More Pre-Grouping Wagons in 4mm - the D299 appreciation thread.

[Miss Prism]

Great pics. Love the fancy Nissen-like huts with clerestories!

 

[Asterix2012]

I wonder what the little huts in the last picture are with the small hatch in them

[Compound2632]

6 minutes ago, Asterix2012 said:

I wonder what the little huts in the last picture are with the small hatch in them

 

I think they may be portable site huts - they have the company name painted on the side.

[Crimson Rambler]

Further to @Rail-Online and @Compound2632 - adrawing by F J Roche of a Midland weighting machine van. Hopefully it may be of interest but do please be aware Roche drawings (like Skinley's) were variable in their accuracy.

 

 

This example looks reasonable but........! For example it bears the same number as the Derby official photo also the end window is on the opposite side but only one of the latter is drawn.

 

 

Crimson Rambler

 

 

[Compound2632]

9 hours ago, Crimson Rambler said:

Further to @Rail-Online and @Compound2632 - adrawing by F J Roche of a Midland weighting machine van. Hopefully it may be of interest but do please be aware Roche drawings (like Skinley's) were variable in their accuracy.

 

"Variable in their accuracy"! In this case, about as much affinity to the truth as Donald Trump's property valuations.

 

The Midland Railway Study Centre has a copy of Drg. 3882, Item 88-D0765; I don't know if it's yet been scanned. However, from the diagram reproduced in Midland Wagons, the Roche drawing shows the vehicles as 2'0" too long, 2" too narrow and 8" too tall, with the wheelbase 1'6" too long. In fact the true dimensions are those of a standard 16'6" covered goods wagon, with the exception that the sides are 2" taller.  Moreover, from the Roche drawing you wouldn't know the other side was different.

Edited January 22, 2022 by Compound2632
sp.

[Dave Hunt]

In the context of accuracy, as far as I have been able to assess, the difference between Skinley and Roche drawings are that Skinley's are approximations to reality whereas Roche's are..........er, actually, thinking about it, they're pretty much the same really.

 

I was a bit dismayed today at the Derby Museum of Making Full Steam Ahead day that the HMRS stand had some Skinley drawings for sale. Historic? Mmm....

 

Dave

[Crimson Rambler]

It appears that in many (most?) cases neither Skinley nor Roche had access to official drawings other than (I suspect) weight diagrams in the case of locos or diagram books for wagons and carriages. Conversely for the remainder of their ranges they probably used nothing other than photos as the basis in conjunction with presumably one or two known dimensions. Hence the observation regarding the vehicle number on the drawing being the same as that in the photo.

 

For these reasons I agree with David Hunt regarding the accuracy of Skinley drawings and as an extension of this I do wonder about the HMRS's involvement with these drawings. Sure, preserve them as recording the situation in a period in railway modelling extant before their (and Roche's) appearance when modellers struggled to have any information, but following the OPC/British Rail arrangement together with the line societies, the NRM and even the HMRS itself, I think a strong case can be made for consigning both ranges to history.

 

Due to the style of presentation/draughtsmanship Roche drawings tend perhaps to inspire more confidence - in this respect they resemble Werrett's work - but a line drawn the wrong length or put in the wrong place is still rubbish no matter how neatly executed. 

 

Regarding the wheelbase discrepancy on the Roche drawing and with tongue firmly in cheek, substituting a wheelbase of 11ft - 6ins in place of 10ft is an error of similar magnitude to adopting 18.83mm in place of 16.5mm!

 

 

Crimson Rambler

 

 

 

[Compound2632]

As far as I can work out, "NO ADMITTANCE" is a further figment of Roche's imagination.

 

Knowledge advances, even as the prototype slides deeper into history.

