More Pre-Grouping Wagons in 4mm - the D299 appreciation thread.

[Mikkel]

Ahh, good to see a GWR wagon in red - it's been a while since one last appeared up on here.  A nice build, and Ian's pre-grouping sheet works really well I think. As you say it helps reduce the shock effect! 

 

I’m in doubt about the pair of straight door stops – were the wagons built with them? They look like a more modern addition.

 

They don't appear in early shots of the 4-plankers (see eg the Atikins, Beard & Tourret tome), so should probably be removed in your case. I've seen a date for the introduction of the stops somewhere, but I can't seem to find it just now.

 

 

Now for the key question for me as a modeller: are transfers for the small G.W.R lettering available?

 

There are some on the standard HMRS GWR wagon sheet, which might be the best option if you don't need many? But as John says the BGS also do a sheet, although I haven't personally tried them.  You can order from their products list without being a member, I have done that a couple of times with no problems.

 

 

I think the exact shade of red is a moot point: it was red oxide, which would vary a bit. Add some weathering, and it would vary a lot more!

 

 

That's been my philosophy too, although it would be good to establish the general direction of how it weathered.

 

On that note: In the discussion on GWR red in the blogs referred to earlier, Buckjumper raised a point which is quite thought provoking. The quote is a bit long but as I know not everyone visits the blogs I think it's worth repeating here:

 

 

 

I really like the fading you've achieved on the mink.

 

This elusive red is something I've been thinking about for some time as I have a number of wagons to be painted, but I keep going back to Sidney Stone's contemporary articles on wagon and carriage construction (he worked for the GER, LSWR, Met. RC&W Co., Ashbury RC&I Co and eventually was Asst. Loco Works Manager for the GCR).  In his writings he describes the properties of the various contemporary pigments, how they were collected, ground, mixed, etc, and he also comments on their various lightfast properties. I quote some pertinent passages below:

 

Quote

Red lead (also known as minum)  was composed of two oxides of lead, roughly 65% protoxide and 35% binoxide....it...mixes well with oil and has good covering power, dries quickly and is permanent (ie, is lightfast) except in the presence of sulphur or sulphide.

 

That last bit is an important point. Interestingly, he goes on to say that:
 

Quote

...when mixed with white lead it becomes very fugitive, the only pigments it can be safely mixed with , in regards to colour, are the ochres, earths and blacks in general.

 

Used alone it is very durable.

 

With regard to other reds available for industrial use he notes that:

 

Quote

Reds and red-browns, prepared from antimony sulphide are fine powders requiring no grinding, and mixing readily with oil. The reds have great covering powers, and if unadulterated will not change in strong light or impure air. Many reds are made from ferric oxide and from waste liquors and bye [sic] products obtained in copper refining, etc. All oxide reds are durable and have good covering power.

 

Quote

Carmine is the most brilliant red pigment, it is obtained from the dried bodies of females of the Coccus Cacti, an insect which is native to Central America. it is too expensive for ordinary use, and is not durable, but sometimes used for internal decorations [in carriages].

 

Quote

Vermilion, known in its natural state as Cinnabar is a sulphide of mercury. The finest is the Chinese, but the Dutch has a good name and that prepared with sulphide of potassium excels for beauty of colour. If genuine, vermilion is very durable, but is sometimes adulterated with red lea, brick dust, oxide of iron, etc, and when so adulterated , it does not stand the weather.

 

Pause for thought I think...

 

 

To which Miss Prism responded:

 

Fascinating stuff, BJ. We'll need our electron microscopes next!

 

 

Indeed. Coal smoke has a fair bit of sulphur in it, and lead sulphide is black, so if wagons were painted with red lead, they wouldn't be red for very long.

 

With increasing industrialisation, maybe the GWR saw what was happening to their wagons, and thought, well, if they all look grey after a while, why don't we paint them grey in the first place?

 

 

In other words, it could it be that GWR red weathered to.... grey! The implication being that GWR wagons during the red livery period would be both red *and* "grey" (and various shades in between!).

 

 

Edited. RMweb doesn't like me quoting from the blogs to the threads, hope I've got it sorted now. 

Edited July 24, 2016 by Mikkel

[drduncan]

I too use red up to 1904 (and for wagons after this date that haven't had a visit to the repair works up to say 1910ish). See my blog

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/blog/1569/entry-16508-the-wagon-and-carriage-shop-red-wagons/

Edited July 24, 2016 by drduncan

[BG John]

In other words, it could it be that GWR red weathered to.... grey! The implication being that GWR wagons during the red livery period would be both red *and* "grey" (and various shades in between!).

