More Pre-Grouping Wagons in 4mm - the D299 appreciation thread.

[Nick Holliday]

On 22/03/2021 at 17:40, richbrummitt said:

On a complete tangent (but the thread title suggests that the followers here might know the answer that I do not have the reference books for):

 

In the interests of adding variety to the stock box I have three different kinds of LBSC open bodies to, I believe, (SR?) diagrams 1365 and 1370. One type has straight ends and all have outside diagonal strapping. I am not familiar with the development and practices of aforementioned company and Southern Wagons vol. 1 hasn't answered my questions particularly well. To represent condition as at 1920(ish):

• What kind of brakes?
• ditto axleboxes?
• How should the sheet rail on the 1370 appear - a solid bar or the movable type? Were there any without?
• Are there any other companies with wagons similar enough that it is a simple conversion, SECR maybe?

TIA.

Having been summoned by Stephen @Compound2632 I suppose I'd better have a stab at answering your questions.  It would help if you could say what source you have for these wagons, to check the Diagram numbers, as 1365 is either a four plank design, and then re-allocated to cover the conversion of Dia 1368 (the last LBSC type) by removing the round  end.

What kind of brakes? - Could be anything from a single block, to one sided to a full double sided system. Depends on when built, or whether it has been upgraded. Mainly single sided when built, up until 1911, but by 1920 many might have received a second set, or freighter brakes.

Perhaps I should mention that the LBSC did experiment with various fancy designs f brakes, and fitted Laycock's designs to four wagons, and Lane's, Parker's and Great Western designs to one of each. 

Axleboxes - Grease up until 1905, oil on those built later, and many, by 1920, might have been upgraded.

Sheet rail - Solid wooden bar for the first of the 1370, but by the turn of the century probably the moveable type.  Easy to remove the wooden bar, and the metal one also seems to have been dispensed on some. There were plenty of square ended D² types available though which didn't have a rail.

Overall, the answer appears to be whatever you want, as almost any combination is possible.

Are there any other companies with wagons similar enough that it is a simple conversion, SECR maybe? Sorry, I don't understand the question, as you haven't indicated in which direction you want to make the conversion.  There are plenty of people supplying LBSC opens, of varying types, and very few from other companies.  Current producers include Cambrian and Smallbrook Studios, 5&9 produce some earlier designs, Turbosnail has produced 3D printed Dia 1371 and there are probably more examples in 3Dland, and K's and Nu-Cast produced kits which often end up on auction sites.

Edited March 24, 2021 by Nick Holliday

[Compound2632]

On 24/03/2021 at 11:53, Compound2632 said:

Great Western wagon No. 20171 was a 2-plank open of old series Lot 97 built at Worcester c. 1874. However, it's perhaps equally likely to be a LNWR wagon.

 

If that wagon is the Great Western one, I spotted its sibling No. 20176 today, at West Bay c. 1900. In fact that has been my reference in lettering its Saltley cousin, No. 21635 of old series Lot 93:

 

 

The West Bay photo conveniently provides evidence for G.W.R on the left surviving (nearly) to my period on one of these wagons. There seems to have been a reluctance to spread the lettering out onto the top plank! For No. 21087 of old series Lot 53, I've taken the Stourbridge smash photo for my reference, though the style is the same as the 1-plank wagons in the Cinderford photo, barring the G.W.R and number swapping ends.

 

The transfers are the waterslide ones from Fox. Although it's a fiddly and slow process, I enjoy this stage, with the wagons acquiring identities, which is probably why I have pushed on - I will have to go back to blacking up the nether regions.

 

 

Edited June 16, 2022 by Compound2632
image re-inserted

[Compound2632]

Next one: No. 19258, about 15 months older than its sibling No. 21635, being from old series Lot 75, completed December 1872.

