More Pre-Grouping Wagons in 4mm - the D299 appreciation thread.

[chris p bacon]

Can anyone help with identifying these wagons please.

 

Apologies for the poor photo, it has been cleaned up from the original and this is the best it gets. The person who gave me a copy stated that they were Horseboxes, but the more I look I think they are LNWR cattle wagons. I have been compiling LNWR drawings in preparation to start on the stock I need,  but I have few Horse and Cattle wagon drawings at present.

 

The wagons are in the transfer sidings between the LNWR & GN at Sandy, I have been asked not to post the complete photo :-( 

 

 

 

[Compound2632]

On 12/08/2020 at 13:46, Worsdell forever said:

Anyway, back to wagons.

 

It's been too hot for any real wagon building, so I've been finding a shady corner and doing some more virtual modelling. I've been using the various drawings on the Midland Railway Study Centre website to draw up the frames of a Midland 9'0" wheelbase wagon in CorelDaw. Drawings 550 (D299), 790 (D351), and 1530 (D301) have been my main references though this frame design is also applicable (with some variations) to D342, D343, D344, D336, D305 (drawing 1143 only, not the earlier drawing 213), and all the diagrams of 14'11" covered goods wagon but not timber trucks. Here's what I've got so far:

This is a plan view from above. I've not written in any dimensions; this is really an exercise in getting to understand the construction of the wagon thoroughly. In any case, the method of construction is fairly typical of wood-framed wagons of the later 19th century and beyond.

The frame is 14'11" length over headstocks by 7'6" wide over headstocks. I've counted 24 pieces of timber:

• 2 solebars, 14'2" x 11" x 4½", spaced at 6'1" between inside faces - hence 6'10" over outside faces, which is the key dimension for the modeller.
• 2 headstocks, 7'6" x 11" x 4½". These each have four ⅝" bolts passing through them vertically, with the nuts on the underside. These are at potential points of weakness - either side of the hole for the drawhook and outside the join of solebar to headstock; presumably their function is to prevent the headstock from splitting.
• 2 middle bearers, 6'1" x 11" x 4½". These are spaced 4'7" apart, face-to-face, i.e. 4'11½" centres. As well as bracing the solebars, the side knees are bolted to these - so their position sets the position of the side knees and hence the corresponding external washer plates, which are of course visible on a model, even if the interior isn't modelled. 
• 2 middle longitudinals, 4'7" x 11" x 3½". As well as bracing the middle bearers and supporting the hinges for the bottom doors, these support the cast iron drag box containing the helical springs for the drawbars.
• 4 end longitudinals, 4'5" long, and 4 end diagonals. These are 11" x 3½" but are made in two parts, top and bottom, as there is a large rectangular hole in each for the buffing leaf spring to pass through; the two halves are held together by a number of ⅝" bolts with their nuts on the underside of the wagon. I presume this means that the lower half of each piece could be unbolted and removed, in order to remove the buffing spring - for example, if it needed replacement due to a broken leaf. The end diagonals brace the headstocks where they support the buffers but the buffing force is transferred to the drawbar on the centre-line of the wagon by the buffing spring.

Not included in my count-up but also drawn are the four end pillars, 4" x 4". I believe that all these wooden parts have mortise and tenon joints. There are also twelve iron tie-bars with tapped ends that hold the frame together:

• 4 1" tie-bars running between the end pillars and the middle bearers, passing through the diagonals; these are only ½" below the top of the headstock but slope down to be 2½" below the top of the middle bearer, i.e. they pass over the top of the buffing spring.
• 4 ⅞" tie-bars running from the drawbar hook plate to the middle bearer, either side of but 2½" above the drawbar, so just passing over the top of the buffing spring.
• 2 ¾" tie-bars running transversely, just inside the middle bearers - at 4'6" centres and 2" above the bottom of the solebars. These have rather prominent nuts that are missing from the solebar moldings of the Slaters 4 mm/ft kits; lately I've taken to adding a representation using the Archer resin rivet transfers.
• Not drawn, a second pair of tie-bars running transversely directly above the first pair, 1" below the top of the solebar. I think these are ⅝" rather than ¾". These run through the side rails and are terminated by nuts that have as washers the bottom end of the vertical body-side washer plate that takes the nuts and bolts coming through from the side knees. As the later are aligned with the middle bearers, the washer plate is J-shaped, turning in by 2¾": There are five further ⅝" bolts that secure the side rail to the solebar but these don't run right across the wagon.

At the joints of the solebars and headstocks there are various iron brackets and plates that hold the two components together and also support the bolts holding the buffer shanks in place; I'm still trying to figure these out.

 

The axleguards are of ¾" thick iron, bolted to the solebar with ⅝" bolts, nuts on the outside backed by 2¼" wide x ¼" thick crown and wing plates; these and other details yet to be drawn.

