More Pre-Grouping Wagons in 4mm - the D299 appreciation thread.

[Compound2632]

On 29/07/2016 at 13:54, sharris said:

As far as my comment goes re: LMS and MR greys, Essery's MR Wagons and LMS Wagons books give similar recipes for MR wagon grey and LMS wagon grey. 

 

Identical, at least until 1929: 112 lb white lead,9 lb linseed oil, 9 lb turps, 30 lb dryers, 4 lb black and 36 lb boiled oil – don’t try this at home. I think we’ve exhausted the grey topic for the time being. We’re on to page 4 and still only covered a handful of wagons but I’m afraid we’re going back to the Midland Railway D299 high sided goods wagon.

 

Most of the photos I’ve shown have been “ground level” shots. In the case of the two Midland wagons this hides the lack of any interior detail, as I’ve been intending them to be loaded. I put a false ceiling of plastikard in the D299, about 1 mm below the top of the sides. (I drilled a 3 mm diameter hole in the floor so as not to have a trapped volume of air, as I understand this can be a cause of distortion in the long run.) I then loaded it up with Das “sacks”, following an example in “Midland Wagons” (Vol. 1 Plate 94):

 

 

Mrs Compound (perhaps we should call her “Beatrice”) said, “Those don’t look like sacks. They look like lumps of clay”, which is true enough but doesn’t matter because the next move is to sheet them over:

 

 

The ropes are done in the same way as for the O4: grey sewing thread attached by dipping the end into a very small puddle of Roket Max thick non-runny cyano glue and steering into place with a sewing pin. The ropes along the sides are glued under the siderail in the places where photos show securing rings; likewise on the headstocks, though the buffer casings have also been used.

 

This tarpaulin is from a sheet I bought some years ago at the Warley exhibition at the NEC. It’s by the Model Wagon Sheet Company. I’ve not seen these for sale again since though there’s still a live website: http://www.wagonsheets.co.uk/. Does anyone know if they’re still trading? (Not having any immediate need, I haven’t tried contacting them myself.) It’s printed on a thin, waxy paper that is supported by a backing sheet – the tarpaulin has to be cut out carefully with a sharp blade to avoid tearing. The lettering shows through on the underside. The photo doesn’t show the “wet look” I’ve managed to achieve on the top of the tarpaulin. This was achieved by smearing UHU on the top layer of sacks, then putting the sheet on upside-down… Needless to say, the sheet was quickly but carefully removed and put back on the right way up!

 

I forgot to take a photo of the sheet before I put it on the wagon. Here are a couple I made up at the same time for future use; these are both Roger Smith’s, well crumpled:

 

 

The Roger Smith sheets include a representation of the three tags along the first seam in on either side; on the LNWR sheet I’ve glued the ropes to these. When the tags were used, the sides of the sheet would be furled up (see http://myweb.tiscali.co.uk/gansg/9-loads/9-tarps.htm) so I’m going to try to recreate this, which will be just as well as it should hide the fact that this particular sheet is only really suitable for the period between May 1920 and July 1921 – as indicated by the white “date of last overhaul” and red “date due back at the sheet stores” markings.

 

I’m off for a week in the north country, resting my eyes on green hills and grey stone walls. I’ll leave you with one of Bill Bedford’s, by way of thanks for his input to the great grey debate:

 

 

London and North Western Railway covered goods wagon to D32, just crying out for a Mikkel-esque cameo: “How are we supposed to unload this thing?” Now we understand why LNWR goods depots had so many wagon turntables…

Edited August 24, 2022 by Compound2632
Images re-inserted

[garethashenden]

I'm glad you started this thread, there can never be too many pre-grouping wagon builders.

 

You may have said, and I may have missed it, but how did you do the numberplate on the D32? Mine needs one...

[Compound2632]

I'm glad you started this thread, there can never be too many pre-grouping wagon builders.

 

You may have said, and I may have missed it, but how did you do the numberplate on the D32? Mine needs one...

 

Fed up with packing for the hols so back here again! The numberplate is from the waterslide transfer sheet that (still) comes with the Ratio "LMS Traffic Coal and 4-Plank Wagons" kit 576 - of which more anon. The diamonds and tare weight numbers are from the HMRS LNWR Presfix sheet and the dots are white paint applied with the end of a cocktail stick. Thanks for your encouragement!

[Penlan]

I've used the Ratio LNWR Numberplate transfers, cutting up the numbers to give me a greater range on my wagons, but I'm tempted (as in I've bought a few and will use them) to just use the etched plates from Coast Line Models here and hope nobody takes a close up photo of the wagon(s).

 

I would be tempted with the D32 Van to paint it in the earlier livery. as shown in the bottom right hand corner of this photo of Windsor Goods Yard circa 1900.  I've included the whole photo as I believe there is much of interest here.  

For Windsor, there seems to a lot of LNWR wagons in the yard,

but that's what's on the back of the photo.

