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Compound2632

More Pre-Grouping Wagons in 4mm - the D299 appreciation thread.

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Can’t put my hand on it right now, but it sticks in my mind there’s a photo of Starcross station with a broad gauge 4-4-0ST on a passenger train, (check out the carriages, too,Annie) and there’s a wagon nearby with a “dragons wing” sheet.

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13 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

Ah, now this is where Mr Rankin of the GSWRA and I got our wires crossed. He understood me to mean a mineral wagon such as the model shown, and having got my email only a few minutes before leaving the Kilmarnock archive, came away with information about these. They have the oddity that, because of the ironwork of the cupboard doors, the & S are smaller than the G W, as can clearly be seen in this HMRS photo. This lettering style is provided for on the HMRS pre-grouping Scottish transfer sheet.

 

Mine is a merchandise wagon with a drop flap door; I patiently await further information on these.

 

There's a photo of a mineral in the NERA archive (sorry, can't post it here) showing all letters of one size, probably the larger as the '& S' is all but touching the hinges top and bottom. Another difference is the bodywork ironwork is grey.

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Posted (edited)
17 minutes ago, Worsdell forever said:

 

There's a photo of a mineral in the NERA archive (sorry, can't post it here) showing all letters of one size, probably the larger as the '& S' is all but touching the hinges top and bottom. Another difference is the bodywork ironwork is grey.

 

That might be this one in the HMRS collection, which is dated 1913, or a similar photo. Date may be relevant. The HMRS collection includes a number of photos of G&SW wagons from 1986-99, all of which have black ironwork. Admittedly these are official ex-works photos but Alan @Buhar did PM me an undated photo of a mineral wagon fairly newly painted but in traffic with black ironwork. Most of those HMRS photos show mineral wagons with the two-size lettering but there are a couple of 3-plank dropside wagons with lettering that is about two planks high - 14". But as yet no photo of a high-sided wagon - or box wagon as the Scottish companies seem to have called them.

 

On reflection, it may have been my failure to include that keyword "box" in my correspondence with Mr Rankin that led to his assumption that I was asking about the mineral wagons.

Edited by Compound2632

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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

That's because the time in service for sheets was strictly controlled; the date in white is the date at which the sheet was due back at sheet stores for maintenance; there ought somewhere on the sheet be a date in red (invisible in photos) which is the date on which the sheet was sent into traffic. I don't know what this time-in-service interval was on the Great Western but I believe around 15 - 18 months was typical - I haven't been back to that Essery Midland Record article to check. Anyway, this has the convenient outcome that for my c. 1902/3 period, it seems that both designs would have been current.

 

I've now re-read the article: R.J. Essery, Sheets, Ropes and SacksMidland Record No. 3 (Wild Swan, 1995) pp. 41-58. To my annoyance, I've discovered that I had misremembered: according to LMS period instructions and an article in the LMS Magazine of 1925, the red date was the date for return to sheet stores while the white date is the date of manufacture or last repair.

 

There is mixed information on the length of time between these two dates. Essery quotes W.M. Ackworth, The Railways of England (John Murray, 1900), writing of the Midland's Sheet Stores (at Sheet Stores Junction, of course): "Some ten thousand are turned out every year; and nine times that number come back annually to be repaired and redressed, though there are repairing establishments at Birmingham, Leeds and St Pancras as well." This implies that the total life of a sheet was at least ten repair cycles. He also says that a sheet spent 6 weeks to two months hanging up to dry after re-dressing (with a mixture of boiled oil and vegetable or lamp black) before going into traffic. The 1925 LMS Magazine article says "the average life of a wagon sheet is about five years" - now is that total life, or time between refurbishments? There is a photo of sheeted mineral wagons, on the nearest, both dates can be read: 5/36 and 11/40 - implying 4.5 years. If that is correct, and was true in 1900 (the methods of making and repairing sheets don't seem to have changed) then the total life of a sheet could be pushing 50 years...