That's an interesting comment, and makes sense to me. Many of the photos I've looked at suggest that wagons were pretty rough and worn after a while, and trains and yards full of bright neatly painted wagons would represent a very rose tinted romantic view of Victorian/Edwardian times. So maybe the way to go is to use red as the basic colour, but weather them at various stages of turning grey and tatty, rather than a neat coat of grey. That's an interesting challenge for someone who's never done any weathering!

Edited July 24, 2016 by BG John

[steve LY]

Having some time on my hands, I have been working my way through my stash of 4mm scale wagon kits, starting with some pre-grouping examples. As may be evident, my enthusiasm is for the Midland Railway, so first up, a couple of Midland wagons: an 8 ton high-sided wagon to D299 (left) and an 8 ton low-sided goods wagon to D305 (right).

 

Midland D299 and D305.JPG

 

These are both built from Slater’s kits, nice and straightforward so long as one is aware of the major pitfall with the D299: if the sides and ends are assembled to each other and the floor first, one finds that the solebars are too tall and stick out below the headstocks in a most unprotypical manner. Better to fix the solebars to the floor first; then add the ends, lining the bottom of the headstocks up with the bottom of the solebars. The sides are fixed in place last with some careful fettling of the notches in the ends of the siderails so that the corner plates line up. This does mean that the floor is too high, i.e. the inside depth of the wagon is about 0.5 mm less than it should be but for a loaded wagon that’s irrelevant. The kits for the D342 coke wagon and D357 covered goods wagon have the same issue (but the height of the floor really doesn’t matter unless you want to model a van with an open door…) but oddly, the D305 wagon didn’t seem too. Nevertheless I built it in the same sequence.

 

On the D299 wagon, the right-angle bend in each corner plate is rounded by a mixture of skrawking with the craft knife and gentle needle-filing. There probably ought to be a square of metal overlapping the top two planks of the door on the brake side of the wagon, to protect the woodwork when the door is dropped against the brake gear – I should have photographed the non-brake side!

 

On the D305 wagon, I’ve added the door stops on the ends of the drop sides, carved from 60 thou square microstrip.

 

The solebars have some moulded-on detail which is in the wrong place for most wagons, as far as I can tell from my treasured copy of Bob Essery’s “Midland Wagons” Vol. 1. The moulded numberplate is to the left of the V-hanger whereas photos show it consistently to the right. The builder’s plate is too near the right-hand end; it should be just to the right of the crown plate for the right-hand axleguard. Both these are scraped off; the transfers represent them adequately. (I forgot this on the side shown of the D299 wagon.) The square plate that on the prototype says “TO CARRY 8 TONS” (Essery calls this the ticket plate) is in the right place but the little rectangular spring-clip thing – which I would suppose is the label clip – is too far to the left. I’ve left it as it wouldn’t survive an attempt to relocate it; I don’t think I could make a satisfactory replacement, and something is better than nothing!

Below the solebar, things are what I venture to call pseudo-finescale. I could cut everything off and replace with brass but haven’t quite had the patience. The W-irons are a bit thick compared to some other plastic kits; skrawking the outside edges to make them thinner helps without weakening the structure – most of the material is in the spring and axlebox anyway. Axleboxes are drilled out 2 mm diameter and gently countersunk 3 mm diameter for Gibson bearings. The inner V-hanger is very carefully thinned by skrawking – and then repaired… The outer V-hanger and brake lever are a single moulding. I thin the V-hanger as much as I dare but it’s still the least satisfactory feature on the solebar: over-thick and lacking bolt-heads. On these two wagons I drilled a 0.6 mm diameter hole in the back of the outer V-hanger, through the bottom of the inner V-hanger, and through the middle of the brake gear moulding and used a piece of plastic rod to connect them all together. The final touch – actually done before fitting the brakes – is to cut away the moulded safety loops and replace with microstrip, so daylight shows through.

The 3-link couplings are Slater’s. The wheels are Gibson 00. There is a pretention that one day I’ll upgrade to P4 so the alignment of the brakes is a bit ambiguous. An advantage of modelling this period is that with brakes on one side only, I’ve lots of spare brake mouldings!

 

I painted the D299 wagon Humbrol matt 64 and the D305 Precision LMS goods wagon grey, on a Halfords white undercoat in both cases. In the flesh I can’t tell the difference but the photo shows the Humbrol to be bluer; I think I prefer the Precision colour but the Humbrol is easier to brush-paint. Below the solebar is Humbrol matt 33 – detail stands out better in the flesh than in the photo; some weathering would no doubt help.