 

 

Wood has a good photo of one of this batch, No. 19159, which took to the rails in September 1872 [Plate 28 and cover]. That wagon had been upgraded with iron brake blocks (I was tempted) but the photo is from before February 1906 when it was given oil axleboxes with larger journals, becoming a thoroughly modern 10 ton wagon! I've broadly followed its lettering, though the G . W . R is a bit more spread out, in the manner of No. 20435 of Lot 112 [Wood, Plate 29, date unknown] and also No. 20181 of Lot 97 [Ibid, Plate 32, April 1908]. This is about as close to a standard livery as it gets, I think - there are so many variations I find myself wishing I'd built more wagons. I've resisted the temptation to letter each side differently! There are variations, though. No. 20181 omits the word Tare (as do many, it seems) while on No. 19159 there's no sign of the words To Carry, which is useful since I'm running low on those. 

 

I've been using warm water to float the transfers, per Fox's instructions, followed by a wash of MicroSet which is effective in removing traces of the carrier film. I thought I'd set up with the same lighting as Wednesday's photo but its a much duller day outside - interesting how much effect that has on the apparent colour of the Halfords red primer.

 

I've just got the old series Lot 66 4-plank coal wagon to letter now. I'm in a bit of doubt over this, as my only reference is a couple of photos of the RH end of a wagon in the Safety Movement booklet, p. 16. That wagon is a Factory wagon, so what can be seen of its lettering is possibly non-standard. It's been a leap of faith that this wagon is of the Lot 66 type anyway. 

 

 

Edited June 16, 2022 by Compound2632
image re-inserted

[Mikkel]

Great shade of red Stephen. Halford's primer looks like a winner for this, good to know. 

 

Saltney Works lives again!

[Rail-Online]

16 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

Next one: No. 19258, about 15 months older than its sibling No. 21635, being from old series Lot 75, completed December 1872.

 

 

 

 

 

I like the worn bottom of the door - that makes it so much more 'real' .  The carrier film below the GWR is bridging the plank gap though......

 

Cheers Tony

[Compound2632]

On 27/03/2021 at 11:22, Rail-Online said:

I like the worn bottom of the door - that makes it so much more 'real' . 

 

That's the one where I made the door as a separate piece, so that I could do damage to the curb rail. 

 

On 27/03/2021 at 11:22, Rail-Online said:

The carrier film below the GWR is bridging the plank gap though......

 

Noted. The next step will be the "black" running gear (those brake blocks aren't going to stay in their raw "light oak") and after that matt varnish, at which point such things will be addressed. I also need to put some dots or dashes inbetween the figures of the tare weights - white paint an cocktail stick. Then a final weathering. But for now, still time to make changes.

 

Here's the final member of the quartet, No. 20573 of old series Lot 66, entering service c. April 1872:

 

 

From the information in Wood, abstracted from the Wagon Register, it is one of a group from that Lot described as "Loco Coal", though earlier ones were recorded as "Open Goods (Loco)" and the final 100 as "Open Goods". Several wagons from the Lot seem to have ended up on various Locomotive Department odd jobs such as loco ashes or steamer coal; I think this particular wagon might find itself pressed into Swindon gas works traffic via Bordesley; I find I keep looking at the Cambrian Herring and comparing it with the N-series hoppers...

 

Lettering at the RH end follows the Safety Movement booklet photo, minus the inscription Factory. The G . W is anomalous. The reference photo is c. 1912-1914 but it seems to me unlikely the wagon has been repainted since before 1904. The LH end is just a best guess.

Edited June 16, 2022 by Compound2632
Typo corrected

[Compound2632]

[...]* or pimpling?

 

 

The Archer resin "rivet" transfers again, of course.