[Compound2632]

I spent yesterday at the Museum of Making in Derby, assisting on the Midland Railway Society bookstall at the Museum's "Full Steam Ahead" event - subtitled "Revealing Railways Revealed", formally marking the opening of the Midland Railway Study Centre, the model railway, and the Assemblage area in which are displayed much of the Study Centre's collection of physical artefacts. Though all these have been open for several months, this was to make a public splash - and very effectively too, with plenty of visitors, both enthusiasts and families, all of whom seemed to enjoy most of it in different ways - though even the small children seemed a bit nonplussed by the mime artists. There were stalls representing a wide range of heritage railway groups based in Derbyshire, such as the Derbyshire Historic Buildings Trust, currently restoring the original Francis Thompson NMR station building at Wingfield; the Friends of Bennerley Viaduct, who have worked successfully for the restoration of that structure, built to carry the GNR's Derbyshire lines over the Erewash valley and now re-opened as a footpath and cycleway; and Peak Rail, along with Network Rail and East Midlands Trains. The HMRS had a stall and had also bought along a cameo layout built to the very highest scenic standards by pupils at Uckfield Community College, supported by the Uckfield Model Railway Club and the HMRS's Educational and Academic Liaison Officer, Keith Harcourt. 

 

I should think the museum will be very pleased with the day's footfall; certainly the Society's bookstall did very well. For my part I did help the second-hand section along a bit:

 

 

I've had an eye open for Richard Foster's book for a while - since passing it by in the second-hand bookshop in Sedbergh, only to find that by my next visit a year later they'd sold it... There is something very appealing about LNWR signalling, so often on the grand scale - one could have hours of fun bashing a pile of Ratio kits together to make some of the more complex brackets. 

 

There were several copies of albums from the late 60s / early 70s, which I recall fondly as early contributions to my enthusiasm for the Midland, but looking at them now, I find that I've got most of the photos, better reproduced and better captioned, in other more recent books. So I've passed them by, for all that they have nostalgia value. The Truman & Hunt album is a bit different. It was published in 1989 and contains many (to me) unfamiliar photos, superbly reproduced. There are some "officials" but plenty of the photos are from private collections - so I hope they're traceable. The captions are intelligent and informative and the authors were alive to the importance of the D299 population! (A couple of turn-of-the-century goods train photos have convinced me I have nowhere near enough of the little blighters.)

[Northroader]

Got any pictures of what the Model Railway looks like now, please?

[Compound2632]

34 minutes ago, Northroader said:

Got any pictures of what the Model Railway looks like now, please?

 

There don't yet seem to be any good up-to-date photos on the Museum's website yet. It certainly looks a good deal less barren than in this photo from earlier last year but there's still a good deal to do scenically. There's some talk of a backscene using printed banner technology. Some railway buildings are in place but there are more to be done. I suppose the most striking omission is signalling.

 

I have seen previews of virtual tours of Railways Revealed - one aimed at enthusiasts, one at families. I'm not sure these have yet been published - I'll post links when I can.

[Compound2632]

Truman & Hunt Plate 100: A northbound goods train near Ribblehead c. 1910 (I think north of the viaduct approaching Blea Moor) headed by long-term Carlisle resident No. 3002, old No. 1234, a Neilson B or 1142 Class of 1876. The first 15 or so wagons are D299, all but two or three of which have their brake on what in motoring terminology would be the nearside. That could just be a statistical fluke, but I do wonder if it was deliberate, for the convenience of the brakesman or guard and hence the safety of all when running down the 1:100 from Aisgill?

[Crimson Rambler]

I clean forgot about the Museum's 'Full Steam Ahead' event! But as things turned out I couldn't have gone anyway!

 

Quite possibly the way round the wagons are configured is for the reason you suggest @Compound2632. Perhaps for an intended 'pin brakes down' stop at Ais Gill before the descent. A working timetable might give some information on this.

 

What I wonder is why has No 3002 (ex1234) been given a passenger class B boiler?

Normally this sort of lackadaisical practice happened under the LMS and other such abandoned parties not the Midland - the more so as the engine appears to be lined red. It would have new frames in 1911 (Summerson), which together with the red colour suggests the photo is no later than 1910 and I suggest probably a year or two earlier. 