These two kits came from the Coopercraft stand at ExpoEM 2014 and so unlike the old boxed Slater’s kits, didn’t include Pressfix transfers. I had long ago bought several sets of the Methfix version that Slater’s used to stock as a separate item. I’ve not used Methfix before. Whilst I’m reasonably happy with the end result, it was a bit of a trial. Things float arounf too much for too long! I started with the recommended meths/water mix, which worked well enough for the large letters though I followed up with MicroSol to get the transfers to bed into the planking grooves. The tare weights were the real nightmare; wandering off all over the place – there’s no backing film to hold the numbers in position relative to each other. I was very glad that on the Midland, painted wagon numbers didn’t come in until 1917!

I finished off (for now) with Humbrol spray-can matt varnish.

 

The Midland built 62,000 D299 high sided wagons between 1882 and 1900 – that works out at 12 per working day (on a five-and-a-half day working week). That’s about half the Midland’s goods stock. For an Edwardian period Midland layout, I reckon every fourth wagon I build should be one of these! (Allowing 50% Midland, 25% PO, 25% other companies – possibly too high a proportion of the latter.) There’s at least one in any early 20th-century goods yard photo – no pre-grouping modeller should be without several. I’ve read the various discussions on here about the current unavailability of these kits and have no wish to start another; the kit has been around for 40 years now and has its defects. Would that some enterprising manufacturer stepped forward to produce an up-to-date version! High-quality kits abound for many obscure pre-grouping wagons – the D299 wagon is the MOST UNOBSCURE item of pre-grouping rolling stock!

 

The low-sided D305 wagons were not as numerous – although still running into the thousands by my early Edwardian period, with more built right up to 1915 – and consequently surviving longer. The dimensions and construction are generic enough that the kit could be used to represent several other companies’ wagons, if I could bring myself to do so from my meagre stock…

 

Excellent work L&Y Man my self. But totally agree you can never have enough Midland wagons ....keep up the good work.

[Compound2632]

That's an interesting comment, and makes sense to me. Many of the photos I've looked at suggest that wagons were pretty rough and worn after a while, and trains and yards full of bright neatly painted wagons would represent a very rose tinted romantic view of Victorian/Edwardian times. So maybe the way to go is to use red as the basic colour, but weather them at various stages of turning grey and tatty, rather than a neat coat of grey. That's an interesting challenge for someone who's never done any weathering!

 

I too use red up to 1904 (and for wagons after this date that haven't had a visit to the repair works up to say 1910ish). See my blog

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/blog/1569/entry-16508-the-wagon-and-carriage-shop-red-wagons/

 

 

Ahh, good to see a GWR wagon in red - it's been a while since one last appeared up on here.  A nice build, and Ian's pre-grouping sheet works really well I think. As you say it helps reduce the shock effect! 

 

 

 

Thank you all for your comments - Mikkel thank you very much for drawing all that discussion together; drduncan, your thread was one of the ones I had read along with Mikkel's that contributed to my decision to reach for the Humbrol 100 - apologies that I failed to reference it. It's this generous pooling of information that is making RMWeb a great stimulus to my modelling. The GWR must be the most thoroughly researched and have the greatest published literature of any of the old railway companies (the Midland coming second) and yet it's so difficult to answer such a seemingly simple question! What Swindon records survive from this period? - the GWR must have been ordering the basic pigments even if mixing its own paint. As to the effects of the sulphurous atmosphere: when I lived in Oxford in the 1980s, it was a revelation seeing black buildings disappear under scaffolding and emerge golden yellow.

[Compound2632]

Excellent work L&Y Man my self. But totally agree you can never have enough Midland wagons ....keep up the good work.

 

Watch this space... I'm trying to find my supply of low-melt solder, then I'll be screwing up my courage to address some whitemetal L&Y wagon kits.

[Guy Rixon]

Now for the key question for me as a modeller: are transfers for the small G.W.R lettering available?

 

 

Fox have them on their GWR general-freight sheet: http://fox-transfers.co.uk/transfers/gwr-freight-vehicle-general-pack-60154

[Compound2632]

Speculative Great Western wagons continued…

 

I bought this Coopercraft kit for the 7’6” internal height V4 at the same time as the O4. To my uneducated eye, this looks like a typical Great Western van – I can see that the Ratio kit represents a later generation with more modern goings-on below the solebar and planked doors speaking of declining standards of bodywork but otherwise they’re all the same to me unless they’re made of iron. So you may imagine my dismay on reading in Atkins that this kit represents only the last 22 vehicles of Lot 479 of 1904. My supposedly generic Great Western van is in fact one of the rarest. I should have built 2,818 D299 wagons before allowing myself one of these!