 

This commercial wagon sheet gives a much shorter time of just 9 months but upon what evidence I do not know:

 

1589718924_LNWwagonsheet.JPG.9048fa7881e64e8ef430b29e78a6bbbb.JPG

 

This leads to a revision of my views on the changeover in Great Western wagon sheet markings. If @Ian Smith has photographic evidence for his later style sheet dated 10/03, that gives a terminus post quem for the changeover; the c. 1905 Vastern Road photo (and a companion photo of Kings Meadow yard) show the later style only, as far as I can see - at least, there are no definite examples of the earlier style. On the other hand, the photo of 12325 shows that the earlier style was current c. 1902/3. (Date to traffic of this wagon would be useful!) So I think one might argue that the overlap period between the two styles might be a bit more elastic but still cover my c. 1902/3 period!

 

Also, Essery's artcle has the photo of sandon Docks I was hunting for re. an earlier discussion of sheet pooling during the Great War and subsequently. Dated 27 July 1922, this shows a GE wagon with a GN sheet, a GN wagon with a Midland sheet, a Midland wagon with a LSW sheet, and a GW wagon with a GN sheet. For balance, there are also a couple of GW wagons with GW sheets, and a couple of Midland wagons with Midland sheets. 

Edited by Compound2632
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For info, the wagon sheets that I drew up are my interpretation of what I could see in photographs (I later purchased a 2009 version of “Great Western Way” from the HMRS which has appendix 13 dedicated to wagon sheets covering both broad and narrow gauge periods).

The “1900” sheet is a copy of that covering open 12325 (cast plates), the “1903” sheet is a copy of the sheet covering open 74778.

When each version actually entered or lasted in traffic I don’t know. What I tried to do was provide the extra numerical digits outside the sheet to allow different numbers to be copied and pasted to provide different sheets.

Hope that helps,

Ian

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1 hour ago, Ian Smith said:

(I later purchased a 2009 version of “Great Western Way” from the HMRS which has appendix 13 dedicated to wagon sheets covering both broad and narrow gauge periods).

My copy of Great Western Way was published in 1978 so it lacks appendix 13 (XIII).  So close but yet so far.  At least I now know where the information I'm seeking might be found.

 

3 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

There is mixed information on the length of time between these two dates. Essery quotes W.M. Ackworth, The Railways of England (John Murray, 1900), writing of the Midland's Sheet Stores (at Sheet Stores Junction, of course): "Some ten thousand are turned out every year; and nine times that number come back annually to be repaired and redressed, though there are repairing establishments at Birmingham, Leeds and St Pancras as well." This implies that the total life of a sheet was at least ten repair cycles. He also says that a sheet spent 6 weeks to two months hanging up to dry after re-dressing (with a mixture of boiled oil and vegetable or lamp black) before going into traffic. The 1925 LMS Magazine article says "the average life of a wagon sheet is about five years" - now is that total life, or time between refurbishments? There is a photo of sheeted mineral wagons, on the nearest, both dates can be read: 5/36 and 11/40 - implying 4.5 years. If that is correct, and was true in 1900 (the methods of making and repairing sheets don't seem to have changed) then the total life of a sheet could be pushing 50 years...

That is absolutely fascinating information Stephen.  (Yes i know I don't get out much).

I'm sure that's a part of the repair and maintenance cycles of the steam era railways that many modellers wouldn't give any thought to. 

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5 hours ago, Northroader said:

Can’t put my hand on it right now, but it sticks in my mind there’s a photo of Starcross station with a broad gauge 4-4-0ST on a passenger train, (check out the carriages, too,Annie) and there’s a wagon nearby with a “dragons wing” sheet.

The worst thing about about trying to do any on-line research is that typing 'GWR' into a Goggle search box immediately brings up a load of nonsense about some pack of modern ne'er-do-wells that stole the name and are now running what they describe in moments of excitement as a railway.

 

Starcross does look to be an interesting station though and I should try to find out more about.

