More Pre-Grouping Wagons in 4mm - the D299 appreciation thread.

[Compound2632]

On the Oxford AA3 brake van, I went digging for Miss Prism's fault list.

 

As far as I can make out, the main issue is the windows in the non-verandah end. If I have understood correctly, these are positioned one plank too low, apparently a consequence of following the diagrams in Atkins rather than photographs. Borrowing Atkins again is on my list of things to do. (And I've noted that the middle window isn't a window.)

[Compound2632]

I'm taking the liberty of re-posting here a link (originally posted by JohnGi on relaxinghobby's "How Good Are Drawings?" topic) to a fascinating article describing the construction of a wooden mineral wagon (RCH 1923 specification, one infers) from the point of view of a man on the shop floor: http://www.wrightsaerials.tv/annexe/wagon-shops.shtml. 

Edited July 30, 2018 by Compound2632

[Compound2632]

I see it may now be safe to mention that long-awaited volume we've not been mentioning...

[Spitfire2865]

Are they available direct from the society? I remember asking a while back but cant remember. 

[Jol Wilkinson]

None of the Wagons books, other than the Supplement published by the Society, are offered for sale on the Webbsite. Vols 1 and 2 were available at a special membership price when first published, but I don't know if that will happen with Vol. 3.

[Compound2632]

I’ve been rather slow to get stuck in to wagon modelling this summer but I’m taking a box of works-in-progress with me on holiday next week. Here’s one to keep the topic rolling: for the 1,000thpost, I quickly bodged an attempt at a D299 with end strapping, following on from a discussion of how common this variant was. Since then, I’ve bought a sheet of Archer resin rivet transfers. These are H0 scale 7/8” rivets, so ¾” in 4mm scale and probably a bit on the small side – I was advised to try S scale rivet transfers but these weren’t available. Anyway, I’ve had another go at the end strapping:

 

 

I’ve taken advantage of the spacing between the rows of rivets on the sheet being just right for the height of the planks, then the closer rows at the bottom being right for the top and bottom where there are two bolts through each plank.

 

The instructions say to allow 24 hours to set, so that’s where I am now, though I ought to get the buffers and brakes done in the meanwhile.

Edited September 4, 2022 by Compound2632
image re-inserted

[Compound2632]

I’m painfully aware that more than 24 hours have elapsed since I applied the Archers rivets to my D299… There is some modelling going on but not much reportable yet; the new school term is rapidly approaching too. The usual antidote to not enough modelling is spending money, in this case with The Titfield Thunderbolt bookshop, which has once again provided a prompt service.

 

With trumpets and drums, we herald the arrival of the long awaited

 

 

LNWR Wagons Vol. 3! And well worth the wait it is too – Wild Swan’s design and production standards remain as high as they’ve always been and, on a first look through, the quality of research seems as thorough as ever from the LNWR Society authors. The book includes a tribute to Jim Richards – the giant upon whose shoulders the authors stand.

 

The majority of LNW wagons I’ve built are covered by this volume, including the D16 goods brake van, D53 and D54 coal wagons, D62 ballast wagon, and D64 loco coal wagon, so it was with some trepidation that I turned to the relevant pages. It’s still as clear as mud to me whether the verandah end windows of the D16 brakes were glazed, though those of the D17A brakes clearly were – D17 also ambiguous. The biggest revelation is the cast iron divisional letters on the ends of the D62 ballast wagons…

 

 

… although a careful re-reading of p. 141 of Talbot et al., LNWR Liveries (HMRS, 1985) revealed that I should have known!

 

This volume has found its place on the Shelf of Honour, reserved for my first division of railway reference books:

 

 

H.N. Twells and T.W. Bourne, A Pictorial Record of LMS Road Vehicles (OPC, 1983) is the unfortunate volume that has slipped down to the second division, joining books on private owner wagons, Hull & Barnsley locomotives, architecture, and specific routes and locations.

 

I’m also enjoying LMS Review No. 3, especially LMS van variants and More LMS vans… Homer nods: on p.48, the article on brake vans is illustrated by a photo of an engine and brake at Darley Dale. The brake is said to be ex-Midland but anyone in possession of LNWR Wagons Vol. 3 will immediately spot that it’s an ex-LNW brake to D17A!