 

I have had my revenge on Swindon:

 

 

That’s a roof hatch. Atkins says some had them, as an experiment. There’s no indication what it should look like so I’ve based this on what the L&NWR and L&YR did, on the basis that that might just have been what Swindon were thinking of. (The Midland had tried a similar experiment in 1892; it didn’t catch on either.) The door is a square of 20 thou plastikard and the runners are built up from microstrip. I’m supposing the handle is on the inside! If anyone can show me what this should really look like, I’ll be happy to peel it off and start again. Anyway, I have a hunch that hatches may only have been fitted on some of the 8’ high vans; the whole Lot looks like an experiment that was getting out of hand until someone cried “Stop!” as the 178th wagon rolled off the production line…

 

No ventilator bonnet on the end, as befits “as built” condition, according to my reading of Atkins.

 

Painting was an interesting journey. I think it’s clear these wagons came out after the move to 25” letters and hence were always grey. First the unsatisfactory Halfords white primer, followed by Precision GWR Freight Wagon Grey – grey! I’d call it black; certainly much darker than any photo of a restored wagon. After some rooting around, I tried Precision NBR Freight Wagon Grey. (I don’t know why I had this!) To my eye, it seems a much more probable shade. This didn’t brush well – after two or three well-thinned coats coverage is not very even and the white primer is showing through in places, despite the very dark grey undercoat. Tell me I’ve achieved the look of worn paint on a wagon that’s been in traffic for a while! The roof is a lighter shade of grey, given a wash of sludge grey thinners.

 

Transfers are the waterslide ones supplied in the kit. I cut these out as close to the lettering as I dared and was quite pleased with the result of my first use of MicroSol and MicroSet – the big letters have set well into the planking grooves. Unfortunately even after a coat of matt varnish, the transfer film is still quite reflective and prominent in the photos – less so in the flesh.

 

 

For some reason the 7’6” vans were rated for 9 tons whereas the 8’ vans were 10 tons – surely for a goods van it’s the bearings that dictate the load, not the internal volume? (Unlike the coal wagons I posted earlier – though of course the RCH wagon would have appropriately larger bearing area than the Gloucester wagon.) The transfer sheet only had 10 tons, so we have to suppose the signwriter or his foreman had an off day.

Edited August 26, 2022 by Compound2632
Images re-inserted

[wagonman]

Oh the vexed question of GWR wagon colours! The brake vans changed to grey in 1888 – that much is known – but AFAIK nobody has located the smoking gun for the colour change on ordinary wagons. Obviously the change was no later than 1904, but could it have been earlier? Since the last time I painted a GWR wagon, about 30 years ago, opinion has shifted towards the 1904 date which means I have a lot of repainting to do...

 

The V4 van is interesting – I have no idea what the roof hatch looked like but your guess seems as good as any – but it lacks the crucial 'swan-neck' operating lever for the brakes, probably because the Coopercraft kits have never included it. There is/was an etch produced by ?????, or you could cobble one up from 10thou plasticard.

[Compound2632]

The V4 van ... lacks the crucial 'swan-neck' operating lever for the brakes, probably because the Coopercraft kits have never included it. There is/was an etch produced by ?????, or you could cobble one up from 10thou plasticard.

 

Quite so, as I noted for the O4, but there's also the question of the gubbins the swan-necked lever hangs off at the lever end. One solution - my preferred route - is to stop dabbling in this minefield of early 20th century Great Western wagons and turn to something with much, much simpler brakes!

 

Fox have them on their GWR general-freight sheet: http://fox-transfers.co.uk/transfers/gwr-freight-vehicle-general-pack-60154

 

Guy, thanks again for pointing me towards these. When I looked at the 25" letters there, my immediate reaction was that the G was rather strange - the one applied to my V4 has a white line of uniform width (like the later 16" letters) whereas Fox's is thinner at top and bottom and thicker at the waist - like typefont rather than a signwriter's letter. But then while googling for wagon tarpaulins (of which more anon) I cam across this Basset-Lowke Gauge 1 model:

http://www.vectis.co.uk/Page/ViewLot.aspx?LotId=470946&Section=6597. The G looks very like Fox's. Note also the colours; medium grey for the GW wagon, very light grey for the Midland one and a very red red for the Caledonian. I guess from the tarpaulins that these date from 1922! Any idea how accurate these are as a record of contemporary livery?