 

I don't think I've really explained the Midland 4-plank wagon, though careful readers of Midland Wagons will no doubt have connected it with Plate 15, which shows a loco coal wagon No. 6693, one of a batch of 250 built in the old Derby wagon shops in 1877. A comparison of the return of stock for 31 December 1894 [Ibid, Fig. 22] and the Lot List shows that of the 59,436 high side goods wagons then in stock, around 11,400 - 16,400 pre-dated the introduction of the standard type to drawing 550 in 1882 (i.e. D299, with side and bottom doors). The large range is down to not knowing how many of the 5,000 wagons to Lot 343, placed on 13 July 1894, had entered traffic by the end of that year. The next batch was 2,000 to Lot 358, placed on 14 June 1895, so one might guess about half. So let's say around 14,000 pre-D299 high side wagons. 

 

Of these, 1,000 can immediately be accounted for by Lot 29, built to drawing 402 in 1879/80. These proto-D299 wagons had wooden brake blocks with gear arranged per my 4-plank model; as previously discussed, this precludes bottom doors. These wagons, or at least the one photographed [Ibid, Plate 91], also have a chunky wooden doorstop. Altogether, they look as if they might be the prototype for the S&DJR variant of D299 - those that went to the LSWR in 1914 and survived to be assigned Southern Railway diagram 1304 were without bottom doors, I gather.

 

Working back, the next precursor of D299 is represented by No. 29350, built in the old Derby works in 1875 [Ibid, Plate 90]. This differs in having a through top plank with the door held in place by top latches; it also has ribbed buffer guides, which went out of fashion on the opening of the new works. But how many were built to this design?

 

Further back, in the late 1860s, high side wagons were of a more primitive appearance - four wider planks, internal end knees rather than the familiar external timber end pillars or stanchions, and a long brake lever driving a single wooden brake block via a push-rod, and with a quadrant plate and locking pin arrangement for holding the brake on [Ibid, Plate 34]. These wagons had many details in common with low side wagons built around the same time [Ibid, Plates 23 and 33]. Wagons built in the mid-late 1860s would, on the expectation of a 30-year lifetime, still be in traffic in the mid-late 1890s. I don't know of any photographic evidence for the high side wagons but the low side wagons are attested in Engineer's Department use in 1892:

 

 

 

NRM DY 471, released under the Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-ShareAlike (CC BY-NC-SA 3.0) licence by the National Railway Museum.

 

Before even these wagons, there are tantalising glimpses of open wagons with external wood framing with X-bracing.

 

So, it's unclear where these 4-plank wagons of 1877 fit in. They look like a cut-down version of the immediate D299 precursors. Was there just the one batch of 250 or were they more common? There are two further pieces of evidence. One we've seen before, courtesy of @Crimson Rambler - in a photo of a goods train at Elstree that was discussed here last October, the date of which was pinned down to between late 1895 and early 1900. Here's a crop:

 

 

[Crop from MRSC Item 60585]. 

 

Two for the price of one! I am reasonably certain these are not ex-private owner wagons; features such as corner plates, brake lever, buffer guides, door ironwork so far as it can be discerned, look to be a good match. 

 

The other is in a Derby official of Somers Town goods depot, taken in 1894:

 

 

[Crop from MRSC Item 61369].

 

This is from the edge of the plate so there is some distortion of the perspective. This wagon has been given Ellis 10A axleboxes - I wish I'd noticed that before carving the kit's axleboxes into a crude representation of the 8A type! (I suspect it's been given iron brake blocks too.) And for @Regularity, it doesn't have countersunk blot heads on the inside; rather these look hemispherical - carriage bolts?

 

One other point I've reminded myself of by writing this is that the external washer plates for the side knees don't have the D299's characteristic J-shape (which came in with the Lot 29 wagons), so I bit more paring and carving needed!

 

*The first word of this post as written was chosen to suggest that I was tarting up these models but since it also means to control tarts, it fell victim to the auto censor. 

Edited June 16, 2022 by Compound2632
Images re-inserted

[Crimson Rambler]

Don't know if it is of any interest but a onetime fellow member of the MRS who was heavily into Midland rolling stock referred to the ribbed buffers - present in both the latest photos as 'Kirtley buffers'. He had been in regular communication with Ralph Lacey and RJE discussing varous matters before the society was formed and his particular interest was waggons. 

