115474959.

 

I think the wagon in the photo has six planks. Jim Richards modelled a five-plank wagon, with the main lettering clearly similar:

 

[NRM, embedded link].

Edited January 8, 2022 by Compound2632

[Regularity]

4 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

I have obtained, second-hand, a remedy for my ignorance

Be slightly wary. Despite referring to the book for reference and following it’s suggestions, you may still end up ignorant as to every detail (or even boiler) change…

[Compound2632]

1 minute ago, Regularity said:

Be slightly wary. 

 

Well, let's put it this way: I'm less ignorant than I was before. O for a LNWR equivalent of Stephen Summerson's four volumes of Midland Railway Locomotives! Not that he gives every boiler change - which will be there in the engine history cards, where they exist - but at least the dates of significant changes such as boiler type.

 

At least for c. 1902 one avoids getting into the complications of the Coal Engines' middle and old age, in which, as we all do, they developed their idiosyncrasies.

[Regularity]

My gripe is that presumably the book was compiled from all available recorded information, but on the few instances where I have wanted to verify things, photographic evidence suggests that the records used may not have been complete!

[Jol Wilkinson]

1 hour ago, Compound2632 said:

 

Well, let's put it this way: I'm less ignorant than I was before. O for a LNWR equivalent of Stephen Summerson's four volumes of Midland Railway Locomotives! Not that he gives every boiler change - which will be there in the engine history cards, where they exist - but at least the dates of significant changes such as boiler type.

 

At least for c. 1902 one avoids getting into the complications of the Coal Engines' middle and old age, in which, as we all do, they developed their idiosyncrasies.

Ted Talbot became the guru on LNWR Locomotives and his book tends to be regarded as the definitive source. However, I have found that the Yeadon Books, An Illustrated History of LMS Locomotives, Vol. 5 by Essery and Jenkinson, as well as the various Locomotives Illustrated Magazines on LNWR locos all add further information Talbot's book doesn't contain. As ever, a comprehensive library is needed., which also could contain Harry Jack's book on LNWR Southern Division locos, 

Peter Skellon's book on Coal Tanks, O S Nock's books on LNWR Precursor Family and LNWR locomotives of C. J. Bowen Cooke. but I may have missed something.

[Compound2632]

On 08/01/2022 at 20:04, Jol Wilkinson said:

Yeadon Books, An Illustrated History of LMS Locomotives, Vol. 5 by Essery and Jenkinson

 

Don't have.

 

On 08/01/2022 at 20:04, Jol Wilkinson said:

the various Locomotives Illustrated Magazines on LNWR locos

 

Somewhere, I've got No. 121, Jumbos and Compounds, though that's in part superseded by Peter Davis' recent book. No. 147, LNWR Passenger Tank Engines, and No. 158, LNWR Special Tanks and Coal Tanks, could be of interest, but other numbers are on big 20th century engines.

 

On 08/01/2022 at 20:04, Jol Wilkinson said:

Harry Jack's book on LNWR Southern Division locos, 

 

Have. Splendid book.

 

On 08/01/2022 at 20:04, Jol Wilkinson said:

Peter Skellon's book on Coal Tanks

 

Ought to get.

 

On 08/01/2022 at 20:04, Jol Wilkinson said:

O S Nock's books on LNWR Precursor Family and LNWR locomotives of C. J. Bowen Cooke. 

 

Really? Anyway, see above re. Locomotives Illustrated.

 

Some more progress on the tender, chiefly below stairs. The nickel silver sub-frame components were a joy to solder; the water scoop less so but I got there:

 

 

It was while working out where to position the guard irons that I made the interesting discovery that buffers are not supplied.