 

 

 

Edited July 25, 2016 by Compound2632

[7TunnelShunter]

And talking of brakes...

 

This is a really informative thread and shows cases some excellent wagons... I do love a good wagon.

 

However, I note that all the illustrated wagons have the handbrakes painted in underframe/body colour. I am used to working wagons with the handles highlighted in white... on the real railway in the 1980s and in on heritage lines. When stood in the 10 foot (in the dark) with a rake of wagons rolling towards you picking out which end, or even which wagon, had a hand brake was much easier if they were (weathered) white.

 

So my question is, was this, like white platform edging, a WW II change? In which case I will be repainting the handbrakes on my 1936 era stock (but, looking on the bright side, not having to pick out the handles on future builds!).

 

Any speculation or information welcome

 

Thanks 

 

Chris

Edited July 26, 2016 by 7TunnelShunter

[Dazzler Fan]

I'll be using red up to 1904, unless more evidence comes to light before I get my brushes out.

 

............. yes, but how long did it linger?

 

For something unusual there are 3D printed GWR Pollen C's, now

with the three numbered pairs on a dedicated rub-on sheet.

 

noel

Edited July 26, 2016 by Dazzler Fan

[BG John]

............. yes, but how long did it linger?

 

For something unusual there are 3D printed GWR Pollen C's, now

with the three numbered pairs on a dedicated rub-on sheet.

 

noel

Single Study 1 (2).JPG Running.JPG

As my layout is set in 1905, I think there would have been plenty of red ones still around.

 

I'm trying to avoid the unusual, and find wagons that would have been usual at the time. The problem is that many of them would probably have been from the pre diagram period that no one seems to have written about, or produced kits of.

[Compound2632]

And talking of brakes...

 

This is a really informative thread and shows cases some excellent wagons... I do love a good wagon.

 

However, I note that all the illustrated wagons have the handbrakes painted in underframe/body colour. I am used to working wagons with the handles highlighted in white... on the real railway in the 1980s and in on heritage lines. When stood in the 10 foot (in the dark) with a rake of wagons rolling towards you picking out which end, or even which wagon, had a hand brake was much easier if they were (weathered) white.

 

So my question is, was this, like white platform edging, a WW II change? In which case I will be repainting the handbrakes on my 1936 era stock (but, looking on the bright side, not having to pick out the handles on future builds!).

 

Any speculation or information welcome

 

Thanks 

 

Chris

Thanks Chris. I've not seen evidence of white-handled brake levers on Midland, L&NWR, L&YR, NER, NBR, or NSR wagons or LMS-built wagons before nationalisation - the only exception I've found on a quick skim through Essery & Morgan "The LMS Wagon" is their plate 16A, a steel-bodied loco coal wagon to D1973, in a transitional livery - grey with small lettering - i.e. c. 1936. This photo appears to be of a wagon in traffic. Official photos of new wagons, including the all-steel 16 ton mineral wagons of 1947-9, have all-black brake levers.

 

On the other hand, most of the 19th and early 20th century wagons illustrated in Montague's "Private Owner Wagons from The Gloucester Railway Carriage and Wagon Company Ltd" do have the end 6" or so of the brake lever painted white. All these also have the wheel/tyre rims picked out in white too, and there's plenty of photographic evidence that that didn't last in traffic...

 

The Midland had a dedicated ambulance van for men injured in the yards at Toton - shunting was always a hazardous occupation. The Health & Safety at Work Act was many years away; safe working was regarded as very much the individual employee's responsibility only rather than a collective duty of all parties.

 

One speculative point: there was much less artificial light about in the period I'm modelling, so less to impede night vision. Much night-time shunting could have been by moonlight.

 

 

............. yes, but how long did it linger?

 

For something unusual there are 3D printed GWR Pollen C's, now

with the three numbered pairs on a dedicated rub-on sheet.

 

noel

Single Study 1 (2).JPG Running.JPG

 

Noel, very good-looking models indeed but divide the number of Pollen Cs by 62,000 to get the probability of me building one. (Or as they came in pairs, perhaps make that divide by 31,000!) Unless, of course, your layout is set in South Wales or the Black Country. As I've said above, it's all very well using the latest techniques to produce these beautiful models of obscure prototypes but what's the point if there's no good kit for the single most common item of pre-grouping rolling stock? (Vide my frustration with the 22 7'6" V4 vans.) Imagine a dystopian world in which you were trying to model late 50s/early 60s and there was no RTR or kit 16T steel mineral wagon except for the Airfix one going for silly prices on ebay!