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You’ve got a lovely way with words, Annie. Starcross is quite an interesting place, a small station hard against the Exe estuary, you can get a ferry across to Exmouth, there’s part of the old Atmospheric pumping station preserved there, they did have a small museum which I think has folded, very congested main road through the place, two pubs, and the climate is mild enough to let echiums grow wild by the railway. Oops, sorry, put this on the tourist board site.

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Posted (edited)

I like words and the pictures I can paint with them.  Comes from my failed attempt to become a published author some years ago.

 

I am trying my best to take no notice of the Atmospheric Railway part of Starcross's history Mr Northroader, - especially since I know where to obtain a set of digital models to build such a railway.

With its location Starcross would certainly make an interesting model, but with trying to get my 1880s Cornwall Railway layout under way again I'm doing my best not to go rushing off into building anything else.

 

Edited by Annie
fumble brain
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3 hours ago, Annie said:

My copy of Great Western Way was published in 1978 so it lacks appendix 13 (XIII).  So close but yet so far.  At least I now know where the information I'm seeking might be found.

I have been able to find a good second hand copy of the revised edition of 'Great Western Way' so hopefully once it arrives the mysteries of 19th century GWR wagon sheets shall be revealed.

 

When I was taught to read in primary school nobody warned me about the risks of descending into poverty due to buying too many books.

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12 minutes ago, Annie said:

I have been able to find a good second hand copy of the revised edition of 'Great Western Way'

 

I was beginning to weaken too - it seems the HMRS have stock at £22 but no immediate likelihood of being able to dispatch - presumably their stock is all Covid-bound at Butterley.

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3 hours ago, Annie said:

I like words and the pictures I can paint with them.  Comes from my failed attempt to become a published author some years ago.

For me, that comes from my failed art 'O' level.

(And grade D at that, so only just a fail. Described by Mr. Meredith, the wargaming art teacher, as the best achievement against natural talent in his career!)

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1 hour ago, Compound2632 said:

 

I was beginning to weaken too - it seems the HMRS have stock at £22 but no immediate likelihood of being able to dispatch - presumably their stock is all Covid-bound at Butterley.

I saw that Stephen, but decided that buying from them was a complete non starter.  The nice condition

second hand copy was cheaper, but of course postage to New Zealand stacked up the price.

 

17 minutes ago, Regularity said:

For me, that comes from my failed art 'O' level.

(And grade D at that, so only just a fail. Described by Mr. Meredith, the wargaming art teacher, as the best achievement against natural talent in his career!)

I was trying to get published before the e-book era so my manuscript was endlessly pecked to death by being moulded to what a publisher would accept.  In the end after a solid year of this I decided I wanted my life back and gave up.

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17 hours ago, Annie said:

When I was taught to read in primary school nobody warned me about the risks of descending into poverty due to buying too many books.

But did they not say "Your life will be enriched by reading......." :jester: etc., etc., 

 

Reading a book.jpg

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4 hours ago, Penlan said:

But did they not say "Your life will be enriched by reading......." :jester: etc., etc., 

Well it didn't take me long to discover that books had the best moving pictures Penlan.

And speaking of pictures that's a really lovely one you've found.  Can't be me though since I've always been a skinny plain little thing.

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On 04/08/2020 at 21:30, Regularity said:

For me, that comes from my failed art 'O' level.

(And grade D at that, so only just a fail. Described by Mr. Meredith, the wargaming art teacher, as the best achievement against natural talent in his career!)

 

In my day a D grade at O level was a pass, as was an E. F and below were the fails, appropriately enough.

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Another one for the wagon Midland Railway number collectors, no date or location available but post 1936, note the disc wheels.  Too late a build for nearly all of you though!