 

There’s a lavishly-illustrated and entertaining article about family holidays in camping coaches in the Lake District, which doesn’t really say very much about the coaches themselves – not even identifying the carriage in the colour photo on p. 23 as having started life as a M&GSW or M&NB Joint Stock D468 50ft corridor composite. Lacy & Dow, Midland Railway Carriages Vol. 2 (WSP, 1986) say that a couple of ex-M&GSW 50ft corridor thirds were converted to camping coaches but are silent on composites.

 

Edited September 4, 2022 by Compound2632
Images re-inserted

[Mikkel]

That's a nice collection of books in your first division Stephen. I expect all the GWR books are on the Premier League shelf then?     

 

I like those cast iron letters, but why would they go to the trouble I wonder?

[Compound2632]

That's a nice collection of books in your first division Stephen. I expect all the GWR books are on the Premier League shelf then?     

 

Until my very recent purchase of the William Dean book, I didn't actually own any purely Great Western books! I do have the one-volume edition of Atkins on loan at the moment.

[Spitfire2865]

Im quite jealous youve got your Vol 3 already.

Working through a member at the society to secure a copy for myself. Hopefully it doesnt fall through.

 

And of those vans at Darley Dale, I believe I know of that photo, which was key for building my now quite poor 4mm model.

[Compound2632]

I'm afraid I've still not much modelling to report - August taken up with family holidays and September with start-of-term for most of the family. I'm hoping things will settle down once No. 1 Son has been deposited at university. I have been doing some reading as well as book-buying; I have to thank John Miles for drawing my attention to a recent publication: Bob Yate, The Midland Railway route from Wolverhampton, Locomotion Papers No. 242 (Oakwood Press, 2018). This is, I think, the author's eighth book in the Oakwood series; he's covered North Western and Great Western as well as Midland lines in the west Midlands. I have his volume on the Redditch and Evesham route - the "Gloucester Loop". This latest book has much the same strengths and weaknesses - his primary sources are official documents &c. held at Kew and at county record offices and libraries, so his story of the building of these lines is very much from a railway company point of view. Amongst secondary sources, he cites the websites of the Local History Societies of Wolverhampton and Walsall but he does not appear to have attempted to engage with the societies themselves to see if they had any relevant material - although it may simply be that they didn't. I should declare an interest here: my father has been for many years a member of the Sutton Coldfield Local History Research Group and has notes from thirty years ago when he did some research on the relations between the Sutton Coldfield authorities and the railway companies - the building of the line through Sutton Park being very controversial. My father also researched the early proposals leading up to the building of the LNWR branch from Aston to Sutton Coldfield, opened in 1862 [R.M. Lea, Steaming up to Sutton (Westwood Press, 1984)] - which have considerable bearing on the Midland's later involvement. I would say that it's a weakness of Mr Yate's style of research that he does not discuss this pre-history or engage with the local history of the area through which the line passes; in other words, this is railway history without sufficient context. Also, he is primarily interested in the Staffordshire end of the line; the Warwickshire end, from Streetley through Sutton Coldfield to Water Orton and Castle Bromwich, is given only cursory treatment. 

 

The chapter on the working history of the line is, again, dependent on official documents - timetables and traffic returns. Locomotives and rolling stock receive very slight attention. Based the Midland C&W Committee's 1875 decision to follow T.G. Clayton's advice to order only 4-wheeled or bogie carriages, he presumes that bogie carriages were the order of the day henceforward. It would have been easy enough to refer to R.E. Lacy and G. Dow, Midland Railway Carriages Vols. 1 & 2 (Wild Swan, 1986) to understand that the situation was rather more complicated than this. Indeed, five-coach sets of close-coupled 6-wheelers were built specifically for the Birmingham, Walsall and Wolverhampton services in 1882 and replaced by sets of Bain's 48ft bogie carriages in 1908 - the latter appearing in several photographs in the book. I'm sure that a signalling enthusiast would want to point to published information that could supplement some of the generalisations made on that topic.