 

As my layout is set in 1905, I think there would have been plenty of red ones still around.

 

I'm trying to avoid the unusual, and find wagons that would have been usual at the time. The problem is that many of them would probably have been from the pre diagram period that no one seems to have written about, or produced kits of.

John, I absolutely agree on having a strong bias to the usual, if one's aim is a model of what the railway was actually like. "The problem" does seem to be a specifically Great Western problem, which is surprising given the huge interest in and vast amount published about that company. For the Midland, we're fortunate that a wealth of archival material survives going back at least to the late 1870s and the opening of the Litchurch Lane carriage & wagon works in Derby; I don't know exactly the situation for other companies but judging by the carriage and wagon books that have been published, the last two decades of the 19th century seem to be reasonably well-documented. So, for a layout set in the first decade 20th century, for many companies it's only stock over a quarter of a century old that is a grey (or red) area. Of course, for a GW modeller of the pre-pooling era, that's not much help... Of course, you can always justify a Midland D299 5-plank open (but see above)!

 

Those photos of Reading goods yards show plenty of wagons with small G.W.R lettering around 1910.

Edited July 26, 2016 by Compound2632

[BG John]

John, I absolutely agree on having a strong bias to the usual, if one's aim is a model of what the railway was actually like. "The problem" does seem to be a specifically Great Western problem, which is surprising given the huge interest in and vast amount published about that company. For the Midland, we're fortunate that a wealth of archival material survives going back at least to the late 1870s and the opening of the Litchurch Lane carriage & wagon works in Derby; I don't know exactly the situation for other companies but judging by the carriage and wagon books that have been published, the last two decades of the 19th century seem to be reasonably well-documented. So, for a layout set in the first decade 20th century, for many companies it's only stock over a quarter of a century old that is a grey (or red) area. Of course, for a GW modeller of the pre-pooling era, that's not much help... Of course, you can always justify a Midland D299 5-plank open (but see above)!

 

Those photos of Reading goods yards show plenty of wagons with small G.W.R lettering around 1910.

It's probably due to the GWR not disappearing at the grouping, so most people just think of the 1920s onwards. Broad gauge wagons aren't such a problem, as some are covered by the BGS Data Sheets that quote dates and numbers for each individual wagon, which suggests the information exists. But narrow gauge ones seem to be a problem. Coopercraft kits are OK for new wagons in 1905, and some can be backdated, but I've seen little of much use on all the other wagons that must have existed.

 

Midland wagons got everywhere, so it's good that the information is available, but it's a shame the Slaters kits have fallen into the same black hole as the Coopercraft ones.

 

The problem with all the carriage and wagon books that have been published is that they cost money, and either weren't available, or I wasn't interested, at the time I could comfortably spend loads of money building up my library.

[Compound2632]

The problem with all the carriage and wagon books that have been published is that they cost money, and either weren't available, or I wasn't interested, at the time I could comfortably spend loads of money building up my library.

 

Quite so. I'm saving up for a full set of the L&NWR wagon books now that the third volume is expected at Christmas and the end of my period of un-moneyed leisure is in sight. Unfortunately moneyed un-leisure will slow down my rate of wagon building...

[Nick Holliday]

It's probably due to the GWR not disappearing at the grouping, so most people just think of the 1920s onwards. Broad gauge wagons aren't such a problem, as some are covered by the BGS Data Sheets that quote dates and numbers for each individual wagon, which suggests the information exists. But narrow gauge ones seem to be a problem. Coopercraft kits are OK for new wagons in 1905, and some can be backdated, but I've seen little of much use on all the other wagons that must have existed.

 

 

What about the David Geen kits?  They have an outside framed van, various types of three plank opens and an early fruit van.  I think they were originally produced by the Great Western Society before they passed to David.  Not to mention the Ratio and ABS Iron minks, the Shires Scenes cattle van, ABS short cattle wagon and the Ian Kirk outside framed van.

[7TunnelShunter]

Thanks Chris. I've not seen evidence of white-handled brake levers on Midland, L&NWR, L&YR, NER, NBR, or NSR wagons or LMS-built wagons before nationalisation - the only exception I've found on a quick skim through Essery & Morgan "The LMS Wagon" is their plate 16A, a steel-bodied loco coal wagon to D1973, in a transitional livery - grey with small lettering - i.e. c. 1936. This photo appears to be of a wagon in traffic. Official photos of new wagons, including the all-steel 16 ton mineral wagons of 1947-9, have all-black brake levers.