 

I think that understanding how the wagon is put together, even though most of the parts are invisible on a model, helps to ensure that the model is accurate. It also helps when one is confronted with a photograph of a wagon, enabling one to reconstruct the probable dimensions, as with the Great Western 1870s Saltney-built wagons I've been looking at.

 

 

Edited September 11, 2022 by Compound2632
Images re-inserted

[billbedford]

That's the first time I've seen cattle trucks with toper do vents....m

 

Actually they look a lot like GN clerestory fruit/fish vans

[Compound2632]

15 minutes ago, chris p bacon said:

Can anyone help with identifying these wagons please.

 

I had just started typing, with LNWR Wagons Vol. 1 on my knee, to explain why I didn't believe they were LNWR cattle wagons, when Bill's response popped up; putting that back on the shelf and reaching for LNER Wagons Vol. 1, I agree with his identification. There's a lot going on up top; on the sides, there's what could well be the louvres occupying the right proportion of space under the eaves, and there's a good hint of the X-bracing. Wasn't there a lot of fruit traffic from that part of the world?

 

There used to be D&S whitemetal kit for one of the diagrams of these vehicles.

[Penlan]

Bill,
I seem to recall the G.C.Rly had something similar, but
for the G.N.Rly do you mean something like this 

[Compound2632]

With the eye of faith one can see the stepboards.

[chris p bacon]

17 minutes ago, billbedford said:

That's the first time I've seen cattle trucks with toper do vents....m

 

Actually they look a lot like GN clerestory fruit/fish vans

 

I wasn't 100% sure of the clerestory, I expected it to be a little more 'proud' of the roof. I noted the vents but not knowing LNWR wagons had gone down the route of the person who gave me a copy.

 

7 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

I had just started typing, with LNWR Wagons Vol. 1 on my knee, to explain why I didn't believe they were LNWR cattle wagons, when Bill's response popped up; putting that back on the shelf and reaching for LNER Wagons Vol. 1, I agree with his identification. There's a lot going on up top; on the sides, there's what could well be the louvres occupying the right proportion of space under the eaves, and there's a good hint of the X-bracing. Wasn't there a lot of fruit traffic from that part of the world?

 

There used to be D&S whitemetal kit for one of the diagrams of these vehicles.

 

This area* isn't known for fruit ( and not unsurprisingly fish either)  they are in the transfer sidings so probably not local traffic.

 

I think You're both right and I'd gone down the wrong route.

 

* We were market gardening (veg and salad) but now nothing but grain and paddocks.

[Compound2632]

1 minute ago, chris p bacon said:

This area* isn't known for fruit ( and not unsurprisingly fish either)  they are in the transfer sidings so probably not local traffic.

 

* We were market gardening (veg and salad) but now nothing but grain and paddocks.

 

Aha. I was lumping Beds in with areas further north - particularly south Lincs - which were definitely fruity. The M&GN had some rather similar fruit vans, though lacking the clerestory, but despite the similarity to the GN vans, I believe they were of Eastern & Midlands origin so the resemblance is co-incidental.

 

What might the traffic be, if they're being exchanged at Sandy? Could still be Lincolnshire fruit - or even fish - but heading in a generally westerly direction?

[chris p bacon]

16 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

What might the traffic be, if they're being exchanged at Sandy? Could still be Lincolnshire fruit - or even fish - but heading in a generally westerly direction?

 

I haven't figured out where it could be heading.

 

If it's produce from Lincs it could go via Peterborough and across to the Midlands via Stamford, if heading into East Anglia it could have gone on the Joint. This might mean it's produce from Cambridge/East Anglia heading to The MR, LNWR or GWR but if so why in GN wagons?

The road they are on is within the GN boundary, a wagon in the Down GN yard can be moved via this road all the way to the Down LNWR in 2 moves.

 

It could be fish which would be fast on the UP GN but slow when on the LNWR, that would be a lot of fish too.

Edited August 12, 2020 by chris p bacon

[jwealleans]

I know it's a bit late for you, Dave, but recently reading Mixed Traffic by R. Barnard Way, he relates a journey with the Scotch Goods (15:40 KX-Niddrie) which habitually called at Sandy and added wagons of fresh produce.   This was 1937 and on that occasion two vans and a sheeted open were picked up.

[billbedford]

I think there is something odd about having so many identical wagon marshalled into the same train. Most photos of fruit season trains show a mixture of different stock, the same is true of fish trains. The only situation I can think of where bulk train like this would be used would be for regular imports of staples that needed specialised van. The classic would be bananas, but obviously not in this case, tooth possibility would be butter. Whether it was Irish butter shipped into Liverpool and bound for London or Danish shipped in to London and bound for the West Midlands, I couldn't say. 