 

Most of the photographs illustrating the line's infrastructure date, understandably, from the 1950s or earlier. There are a few rather nice pre-Grouping views; my favourite being of Aldridge station, showing the Walsall Wood branch train at the up platform. This is made up of a pair of Clayton's bogie carriages from the 1880s - a 43' third brake to D502 and, I think, a 40' brake composite to D528. My delvings into the carriage marshalling instructions for 1922 leads me to suspect that the same carriages were still in use then - there were two sets, exchanged on Monday mornings. The engine is stated to be a 1102 Class 0-6-0T - the photo isn't quite sharp enough to be confident of distinguishing it from a closed-cab example of the 1377 Class but I think this is right. The 1102 Class are most strongly associated with the Hereford - Swansea line but, according to Summerson, Midland Railway Locomotives Vol. 3 (Irwell Press, 2002), Nos. 1129-1131 were at Saltley from 1892 to 1902, with 1129 and 1131 staying there to the grouping though 1130 had moved away to join its classmates at Upper Bank by 1908. Saltley had surprisingly few of the 1377 and 1121 Class 0-6-0Ts and certainly none with closed cabs - 1100 appears in a probably 1890s view of Birmingham Central Goods and another example in a probably c. 1908-10-ish view of Lawley Street Goods; Summerson lists 1090, 1095, 1097-1100 at Saltley in 1889-1902. Goods yards would be their natural habitat - they might just have got out onto the main line for short trip jobs. I suspect that the small stud of 1102 Class engines with their closed cabs - suitable for passenger working - may have been allocated specifically for the Walsall Wood branch. Nos 1135-8 were originally at Keighley for similar branch work until displaced by closed-cab members of the 1377 Class. Yate's Aldridge photo seems unlikely to be quite as late as 1910 as the engine still has its Johnson smokebox door and brass numerals. Anyway, I'm now feeling I have an excuse for a 1102 Class engine, with a choice of viable numbers!

 

Mr Yate's delving into the working timetables does bring me one other item of joy: the Great Western not only had running powers over the Midland line between Wolverhampton and Walsall but indeed exercised them from 1875 until 1939, with up to two daily goods workings in each direction. I had thought I was stretching it a bit postulating Great Western goods workings north of their Birmingham-Wolverhampton line but now I can justify my red wagons behind a Wolverhampton Dean Goods!

Edited September 16, 2018 by Compound2632

[Penlan]

..... appears in a probably 1890s view of Birmingham Central Goods and another example in a probably c. 1908-10-ish view of Lawley Street Goods; .

The two references, bring up the same photo, at the moment.

[Lecorbusier]

I have an interesting question about the following photo.

 

 

Others have raised concerns about the uniformity of the train? My shout was that it was a load of empty's being returned to a single source given the relatively short length of the train. The date I think is relatively early as the loco is still sporting the johnson smoke box door and handrail profile - potentially pre war. The wagons given their height in relation to the cab appear to be D299s? Given the vast numbers produced and the greater uniformity of stock at this time is the photo so very odd? Would such a train have been the subject of a staged photo?

 

Interested if anyone has any thoughts.

[sp1]

I have an interesting question about the following photo.

 

DSC_0204.jpg

 

Others have raised concerns about the uniformity of the train? My shout was that it was a load of empty's being returned to a single source given the relatively short length of the train. The date I think is relatively early as the loco is still sporting the johnson smoke box door and handrail profile - potentially pre war. The wagons given their height in relation to the cab appear to be D299s? Given the vast numbers produced and the greater uniformity of stock at this time is the photo so very odd? Would such a train have been the subject of a staged photo?

 

Interested if anyone has any thoughts.

Is it a trick of the light or do some of those sleeper ends at the bottom of the picture appear to be pointed?

[billbedford]

It looks to me like these wagons are loaded with timber, and the deals are overlapping one end of the wagons. With such loads, it would probably be a good idea to match the height of the wagons if at all possible.

 

Lea Bridge is on the route that goods would take from various wharves on the Thames to the Midland around St Pancras.

[Andy Hayter]

Is it a trick of the light or do some of those sleeper ends at the bottom of the picture appear to be pointed?

 

I think it is a trick on the eyes.  If you look between the rails where the ends of the sleepers give an impression of being pointed, you will see it has been ballasted to the top of the sleepers.  I suspect what we are seeing is some of that ballast outside the running rails forming wedges from the tip of one sleeper to the chair of the next, giving an impression of the wood being pointed.