 

On the other hand, most of the 19th and early 20th century wagons illustrated in Montague's "Private Owner Wagons from The Gloucester Railway Carriage and Wagon Company Ltd" do have the end 6" or so of the brake lever painted white. All these also have the wheel/tyre rims picked out in white too, and there's plenty of photographic evidence that that didn't last in traffic...

 

The Midland had a dedicated ambulance van for men injured in the yards at Toton - shunting was always a hazardous occupation. The Health & Safety at Work Act was many years away; safe working was regarded as very much the individual employee's responsibility only rather than a collective duty of all parties.

 

One speculative point: there was much less artificial light about in the period I'm modelling, so less to impede night vision. Much night-time shunting could have been by moonlight.

 

 

Thanks - I agree lack of artificial light is a further confounding factor - but one was using a hand lamp - to signal the loco, see where one was treading and so was not using to look of brake handles. It is interesting if the white handles became widespread after nationalisation  but not in the 'black out' and the PO wagons is further confusion.

 

Image of 2881 - a 'brown vehicle with the roundel' in traffic with white handbrake ends ! 

http://www.alextrack.co.uk/model_railways/2mm_finescale/non_passenger_carrying_coaching_stock/parcels_miscellaneous_vans_pmv_gwr_fruit_d_pasfruit.html

 

So I think I am going to be searching for images of wagons in traffic pre-war - and a quick search appears to show most without white ends, lots in which it is impossible to tell and some with white ends... Rule 1 applies.

 

Thanks

 

Chris

[SRman]

Speculative Great Western wagons continued…

 

I bought this Coopercraft kit for the 7’6” internal height V4 at the same time as the O4. To my uneducated eye, this looks like a typical Great Western van – I can see that the Ratio kit represents a later generation with more modern goings-on below the solebar and planked doors speaking of declining standards of bodywork but otherwise they’re all the same to me unless they’re made of iron. So you may imagine my dismay on reading in Atkins that this kit represents only the last 22 vehicles of Lot 479 of 1904. My supposedly generic Great Western van is in fact one of the rarest. I should have built 2,818 D299 wagons before allowing myself one of these!

 

I have had my revenge on Swindon:

 

GW V4 low with roof hatch roof view.JPG

 

That’s a roof hatch. Atkins says some had them, as an experiment. There’s no indication what it should look like so I’ve based this on what the L&NWR and L&YR did, on the basis that that might just have been what Swindon were thinking of. (The Midland had tried a similar experiment in 1892; it didn’t catch on either.) The door is a square of 20 thou plastikard and the runners are built up from microstrip. I’m supposing the handle is on the inside! If anyone can show me what this should really look like, I’ll be happy to peel it off and start again. Anyway, I have a hunch that hatches may only have been fitted on some of the 8’ high vans; the whole Lot looks like an experiment that was getting out of hand until someone cried “Stop!” as the 178th wagon rolled off the production line…

 

No ventilator bonnet on the end, as befits “as built” condition, according to my reading of Atkins.

 

Painting was an interesting journey. I think it’s clear these wagons came out after the move to 25” letters and hence were always grey. First the unsatisfactory Halfords white primer, followed by Precision GWR Freight Wagon Grey – grey! I’d call it black; certainly much darker than any photo of a restored wagon. After some rooting around, I tried Precision NBR Freight Wagon Grey. (I don’t know why I had this!) To my eye, it seems a much more probable shade. This didn’t brush well – after two or three well-thinned coats coverage is not very even and the white primer is showing through in places, despite the very dark grey undercoat. Tell me I’ve achieved the look of worn paint on a wagon that’s been in traffic for a while! The roof is a lighter shade of grey, given a wash of sludge grey thinners.

 

Transfers are the waterslide ones supplied in the kit. I cut these out as close to the lettering as I dared and was quite pleased with the result of my first use of MicroSol and MicroSet – the big letters have set well into the planking grooves. Unfortunately even after a coat of matt varnish, the transfer film is still quite reflective and prominent in the photos – less so in the flesh.

 

GW V4 low with roof hatch.JPG

 

For some reason the 7’6” vans were rated for 9 tons whereas the 8’ vans were 10 tons – surely for a goods van it’s the bearings that dictate the load, not the internal volume? (Unlike the coal wagons I posted earlier – though of course the RCH wagon would have appropriately larger bearing area than the Gloucester wagon.) The transfer sheet only had 10 tons, so we have to suppose the signwriter or his foreman had an off day.