 

Crimson Rambler

[Compound2632]

23 minutes ago, Crimson Rambler said:

Don't know if it is of any interest but a onetime fellow member of the MRS who was heavily into Midland rolling stock referred to the ribbed buffers - present in both the latest photos as 'Kirtley buffers'.

 

Well, they presumably originated in Kirtley's time though seem to have remained standard throughout the first few years after Clayton's appointment in 1873, up to the opening of the Litchurch Lane works in 1877. A similar change from ribbed to plain buffers can be seen around the same time on the Great Western. I've been using the same MJT buffers for this wagon and the Saltney wagons - 2309: PO non-fitted ribbed. Gloucester RC&W Co. made the change around 1900! But ribbed buffers for PO wagons at least then came back into fashion.

 

The wagons of the 1860s had shorter ribbed buffer guides - since the buffing springs were amidships and the buffers had long tails, they presumably didn't need long guides to prevent lateral twisting.

Edited March 27, 2021 by Compound2632

[Compound2632]

On 27/03/2021 at 17:42, Compound2632 said:

One other point I've reminded myself of by writing this is that the external washer plates for the side knees don't have the D299's characteristic J-shape (which came in with the Lot 29 wagons), so I bit more paring and carving needed!

 

Corrected:

 

Edited June 16, 2022 by Compound2632
image re-inserted

[wagonman]

For what it's worth, I read somewhere that they used poplar wood for the brake blocks as it is more fire resistant. Of course, for our purposes wood is wood is....

 

 

[Compound2632]

4 minutes ago, wagonman said:

For what it's worth, I read somewhere that they used poplar wood for the brake blocks as it is more fire resistant. Of course, for our purposes wood is wood is....

 

A quick google shows that freshly planed poplar is a good match for Humbrol No. 71 (or vice-versa) which is just as well as that's what I used on the brake blocks of the Saltney wagons. Not that they're going to stay so fresh. But at least I know I don't need to depict a charred edge where the block meets the wheel!

[billbedford]

7 minutes ago, wagonman said:

For what it's worth, I read somewhere that they used poplar wood for the brake blocks as it is more fire resistant. Of course, for our purposes wood is wood is....

 

 

Cue story of post WW1 French matches that wouldn't burn long enough to light a fag with. 

 

They were found to have been made from ex-military barracks which had been built with poplar timber. 

[Crimson Rambler]

Came across this photo the other day in an old BRJ and knowing of the recent discussion on Midland refrigerated meat wagons wondered if it might be of interest. I think it may have been taken on the London Extension possibly Harpenden but that could be complete rubbish. The engine is a Class M 0-6-0 - not easy to identify which batch although certain ones can be eliminated. It dates (probably) from after 1896 but before 1903 when the lamp codes changed.

 

 

The photo is part of RJE's collection and he reckoned there were seventeen vans in the train.

 

Crimson Rambler

[Rowsley17D]

I wonder if they're on route from being built?

[billbedford]

1 hour ago, Rowsley17D said:

I wonder if they're on route from being built?

 

Why would you think that?  Most companies ran block trains from ports such and Liverpool and Manchester for perishable goods. 

[Rowsley17D]

16 minutes ago, billbedford said:

 

Why would you think that?  Most companies ran block trains from ports such and Liverpool and Manchester for perishable goods. 

 

Just a thought, Bill. The vans look in excellent condition and the train reminded me of a photo in the LMS Wagon book (Vol 1?) of a train of new cattle wagons to Midland design.