 

 

Crimson Rambler

 

 

[billbedford]

Would shunters go to the trouble of turning wagons because it made the guard's job a bit easier? If stories of the rivalries between guards and loco crew are anything to go by, I would say only with a good deal of inducement. 

[Compound2632]

7 minutes ago, Crimson Rambler said:

What I wonder is why has No 3002 (ex1234) been given a passenger class B boiler?

 

For the enlightenment of a mere goods wagon enthusiast, how can you tell that is a passenger B boiler rather than a goods B boiler? Wasn't the point that all  boilers had the same dimensions?

 

And didn't 2-4-0s start out (post-Kirtley boilers) with P boilers then get B boilers?

 

10 minutes ago, Crimson Rambler said:

I clean forgot about the Museum's 'Full Steam Ahead' event! But as things turned out I couldn't have gone anyway!

 

Ah but you were there in spirit as there was a discussion between a Society member (whose name I forget) and our Chair, about your chairs.

[Compound2632]

1 minute ago, billbedford said:

Would shunters go to the trouble of turning wagons because it made the guard's job a bit easier? If stories of the rivalries between guards and loco crew are anything to go by, I would say only with a good deal of inducement. 

 

And indeed how would the wagons be turned? Wagon turntables were not very common on the Midland, notably absent at large marshalling yards. The wagons appear to be empty, or, if loaded, the load is well below the rave and not of a nature to require sheeting. One possible interpretation is that these are all empties being worked to Carlisle, on the assumption that there was more southbound than northbound traffic, though one would think most southbound traffic would originate in Scotland and so be loaded in G&SW or NB wagons. Alternatively, they might be destined for one of the lime works in the Eden valley, in which case they might be locked into a circuits between the works and a regular customer. 

[jamie92208]

9 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

For the enlightenment of a mere goods wagon enthusiast, how can you tell that is a passenger B boiler rather than a goods B boiler? Wasn't the point that all  boilers had the same dimensions?

 

And didn't 2-4-0s start out (post-Kirtley boilers) with P boilers then get B boilers?

 

 

Ah but you were there in spirit as there was a discussion between a Society member (whose name I forget) and our Chair, about your chairs.

It does sound as if the Full Steam Ahead event was very good. I should have been in thecUK but probably  wouldn't have been able to attend.

 

Jamie

[Crimson Rambler]

In answer to @Compound2632 while B boilers were nominally all the same dimension-wise externally there were differences between the various batches, most notably in tube numbers and diameters. There were some mostly minor external differences such as in the radii of the flanged plates - throat and 'backhead'- stay disposition etc. Regarding the original observation, B boilers fitted to passenger engines (initally 4-4-0s but early in twentieth century 2-4-0s once P boiler construction stopped [1904 from memory]) that had external clack valves, had them fitted to the first ring whereas the equivalent goods engine boilers they were on the middle ring in line with the dome. Sometimes as here when goods engines were rebuilt with an ex-passenger boiler this necessitated an extension in the feed delivery pipes to suit the different clack valve position. Simples!

 

 

Crimson Rambler

 

 

[Compound2632]

5 minutes ago, Crimson Rambler said:

Regarding the original observation, B boilers fitted to passenger engines (initally 4-4-0s but early in twentieth century 2-4-0s once P boiler construction stopped [1904 from memory]) that had external clack valves, had them fitted to the first ring whereas the equivalent goods engine boilers they were on the middle ring in line with the dome. Sometimes as here when goods engines were rebuilt with an ex-passenger boiler this necessitated an extension in the feed delivery pipes to suit the different clack valve position.

 

Ah yes, I see: the clack valves in the "goods boiler" position would foul the driving wheels. 

 

However, a quick leaf through Essery & Jenkinson Vol. 4 reveals that many Johnson 0-6-0s were built with boilers without clack valves in either position - particularly the later ones, certainly Class M. For example, my favourite Aldridge photo again:

 

 

Which leads me on to my next question, if you will excuse my ignorance: what is the function of a clack valve, other than to go "clack"?