(Another corner of a neg) Cheers Tony

 

MR brake van.jpg

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Posted (edited)

@Rail-Online, good spot! D393 of course (fairly sure it's not a vac braked D394). It pre-dates Lot 815 of 1912, as that and subsequent lots had self-contained buffers. It also has the framing visible along the bottom of the body - the later style was for the vertical boarding to be carried right down to the bottom edge. I'm not sure when that change happened but all the photos in Midland Wagons of vans with self-contained buffers have the later style of boarding and all those with leaf-spring buffers have the earlier style, as in this photo. Also, shackles to the springs rather than J-hangers - the latter came in before the self-contained buffers. Oil axleboxes are presumably replacements for the original grease boxes; likewise, replacement wheels. It could quite possibly date back to the 1880s.

Edited by Compound2632
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Thanks - I knew you would find something interesting about it!  I was not aware of the side planking differences.......

 

Cheers Tony

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A long, long, time ago....  we were entertained by a movie taken on the L&NWR main line, in the London area, circa late Victorian / early Edwardian eras and amongst the wagons that Stephen identified were examples for Drake and Mount (examples which later in the topic appeared as 4mm scale models).  Watching repeats of Portillo's Great British Train Journeys I noted a movie sequence of a SR freight train...  and think that there is something of interest in that train.

 

Whilst in Great Yarmouth (Series 3, episode 1), Michael is talking to a lady about the town speciality of body snatching.  The lady tells Michael about how the GER assisted the movement of such plunder by attaching a "dead coach" to late night passenger services for London.  Queue (semi-) appropriate train scenes at around 9 to 10 minutes on my recording.

 

First a very nice GER period station with coaches and an engine...

Second a quick shot of a LMSR loco in BR period...

Third a LSWR 4-6-0 eninge (?) on a freight service...

 

My first thought was "R Webster & Co" of Maidenhead and then I realised that I was wrong.

 

What does the team make of this short sequence?

 

regards, Graham

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4 minutes ago, Western Star said:

(Series 3, episode 1),

 

"Sorry, this episode is not currently available"

 

One of the features of the very early films such as the Bushey 1897 film and "The Kiss in the Tunnel" with its Midland sequences near Esholt (both on BFI Free) is that they are shot on 89 mm (3.5") film, which means they have much better resolution, and hence are good for wagon and carriage spotting, compared to the reams of inter-war 35 mm commercial film and even worse, 16 mm and 8 mm hobbyists film. It's the same story of Greshams' Law at work, cheap and nasty driving out expensive and high quality product, as one has with the demise of the glass plate in still photography.

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2 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

"Sorry, this episode is not currently available"

 

One of the features of the very early films such as the Bushey 1897 film and "The Kiss in the Tunnel" with its Midland sequences near Esholt (both on BFI Free) is that they are shot on 89 mm (3.5") film, which means they have much better resolution, and hence are good for wagon and carriage spotting, compared to the reams of inter-war 35 mm commercial film and even worse, 16 mm and 8 mm hobbyists film. It's the same story of Greshams' Law at work, cheap and nasty driving out expensive and high quality product, as one has with the demise of the glass plate in still photography.

 

It carried on into the '80s and '90s with the superior Betamax pushed out by the cheap and grainy VHS. although until digital recording much TV was captured on Betamax, I remember watching the crew setting up a location* sequence of an episode of Heartbeat and the camera was using a pro version of Betamax. 

 

* I seem to remember someone was nicking the lead of Lythe church roof, something that had happened in the past.

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11 hours ago, Worsdell forever said:

much TV was captured on Betamax, I remember watching the crew setting up a location* sequence of an episode of Heartbeat and the camera was using a pro version of Betamax. 

 

IIRC when I worked on TV advertising production back in the day, the standard was Sony U-matic.  I think I still might have some up in the loft.  I do not recall ever seeing Betamax around but that could just be me.

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19 hours ago, Worsdell forever said:

much TV was captured on Betamax

Or did you mean Betacam? (the professional version of Betamax).

 

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2 minutes ago, Nile said:

Or did you mean Betacam? (the professional version of Betamax).

 

 

That's triggered a memory, yes, it had Betacam on the camera.

 

Anyway, back to wagons.

 

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