[Compound2632]

They're not all the same diagram. The axle boxes of the first one sit a little bit lower than those on the next three at least, possibly eight. Also I think there's just a hint that they're flatter-faced, where the following ones are slightly sloping. Maybe I'm seeing things. But if so, the leading one is to D372 or possibly D370 (both with 3'2" wheels and Ellis 10A grease axleboxes) while the next few are to D374, with 3'7½" wheels and oil axleboxes. That would put the date no earlier than late 1898, in view of the foliage, mid 1899:

 

D370: 30 to Lot 305 of 30 Sep 1892; 51 to Lot 333 of  23 Feb 1894

D372: 100 to Lot 372 of 4 Feb 1896

D374: 110 to Lot 444 of 27 June 1898; 100 to Lot 486* of 13 Jan 1900

 

*R.J. Essery, Midland Wagons Vol. 1 (OPC, 1980) p. 150 reads Lot 480 but reference to the Lot List shoes that this is a typo.

 

D374 were all fitted with AVB, 50 of D372 were through piped along with an unknown number of D370. So we're probably looking at an at least partially fitted goods. What was the definition of Class A? Midland Style gives some pre-1903 headcodes, Class A goods being one lamp at the top of the smokebox and one over the port-side buffer. I've noticed that very often the top lamp wasn't in its official position on the top bracket but on the smokebox door bracket - easier to reach? It was the smokebox door bracket that was removed following the adoption of RCH headcodes on 1 Feb 1903, so it's a useful dating feature.

 

All but the twelfth van have a poster fixed (pasted?) top left - on the sixth van it's come loose and is flapping about. This is where later vehicles have the horizontally-boarded panel - so presumably that's its purpose. But when were those added? And do these vans have them?

 

@Crimson Rambler, I take it this is a scan from BRJ. (Which issue?) Is the print in Essery's collection sharper?

 

The signal box is unusually 30' x 15', made up of 15' panels rather than the usual 10', so ought to be identifiable. 

[richbrummitt]

On 24/03/2021 at 16:57, Nick Holliday said:

Having been summoned by Stephen @Compound2632 I suppose I'd better have a stab at answering your questions.  It would help if you could say what source you have for these wagons, to check the Diagram numbers, as 1365 is either a four plank design, and then re-allocated to cover the conversion of Dia 1368 (the last LBSC type) by removing the round  end.

What kind of brakes? - Could be anything from a single block, to one sided to a full double sided system. Depends on when built, or whether it has been upgraded. Mainly single sided when built, up until 1911, but by 1920 many might have received a second set, or freighter brakes.

Perhaps I should mention that the LBSC did experiment with various fancy designs f brakes, and fitted Laycock's designs to four wagons, and Lane's, Parker's and Great Western designs to one of each. 

Axleboxes - Grease up until 1905, oil on those built later, and many, by 1920, might have been upgraded.

Sheet rail - Solid wooden bar for the first of the 1370, but by the turn of the century probably the moveable type.  Easy to remove the wooden bar, and the metal one also seems to have been dispensed on some. There were plenty of square ended D² types available though which didn't have a rail.

Overall, the answer appears to be whatever you want, as almost any combination is possible.

Are there any other companies with wagons similar enough that it is a simple conversion, SECR maybe? Sorry, I don't understand the question, as you haven't indicated in which direction you want to make the conversion.  There are plenty of people supplying LBSC opens, of varying types, and very few from other companies.  Current producers include Cambrian and Smallbrook Studios, 5&9 produce some earlier designs, Turbosnail has produced 3D printed Dia 1371 and there are probably more examples in 3Dland, and K's and Nu-Cast produced kits which often end up on auction sites.

Thank you for your informative reply. I have been able to recently complete the first three wagons based on photographs in Southern Wagons vol. 2 that I think can be said to representative to my time period. 

I was hoping to make the LBSC wagon body into something SECR. This was driven by what I thought would be an opportunity to have visual interest in a red body. I have since discovered that red was not in use by the time period of my modelling. Furthermore I don’t think there is anything similar enough to be simple in conversion from LBSCR to SECR open. 
 

What are ‘freighter brakes’? The Southern wagons vols. use the term but I have not found a description within the pages. (I have only vols. 1 and 2). 
 