Edited October 5, 2022 by Compound2632
image re-inserted

[Compound2632]

On 17/12/2021 at 22:20, Compound2632 said:

The Birmingham District got some of the 468 50 ft arc-roof suburban sets of carriages built 1897-1902, five seven-carriage sets for the Sutton Coldfield / Four Oaks suburban service and five four-coach sets for the Derby trains. The seven-carriage sets were formed brake second / second / second/first composite / first / first/third composite / third / brake third - no two carriages the same. However, it seems these sets were often made up to eight carriages with an additional third or first, as were the two trains involved in an accident at Sutton Coldfield in 1902. The locomotives on that occasion were Nos. 751 and 32; both were eight wheeled tank engines with brakes working on 6 wheels which would make them 0-6-2Ts rather than 2-4-2Ts, but whether Coal or Watford I don't know. I don't have a complete listing of LNWR locomotives and information on allocations at this period seems elusive. But a seven or eight carriage train is a bit on the long side so I'd be tempted to postpone the arrival of the 50 ft carriages...

 

Coal Tanks not Watford Tanks, I learn from Baxter. So that's another part of the LNWR stud sorted - just need some suitable non-corridors.

Edited January 8, 2022 by Compound2632

[billbedford]

11 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

Ah, that confuses the Midland picture since two types, the Leeds Forge, D346, and the with queenpost trussed type, D347, had plate frame bogies... 

 

It is also possible that the diagrams in Midland Wagons are printed in the wrong order and hence mis-labelled - there is at least one other place where that is a source of confusion. 

 

 

Errr no. 

 

Leeds Forge used pressed steel, 'Fox', bogies and solebars, because they held the patents for them. 

 

The GCR had 29  30 ton and 24 40 ton bogie wagon built by Birmingham C&W.  These all had diamond frame bogies. They also one each 30 and 40 ton wagons built by Leeds Forge which had Fox bogies. These all lasted until the early 30s when they were made redundant by the new coaling towers. The bogies were then used on various gun sets. 

 

The GNR bogie wagon were redundant by WW1 and most of them were loaned to the ROD and shipped to France

[Jol Wilkinson]

11 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

Don't have.

 

 

Somewhere, I've got No. 121, Jumbos and Compounds, though that's in part superseded by Peter Davis' recent book. No. 147, LNWR Passenger Tank Engines, and No. 158, LNWR Special Tanks and Coal Tanks, could be of interest, but other numbers are on big 20th century engines.

 

 

Have. Splendid book.

 

 

Ought to get.

 

 

Really? Anyway, see above re. Locomotives Illustrated.

 

Some more progress on the tender, chiefly below stairs. The nickel silver sub-frame components were a joy to solder; the water scoop less so but I got there:

 

 

It was while working out where to position the guard irons that I made the interesting discovery that buffers are not supplied.

 

Stephen,

 

the buffers should have been in the kit. John includes AGW sprung buffers in his kit although supply has been somewhat erratic of late. For LNWR locos these is a choice of Webb, Whale or Bowen Cooke, according to which loco you are modelling. Contact John at LRM so he can send which type you want.

 

Using  P4 wheels I have found that it is best to leave out the etched axle guard supports to provide enough clearance. I solder the cleaned up spring/axlebox to the rear of the spring mounting points on the solebar. The photo below of the 2000g tender I built to go behind the Jubilee will give some idea

 

 

As for LNWR loco books I had forgotten that I have Peter Davis's excellent F. W. Webb's Three-Cylinder Compounds. I think I have managed to acquire most of the LNWR locomotive publications although one or two of the Locomotive Illustrated may have escaped me.

 

Jol

[Compound2632]

16 hours ago, billbedford said:

Errr no. 

 

Leeds Forge used pressed steel, 'Fox', bogies and solebars, because they held the patents for them. 

 

I was lazily using the term "plate frames" to distinguish from the diamond-type bogies but am happy to stand corrected - and has set me off finding out about Fox and his bogies, with help from Grace's Guide. Examining the photo of the Leeds Forge wagon as reproduced in Midland Wagons, Plate 148, the bogie frame and solebar have rounded edges which I take to be an indication of the pressed steel construction. Leeds Forge's 1902 advertising used an picture of one of the wagons built for the Caledonian:

 

 

[Grace's Guide, embedded link].

 

The pressed steel construction is better seen in their 1898 publicity featuring a bogie for passenger stock:

 

 

[Grace's Guide, embedded link].