[Mikkel]

I'm afraid I've still not much modelling to report - August taken up with family holidays and September with start-of-term for most of the family. I'm hoping things will settle down once No. 1 Son has been deposited at university. I have been doing some reading as well as book-buying; I have to thank John Miles for drawing my attention to a recent publication: Bob Yate, The Midland Railway route from Wolverhampton, Locomotion Papers No. 242 (Oakwood Press, 2018). This is, I think, the author's eighth book in the Oakwood series; he's covered North Western and Great Western as well as Midland lines in the west Midlands. I have his volume on the Redditch and Evesham route - the "Gloucester Loop". This latest book has much the same strengths and weaknesses - his primary sources are official documents &c. held at Kew and at county record offices and libraries, so his story of the building of these lines is very much from a railway company point of view. Amongst secondary sources, he cites the websites of the Local History Societies of Wolverhampton and Walsall but he does not appear to have attempted to engage with the societies themselves to see if they had any relevant material - although it may simply be that they didn't. I should declare an interest here: my father has been for many years a member of the Sutton Coldfield Local History Research Group and has notes from thirty years ago when he did some research on the relations between the Sutton Coldfield authorities and the railway companies - the building of the line through Sutton Park being very controversial. My father also researched the early proposals leading up to the building of the LNWR branch from Aston to Sutton Coldfield, opened in 1862 [R.M. Lea, Steaming up to Sutton (Westwood Press, 1984)] - which have considerable bearing on the Midland's later involvement. I would say that it's a weakness of Mr Yate's style of research that he does not discuss this pre-history or engage with the local history of the area through which the line passes; in other words, this is railway history without sufficient context. Also, he is primarily interested in the Staffordshire end of the line; the Warwickshire end, from Streetley through Sutton Coldfield to Water Orton and Castle Bromwich, is given only cursory treatment. 

 

The chapter on the working history of the line is, again, dependent on official documents - timetables and traffic returns. Locomotives and rolling stock receive very slight attention. Based the Midland C&W Committee's 1875 decision to follow T.G. Clayton's advice to order only 4-wheeled or bogie carriages, he presumes that bogie carriages were the order of the day henceforward. It would have been easy enough to refer to R.E. Lacy and G. Dow, Midland Railway Carriages Vols. 1 & 2 (Wild Swan, 1986) to understand that the situation was rather more complicated than this. Indeed, five-coach sets of close-coupled 6-wheelers were built specifically for the Birmingham, Walsall and Wolverhampton services in 1882 and replaced by sets of Bain's 48ft bogie carriages in 1908 - the latter appearing in several photographs in the book. I'm sure that a signalling enthusiast would want to point to published information that could supplement some of the generalisations made on that topic.

 

Most of the photographs illustrating the line's infrastructure date, understandably, from the 1950s or earlier. There are a few rather nice pre-Grouping views; my favourite being of Aldridge station, showing the Walsall Wood branch train at the up platform. This is made up of a pair of Clayton's bogie carriages from the 1880s - a 43' third brake to D502 and, I think, a 40' brake composite to D528. My delvings into the carriage marshalling instructions for 1922 leads me to suspect that the same carriages were still in use then - there were two sets, exchanged on Monday mornings. The engine is stated to be a 1102 Class 0-6-0T - the photo isn't quite sharp enough to be confident of distinguishing it from a closed-cab example of the 1377 Class but I think this is right. The 1102 Class are most strongly associated with the Hereford - Swansea line but, according to Summerson, Midland Railway Locomotives Vol. 3 (Irwell Press, 2002), Nos. 1129-1131 were at Saltley from 1892 to 1902, with 1129 and 1131 staying there to the grouping though 1130 had moved away to join its classmates at Upper Bank by 1908. Saltley had surprisingly few of the 1377 and 1121 Class 0-6-0Ts and certainly none with closed cabs - 1100 appears in a probably 1890s view of Birmingham Central Goods and another example in a probably c. 1908-10-ish view of Lawley Street Goods; Summerson lists 1090, 1095, 1097-1100 at Saltley in 1889-1902. Goods yards would be their natural habitat - they might just have got out onto the main line for short trip jobs. I suspect that the small stud of 1102 Class engines with their closed cabs - suitable for passenger working - may have been allocated specifically for the Walsall Wood branch. Nos 1135-8 were originally at Keighley for similar branch work until displaced by closed-cab members of the 1377 Class. Yate's Aldridge photo seems unlikely to be quite as late as 1910 as the engine still has its Johnson smokebox door and brass numerals. Anyway, I'm now feeling I have an excuse for a 1102 Class engine, with a choice of viable numbers!