The source of the bodies is an .stl file created by a friend then produced on my printer. They are all 5 planks in the side with either a 3 plank rounded end (1370?) a one plank rounded end (some of 1370?) or straight end (cut down 1370 = 1365?).

[Crimson Rambler]

Stephen - it was scanned from BRJ issue No 26, page 267.

 

Just to be pedantic if I may, port is not a relative term like left and right. In the case of Midland locos port would be synomymous for the fireman's side. Incidentally for this particular code, at night the top lamp would shew a blue light while the lamp on the driver's side was the normal white.

 

According to Midland Style a class B cattle and goods train exhibited lamps in the same position, differing only in that blue and white lights changed position.

 

As Compound 2632 has observed crews often used the door lamp iron in place of the correct one on top of the smokebox - very common on express trains. Incidentally, if a tender engine ran tender first it could only imply it was an ordinary passenger train!

 

 

Crimson Rambler

 

 

[Compound2632]

1 minute ago, Crimson Rambler said:

Stephen - it was scanned from BRJ issue No 26, page 267.

 

Just to be pedantic if I may, port is not a relative term like left and right. In the case of Midland locos port would be synomymous for the fireman's side. Incidentally for this particular code, at night the top lamp would shew a blue light while the lamp on the driver's side was the normal white.

 

According to Midland Style a class B cattle and goods train exhibited lamps in the same position, differing only in that blue and white lights changed position.

 

As Compound 2632 has observed crews often used the door lamp iron in place of the correct one on top of the smokebox - very common on express trains. Incidentally, if a tender engine ran tender first it could only imply it was an ordinary passenger train!

 

 

Crimson Rambler

 

 

 

I was using 'port' as convenient shorthand for 'over the right-hand buffer from the driver's point of view, the left hand buffer from the signalman's point of view. Unlike ships' lights, it is as you point out not a fixed relationship to the locomotive, but to the direction of travel. 

 

Weren't Midland engines, like most pre-Grouping engines, driven from the right-hand side - which would be 'port' in my short-hand?

 

Perhaps it would be less ambiguous to use the terms nearside and offside.

[PenrithBeacon]

Yep

[Trog]

On 29/03/2021 at 21:48, wagonman said:

For what it's worth, I read somewhere that they used poplar wood for the brake blocks as it is more fire resistant. Of course, for our purposes wood is wood is....

 

 

 

I thought that elm was traditionally used for brake blocks?

 

Poplar is a very soft wood a bit like willow in texture that I find burns well in my stove, and is I believe one of the traditional timbers used for matches. (There are at least a couple of different types of poplar and one may be better for match making than the other/s.)

[Compound2632]

3 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

I was using 'port' as convenient shorthand for 'over the right-hand buffer from the driver's point of view, the left hand buffer from the signalman's point of view. Unlike ships' lights, it is as you point out not a fixed relationship to the locomotive, but to the direction of travel. 

 

Weren't Midland engines, like most pre-Grouping engines, driven from the right-hand side - which would be 'port' in my short-hand?

 

Perhaps it would be less ambiguous to use the terms nearside and offside.

 

Bother. I realise I've been muddling up my port and starboard, hence the confusion over driver's position. For 'port' read 'starboard'.

 

On the Midland, the driver's side was the offside. This means that the fireman was on the nearside so if getting down from the engine, e.g. to carry out Rule 55, he would not be endangering himself by stepping into the six foot (on a normal double line).

[Dave Hunt]

1 hour ago, Compound2632 said:

Bother. I realise I've been muddling up my port and starboard, hence the confusion over driver's position. For 'port' read 'starboard'.

 

Easily done, which is one of the reasons that at about the time I joined the RAF the terms  'port' and 'starboard' were dropped in favour of left and right. To avoid confusion when writing, I always put in the introduction to the Midland Engines and LMS Locomotive Profiles books the statement that left and right referred to the sides of a locomotive when looking forward, irrespective of the orientation of photographs.

 

Dave