 

I've assumed it's a non-return valve for feeding water into the boiler? Later Midland and LMS period photos of these engines show an injector on the RHS of the smokebox, as on bigger engines, and no clack vales, so I presume the technology changed and later B boilers were made without them (or refurbished boilers had the plates with the mounting holes replaced)? On engines with clack valves, where are the ejectors? On the Class M etc. original boilers, what was the technology?

[jamie92208]

I may have got it wrong but as far as I know the clack valve was a non return valve situated where the water feed went into the boler. The Injectors were usually mounted at the end of the feed pipe away from the heat of the boiler, often under the cab as there were operating rods from the cab to the i je tor to control water and steam supply.  As I understand  it the devices on the side of the smokebox are either Ejectors that made a vacuum for the brakes or exhaust steam Injectors that reused exhaust steam

 

Jamie

[WFPettigrew]

30 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

Which leads me on to my next question, if you will excuse my ignorance: what is the function of a clack valve, other than to go "clack"?

 

I've assumed it's a non-return valve for feeding water into the boiler? Later Midland and LMS period photos of these engines show an injector on the RHS of the smokebox, as on bigger engines, and no clack vales, so I presume the technology changed and later B boilers were made without them (or refurbished boilers had the plates with the mounting holes replaced)? On engines with clack valves, where are the ejectors? On the Class M etc. original boilers, what was the technology?

To add to what Jamie said... 

The clack valve is the non-return valve to stop the boiler emptying itself via the injector at the other end of the feed pipe.  All injector set ups, both live steam and exhaust steam driven, need clacks for this reason - otherwise steam will simply pass through the injector "backwards" as it were, and exhaust to atmosphere out the water drain pipe.  In the old days the clacks tended to be on the side of the boiler, later it dawned that putting the incoming cold water into the top of the boiler was more efficient/less shocking to the boiler, and so top feeds became commonplace.  Often the feed pipes in later years were fed inside the boiler cladding, I am guessing to preheat the feed water rather than for aesthetic reasons, so would not be visble from the outside.

The device on the smokebox you mention sounds like the ejector, the device to draw air out of the brake pipes to create the vacuum. 

 

Hope this helps.

 

Neil

[Worsdell forever]

If clack valves are not visible on the side of the boiler they could have been mounted on the firebox backhead, don't know if the Midland did this.

[Compound2632]

12 minutes ago, WFPettigrew said:

The device on the smokebox you mention sounds like the ejector, the device to draw air out of the brake pipes to create the vacuum. 

 

Sorry, yes of course; my confusion. Injectors inject (water into boiler), ejectors eject (air from vacuum brake pipe)!

[Northroader]

On Victorian engines, the clack valves were placed one either side somewhere along the boiler barrel, or if not there, you would find them in the cab, on the backhead of the firebox, placed either side and above the fire hole door. They always came in pairs, because they got feed water into the boiler, and if one was sticking, you needed a fall back, or you were in deep trouble. An Injector was a crafty device for getting cold feed water at atmospheric pressure from the tender into pressurised water through the clack valve into the boiler. (Invented by a Frenchman, Gifford, in the 1860s, before then a pump driven off the motion, needing the loco to move, did the job.) Generally the injectors were placed low down near the cab, where they could be flooded with water from the tender, and also the functioning could be checked, (when they were turned on the overflow should stop)

The ejector worked on rather similar principles, but using air rather than water, and created the vacuum for the train brake. Normally placed just in front of the driver sticking out of the cab front, with an exhaust pipe from there into the smokebox.

[Compound2632]

6 minutes ago, Northroader said:

Invented by a Frenchman, Gifford, in the 1860s

 

Webb (or whoever chose the names) honoured him by naming Precursor (5'6" 2-4-0) No. 680 Giffard, but they'd first been used on Ramsbottom's Problem Class, from the tenth engine built, No. 165 Star of November 1860 - just a couple of years after Giffard's patent. Sticking with the topic of water, the Problem class were also the first to be fitted with tenders with water scoops, for use with Ramsbottom's newly-invented water troughs.