 

Penlan:  Yes, just like that one, except some had louvers in the tops of the doors. 

[chris p bacon]

4 hours ago, jwealleans said:

   This was 1937 and on that occasion two vans and a sheeted open were picked up.

 

That was a 'light' day , I've got some details somewhere of the average pick up for the Niddrie at Sandy and was 5-10 vehicles. The produce going through the GN goods yard at Sandy was 70+ tons a day sometimes 100T

 

18 minutes ago, billbedford said:

I think there is something odd about having so many identical wagon marshalled into the same train. Most photos of fruit season trains show a mixture of different stock, the same is true of fish trains. The only situation I can think of where bulk train like this would be used would be for regular imports of staples that needed specialised van. The classic would be bananas, but obviously not in this case, tooth possibility would be butter. Whether it was Irish butter shipped into Liverpool and bound for London or Danish shipped in to London and bound for the West Midlands, I couldn't say. 

 

That is why I find the photo interesting, The road they are was in constant use so they hadn't been there long, nor would they stay there.

[chris p bacon]

21 hours ago, billbedford said:

That's the first time I've seen cattle trucks with toper do vents....m

 

Actually they look a lot like GN clerestory fruit/fish vans

 

Just to come back to this one, I knew that somewhere in the past I had seen a livestock van with vents.

 

 

 

[jwealleans]

Is it possible they were GE vans from Parkeston?   I can't remember the details of their butter vans.   I still think GN fruit vans is a possibility.

[billbedford]

But there is this one al well

 

[jwealleans]

Why can I not 'like' that picture?

[Darryl Tooley]

Just now, jwealleans said:

Is it possible they were GE vans from Parkeston?

I don't think so.  These had outside framed doors and lacked torpedo ventilators.  They were for the imported butter traffic and had 'Parkeston & London' written on the side.  Also there were only ten of them.

 

Don't think they're GN calf vans either - these lacked clerestories.

 

My money's still on this:

[chris p bacon]

44 minutes ago, billbedford said:

But there is this one al well

 

What is there not to like about Lard...

 

I'm still convinced they're Fruit/Fish/Milk vans as the shadow on the roof has to be a clerestory.

[MarshLane]

1 hour ago, jwealleans said:

Why can I not 'like' that picture?

 

Possibly because the account its posted from is in moderated status.

 

35 minutes ago, Darryl Tooley said:

My money's still on this:

Great model of that NE van.

 

Rich

[Compound2632]

Lard & Butter London & Liverpool - the routing would be CLC / MS&L / GN via Retford. Presumably the GN was still able to route goods traffic that way after the opening of the MS&L's London Extension. The Lard and butter would be Irish. The vehicles in @chris p bacon's photo clearly have relatively shallow louvres below the eaves, that are continuous along the bodyside (except possibly the doors) which I believe rules out the butter van.

 

I did wonder if it might be new stock being delivered by the builders but Tatlow gives no hint that these types of vehicle were built anywhere but Doncaster. Usually where there is an outside builder involved he notes this.

[Compound2632]

I've just had an email from Stuart Rankin of the Glasgow and South Western Railway Association with scans of a folder of information on the 10 ton box wagons, per the 51L kit:

 

 

This confirms 18" lettering, with the baseline about half-way up the bottom plank. It'll be out with the transfers as soon as I get the chance!

 

I'm very grateful to Stuart and the GSWRA for taking the time and trouble to help me out with this.

Edited September 11, 2022 by Compound2632
image re-inserted

[Annie]

On 05/08/2020 at 01:26, Ian Smith said:

For info, the wagon sheets that I drew up are my interpretation of what I could see in photographs (I later purchased a 2009 version of “Great Western Way” from the HMRS which has appendix 13 dedicated to wagon sheets covering both broad and narrow gauge periods).

I have just received a hardback copy of the 150 anniversary edition of 'Great Western Way' and to my horror it only goes up to appendix 10 the same as my 1st edition copy.  I only purchased the 150 anniversary edition because I thought it had appendix 13 with the information on wagon tarps.  Does this mean that I now have to go hunting for yet another edition of 'Great Western Way'.  Please excuse me so I can go off and have a really good scream.

[Compound2632]

It seems to be the 2009 edition one wants.

[Annie]

The HMRS want just under $NZ100 for postage to New Zealand.  I have never had anyone in the Uk attempt to charge me that much to send me a book in all the time I've been buying books from the Uk.

[Buhar]

1 hour ago, Annie said:

The HMRS want just under $NZ100 for postage to New Zealand.  I have never had anyone in the Uk attempt to charge me that much to send me a book in all the time I've been buying books from the Uk.

Does it have to pay for its own quarantine then?

Alan