 

From Grace's Guide, I learn that the "Fox" name comes from Samson Fox (1838-1903), who founded the firm under the name of Fox Brothers & Refitt, c. 1860. His major success prior to moving into pressed steel railway rolling stock was his patent corrugated boiler flue, as advertised in 1882:

 

 

[Grace's Guide, embedded link]. 'In 1877 he developed and patented the corrugated boiler flue for which he became famous. This simple idea involved corrugating the flue pipes inside the boiler, improving both their heat transfer capability and compressive strength, enabling smaller boilers working at higher pressures to be used with improved safety. "Fox Corrugated" was adopted as standard by the Royal Navy and major steamship lines and was widely patented.' [Grace's Guide].

 

The Locomotive Magazine article on the Midland's Leeds Forge wagon highlights the slight dimensional differences compared to the Caledonian wagons - 1'2" longer, 6" narrower, and at 13 tons 2 cwt very slightly heavier. It also remarks on the lack of continuous brakes, unlike the Caledonian wagons, opining that these would be necessary in the long run, as would more powerful locomotives. That last point might be questioned, since the object of these wagons was to increase the payload to tare weight ratio - 3:1 for these wagons whereas as we've seen from the Skipton mineral register, the standard 8 ton 5-plank wagons of D299 and D351 were in practice only just achieving 1:1! On the other hand, at 39 ft over buffers, these wagons were carrying the load of four 8 ton wagons in the length of two, so if one supposes that lay-by length was the limit to train length, a train of the bogie wagons could convey twice the tonnage of coal of a train of 8 ton wagons of the same length for about a 30% increase in tare weight, overall a 70% increase in train weight. Unfortunately that calculation is academic, since these wagons didn't catch on, for reasons that have been rehearsed numerous times elsewhere on RMWeb.

 

From their diagram (Midland Wagons Fig. 54) and Drg. 1555, the design with queenpost trussing (whether Birmingham RC&W Co. or "American") can be seen to have bogies built up from plate, with hornguides bolted on.

Edited January 9, 2022 by Compound2632

[magmouse]

I've been lurking on RMweb and this thread for some time now, so I feel it's time to 'break cover' and post. The contributions of members across the forum, and in this thread especially, have been very useful and indeed inspirational to me. So by way of a 'thank you', and to demonstrate that information shared here is not wasted, I thought it would appropriate here to share some pictures of my recently completed Slaters D299 in 7mm scale:

 

 

 

 

Although my plans are for a 1908 GWR layout set in a fictional port on the Dorset coast, the D299 has an important role in the wagon roster, bringing beer from Burton on Trent to the thirsty inhabitants of Netherport:

 

 

And a close-up of the contents (made using the Slaters barrels, and a lot of inspiration from @Tricky:

 

 

 

Best wishes - Nick.

 

Edited December 3, 2022 by magmouse
Edited to replace lost photo. And again...

[Adrian Stevenson]

Hi Nick, very nice work.

 

I look forwards to seeing more.

 

Cheers, Ade.

[Compound2632]

6 minutes ago, magmouse said:

I've been lurking on RMweb and this thread for some time now, so I feel it's time to 'break cover' and post. The contributions of members across the forum, and in this thread especially, have been very useful and indeed inspirational to me. So by way of a 'thank you', and to demonstrate that information shared here is not wasted, I thought it would appropriate here to share some pictures of my recently completed Slaters D299 in 7mm scale:

 

Nick, splendid work. I'm often tempted by the thought of 7 mm scale, perhaps for a small collection of representative or "type" models of each diagram, but have so far resisted.

 

One point on which I would dissent is rust. I'm not a believer in pre-grouping rust, at least not on a piece of rolling stock maintained and in service. Perhaps that's a debate to have...

[magmouse]

6 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

One point on which I would dissent is rust. I'm not a believer in pre-grouping rust, at least not on a piece of rolling stock maintained and in service. Perhaps that's a debate to have...

 

Thanks - and yes, I take your point about rust. The photos of the period are very hard to interpret in that regard - certainly some wagons got into both a dirty and rather battered state. The trouble is, I like what it does for the overall colour palette and to help make the detail pop. So my inner poet and my inner historian are constantly arm-wrestling for control of the weathering powders...