 

Mr Yate's delving into the working timetables does bring me one other item of joy: the Great Western not only had running powers over the Midland line between Wolverhampton and Walsall but indeed exercised them from 1875 until 1939, with up to two daily goods workings in each direction. I had thought I was stretching it a bit postulating Great Western goods workings north of their Birmingham-Wolverhampton line but now I can justify my red wagons behind a Wolverhampton Dean Goods!

 

Thanks for that review Stephen. I like your point - and your father's, it seems - about the need to see the developments not only from the rwy company side, but in local context. Many line histories seem to pass quickly over this. I suppose it increases the work load for the author (and number of pages for the publisher), but it does add a lot to our insight. Some of the best GWRJ articles provide details on the local traders who used a given station. That's just a beginning of course, but it immediately anchors the station and makes it distinct and more interesting to me. 

[Northroader]

Here’s a photo, the original being in Wolverhampton library, of Oxley sidings, on the GWR line heading northwest from the Wolves, with an outside frame 060 doing just that. Highly evocative, with some tantalising items in view. (1890s??) Besides the goods train, there’s some interesting coaches parked at the back, some looking as if they might be broad gauge conversions. My guess is an excursion set held in reserve, as there were coach sidings nearer Low Level. For the purposes of this post, the centre of interest is the set of wagons parked in front of them. It’s as much guessing as clearly defined detail, but the first two look like CRC (Cannock Rugeley) and West Cannock? They look empty, so I presume returns from Shropshire consumers going back for a refill. Linked to you book review, if the GWR had running powers to Walsall, this could be ready for a working that way. Dean Goods? It would be in the range of a saddle tank.

[Lecorbusier]

It looks to me like these wagons are loaded with timber, and the deals are overlapping one end of the wagons. With such loads, it would probably be a good idea to match the height of the wagons if at all possible.

 

Lea Bridge is on the route that goods would take from various wharves on the Thames to the Midland around St Pancras.

Do you happen to know what the head code might signify ... it looks to me like a single lamp in position C or D depending on the date of the photo. It is not a code I can find in Midland Style.

[Compound2632]

The two references, bring up the same photo, at the moment.

 

Thanks for spotting that - link corrected. A modelling point: looking at another enlargement from the same Lawley Street photo, I note how many of the vans have a full-length rainstrip - from the selection of photos in Midland Wagons, I'd formed the impression that only fruit vans did, ordinary vans having just a rainstrip over the door opening. But it looks like there's a variety of both. 

 

It's interesting to compare 1890s and pre or c. 1910 scenes like these, where the vast majority of wagons are Midland, with a 1922 scene - post-pooling, anything goes, though still quite a few "home" Midland wagons.

 

Going back to the photo of 1100 at Central Goods, note the high sheeted loads and the high proportion of D299 wagons with the extra centre end strapping.

[Compound2632]

I have an interesting question about the following photo.

 

DSC_0204.jpg

 

Others have raised concerns about the uniformity of the train? My shout was that it was a load of empty's being returned to a single source given the relatively short length of the train. The date I think is relatively early as the loco is still sporting the johnson smoke box door and handrail profile - potentially pre war. The wagons given their height in relation to the cab appear to be D299s? Given the vast numbers produced and the greater uniformity of stock at this time is the photo so very odd? Would such a train have been the subject of a staged photo?

 

Interested if anyone has any thoughts.

 

I'm sure I've seen a similar but different photo - at a less acute angle - on the Tottenham & Hampstead Junction line, I think, also showing a 1377 Class 0-6-0T at the head of a uniform train of D299s, laden in that case with coal. Sorry can't locate it at the moment. In the London area, these tank engines were clearly used for goods trains over relatively long distances - to GER coal depots as well as the docks, though not south of the river via as none were condensing - the Met didn't like long rigid-wheelbase engines for many years so the 1532 Class 0-4-4Ts had to handle the traffic until someone changed their mind and the big 2441 Class condensing 0-6-0Ts were allowed. I don't think the photo's staged; if the load is sawn timber as Bill suggests rather than coal, then given that 50% of Midland wagons were D299, it's hardly surprising to get a uniform rake. If it's coal, then photos taken at Toton, Cricklewood or Washwood Heath show unifom lines of D299 wagons laden with coal evidently from the same colliery (same sized lumps stacked in the same way) among the lines of PO wagons. I don't think either this photo or the one I'm thinking of were posed.