 

I alo had a problem with the early GW grey livery, but in my case, it was the lack of "proper" Great Western wagon grey paint in any case. Being in Australia, it is not easy to come by, and many shops in Britain have been very difficult about posting paints, even though the regulations have been relaxed slightly and clarified recently. I had also recently painted an SECR wagon and and ex-LCDR brake van with the correct colours for the SECR, and I thought that this colour looked very similar to the GW grey, so used that. I am happy with the result, even if it isn't quite 100% correct. I haven't added numbers yet, but I would value your opinion on my choice.

 

 

[Dazzler Fan]

+

 

The "Fringe" on a waterslide definitely does nothing for the look of a model,
whether or not it is spot on prototype.

Several kit makers have been pumping out kits for a lifetime of many in the

hobby, yet we still get the kits with original waterslide transfers.

Rub-on transfers are by far a better deal for getting a crisp and near finish

to the RTR with their Pad Printed liveries; but this introduces another problem

of transferring very small items and print.

The answer of course is to mount the very small print on a bigger backing of

primary colour of the kit. A print of a transparent colour background for

Rub-Ons has to be abandoned because it still gave the shadow of a

Waterslide.

The choice has to be made for kit colour in the hope that the modeller will

accept the compromise for a better finish with small items of livery.

 

Noel
 

[Edwardian]

Varnish the area to be occupied by the waterslide transfer (including, of course, the unprinted margin surrounding the image) with gloss varnish.  Once hard, apply the transfer and coat area with matt varnish. 

 

That should solve the problem.

Edited July 26, 2016 by Edwardian

[Fat Controller]

Thanks - I agree lack of artificial light is a further confounding factor - but one was using a hand lamp - to signal the loco, see where one was treading and so was not using to look of brake handles. It is interesting if the white handles became widespread after nationalisation  but not in the 'black out' and the PO wagons is further confusion.

 

Image of 2881 - a 'brown vehicle with the roundel' in traffic with white handbrake ends ! 

http://www.alextrack.co.uk/model_railways/2mm_finescale/non_passenger_carrying_coaching_stock/parcels_miscellaneous_vans_pmv_gwr_fruit_d_pasfruit.html

 

So I think I am going to be searching for images of wagons in traffic pre-war - and a quick search appears to show most without white ends, lots in which it is impossible to tell and some with white ends... Rule 1 applies.

 

Thanks

 

Chris

Was the general adoption of white for the ends of handbrake levers, and for handbrake wheels, perhaps introduced during WW2, alongside black-out regulations?

[Compound2632]

Varnish the area to be occupied by the waterslide transfer (including, of course, the unprinted margin surrounding the image) with gloss varnish.  Once hard, apply the transfer and coat area with matt varnish. 

 

That should solve the problem.

Edwardian, following further experience to be posted in due course, I've come to the conclusion that that's the next thing to try. As you may have realised, this workbench thread is not yet running in "real time" though most of what I'm writing up here has been done in the last couple of months.

 

Was the general adoption of white for the ends of handbrake levers, and for handbrake wheels, perhaps introduced during WW2, alongside black-out regulations?

Not so, on the evidence of official photos of newly-built post war LMS wagons - see my reply to Chris (7TunnelShunter) above.

[Compound2632]

 

I alo had a problem with the early GW grey livery, but in my case, it was the lack of "proper" Great Western wagon grey paint in any case. Being in Australia, it is not easy to come by, and many shops in Britain have been very difficult about posting paints, even though the regulations have been relaxed slightly and clarified recently. I had also recently painted an SECR wagon and and ex-LCDR brake van with the correct colours for the SECR, and I thought that this colour looked very similar to the GW grey, so used that. I am happy with the result, even if it isn't quite 100% correct. I haven't added numbers yet, but I would value your opinion on my choice.

 

Hi SRman, I'm no expert and was rather hoping to provoke a response from those with much better knowledge of the subject, on the basis that the most effective way to be told what's right is to do what's wrong! But your grey looks as good a grey as any other I've seen - a bit more of a medium grey than mine but I'm sure no lighter than I've seen elsewhere.

[SRman]

Thanks for your comments. I am no expert when it comes to GWR or pre-grouping either. 

On the subject of transfers, I like the 'pressfix' transfers myself, using them wherever possible in preference to any other type. There is no carrier film, but they are easier to handle and apply than rub-on types.

 

I completely agree with you about doing it wrongly: you do the research as much as your own resources allow, take a punt on the bits you cannot ascertain clearly, then go for it with the paints and transfers. Post a pic, then someone will emerge from the woodwork to point out the errors! In the longer term, it all helps us to improve our modelling, though.

Edited July 26, 2016 by SRman