 

In another thread you raised the question of whether one of these open-cab 0-6-0Ts could be seen out on the road at Monsal Dale. I'm afraid my gut feeling is, no. They're creatures of goods yards and short trips - London perhaps being an exception. The photos of 1423 and 1426 in the Rowsley book were taken in Rowsley sidings. I suppose you could have one on a ballast train - the open cab was favoured in goods yards for the excellent visibility, which I would think would be important for p/way work too. 

[Compound2632]

Here’s a photo, the original being in Wolverhampton library, of Oxley sidings, on the GWR line heading northwest from the Wolves, with an outside frame 060 doing just that. Highly evocative, with some tantalising items in view. (1890s??) Besides the goods train, there’s some interesting coaches parked at the back, some looking as if they might be broad gauge conversions. My guess is an excursion set held in reserve, as there were coach sidings nearer Low Level. For the purposes of this post, the centre of interest is the set of wagons parked in front of them. It’s as much guessing as clearly defined detail, but the first two look like CRC (Cannock Rugeley) and West Cannock? They look empty, so I presume returns from Shropshire consumers going back for a refill. Linked to you book review, if the GWR had running powers to Walsall, this could be ready for a working that way. Dean Goods? It would be in the range of a saddle tank.

 

 

Superb. The same photo is in P.B. Whitehouse, Pre-Grouping in the West Midlands (OPC, 1984) Plate 119, though yours is a smidgeon sharper. Whitehouse says 1900 but I'm with you in thinking it must be a bit earlier. I agree on CRC but for West Cannock I think one needs they eye of faith! - though I'm happy to accept the premise that they're waiting to work home by Great Western train. They're all dumb-buffered, BTW. 

 

Yate does say that the engines used on Great Western trains to Walsall were "undoubtedly the Dean and Churchward 0-6-0STs, and possibly the pannier tank variants" - my italics; all rather circumstantial. He says the enginemen at Walsall called them "Fattie Greenies" which sounds like good evidence. Was not the nineteenth-century Great Western given to using saddle tanks on even quite long distance goods workings? I suppose they were replaced on such duties by the Armstrong and Dean Goods classes? I wouldn't mind an 850 Class engine but for the moment we're supposing that (a) on the day, none was available and Dean Goods No. 2390 had to be substituted and also (b) in my "stretched" geography (that extra fold in the map of which Edwardian speaks), the Great Western running powers are exercised over a greater distance eastwards.

Edited September 16, 2018 by Compound2632

[Lecorbusier]

In another thread you raised the question of whether one of these open-cab 0-6-0Ts could be seen out on the road at Monsal Dale. I'm afraid my gut feeling is, no. They're creatures of goods yards and short trips - London perhaps being an exception. The photos of 1423 and 1426 in the Rowsley book were taken in Rowsley sidings. I suppose you could have one on a ballast train - the open cab was favoured in goods yards for the excellent visibility, which I would think would be important for p/way work too. 

I accept that it wouldn't be likely to be a standard timetabled working, but apart from my wish to run one through Monsal Dale and so looking for an excuse, the presence of one shunting at Bakewell shows that they did work the line .... so I might be able to cobble together a one off justification.

 

[billbedford]

Do you happen to know what the head code might signify ... it looks to me like a single lamp in position C or D depending on the date of the photo. It is not a code I can find in Midland Style.

 

 

It's most likely a GER code, and since GER codes were for routeing,  probably for a left turn at South Tottenham.

[billbedford]

Sorry can't locate it at the moment. In the London area, these tank engines were clearly used for goods trains over relatively long distances - to GER coal depots as well as the docks, 

 

 

Did the Midland actually work through to the docks at Poplar or pick up their trains at Temple Mills?

Edited September 16, 2018 by billbedford