I've had this photo for some 40+ years, who gave it to me is lost in the mist of time.

Looking closely at it, it's probably taken as a copy from a magazine.

 

Edited July 29, 2016 by Penlan

[Compound2632]

cutting up the numbers to give me a greater range

 

Blimey, the tare weight numbers were at the limit of what I could do. The Coast Line range is new to me but looks v. interesting.

 

That's a splendid photo, lots of lovely diamonds - and drawing together several themes from this topic so far. Do you know where and when it was taken? I note the compulsory MR D299 open in the fourth line of wagons! The wagon sheet in the foreground is going to be a challenge to replicate. But it's the two-tone D32 that's the real shocker - I've seen this livery on models and in paintings and been deeply sceptical. I don't (yet) have the LNWR Wagon books, my main guides have been the wagon pages on the LNWR Society website and the HMRS LNWR Liveries book. Nice wagon turntable.

 

Now I really must finish packing...

[Spitfire2865]

 

With regards to the wagon sheets, they are still trading AFAIK, as I ordered from them sometime last year.

Very friendly, and very helpful. Plenty of variety too.

Still havent used all of them yet, but what I did use, I was very pleased with.

Only issue with them that I have is they are a tad fragile, as I like to not glue them on, but use the ropes to secure it. Feels more natural to me. But, getting a material in 4mm to actually conform like fabric is impossible without a shrink ray.

[Nick Holliday]

That photo of a goods yard full of mainly LNWR wagons was probably taken on the Windsor Street branch of the LNWR, near Saltley.

This is an extract from the NLS maps site, which has been rotated through about 45 degrees to get both the main yard and Windsor Street Wharf in.

There is also an aerial photo taken on 10/6/1938 on the Britain from Above website, ref EPW05740.

Edited July 30, 2016 by Nick Holliday

[Penlan]

Many thanks Nick.. I should have given it more thought, but as I'm retired, I don't seem to have much time spare.... 

That top LH corner Gas Works trackwork looks like something Brian Harrap (RMweb SWAG member) would find eazy peazy.

Edited July 30, 2016 by Penlan

[Quarryscapes]

I'm glad you started this thread, there can never be too many pre-grouping wagon builders.

 

You may have said, and I may have missed it, but how did you do the numberplate on the D32? Mine needs one...

 

You send me a message and I create...

 

https://www.coastlinemodels.co.uk/product/lnwr-diagram-d9-running-numbers/

 

If there's a general spree of D32 purchases going on I guess I could prioritise a batch of those, otherwise there is always the option for having one offs done. 

 

https://www.coastlinemodels.co.uk/product/custom-number-plate-maker-0-25mm-brass-sheet-10-thou/

 

I also have transfers for diamonds if you want to got down that route...

 

https://www.coastlinemodels.co.uk/product/lnwr-diamonds/

Edited July 30, 2016 by Quarryscapes

[garethashenden]

You send me a message and I create...

 

https://www.coastlinemodels.co.uk/product/lnwr-diagram-d9-running-numbers/

 

If there's a general spree of D32 purchases going on I guess I could prioritise a batch of those, otherwise there is always the option for having one offs done. 

 

https://www.coastlinemodels.co.uk/product/custom-number-plate-maker-0-25mm-brass-sheet-10-thou/

 

I also have transfers for diamonds if you want to got down that route...

 

https://www.coastlinemodels.co.uk/product/lnwr-diamonds/

 

Ooh those do look nice. Filled with enthusiasm, I reserved three of the D32s, proper numberplates would be nice to have. Maybe D1s as well? When I asked the question I thought that these plates may have been what had been used. I'd seen them available, but forgotten the name of the company. 

[Penlan]

If there's a general spree of D32 purchases going on ....

The D32 - Door on one side only, is the only kit available in 4mm to my knowledge at present.

Bill Bedford would be able to advise you on his output (presumably privately, commercial confidentiality).

The D33 double sided doors kit by D&S seems to be in limited supply now, mainly through, say, Ebay, .

 

I think I have about eight D33's, but they have numberplates already. 

[Quarryscapes]

Done, will include in the next custom sheet. 

 

[Compound2632]

Back from holiday, finally got through the washing and ironing!

 

 

I got my D32 hot off the press (out of the mould?) from Bill Bedford at ExpoEM last May. Gareth’s thread shows what the kit looks like out of the box; as he says, it’s very straightforward to put together – though I would add, up to a point. This is the first resin kit I’ve tried. I used Roket Max thick non-runny cyano glue, bought from the C&L stand at the same exhibition, which seems to have worked. LNWR wagons up to about the mid-1890s were built using the “scotch” brake – I’ve not quite worked out whether “scotch” here is an adjective referring to its economy or a noun referring to its simplicity of action… Much simpler than the Dean-Churchward brake, anyway! The LNWR do seem to have stuck with some primitive ideas going back to London & Birmingham days. I chose to use the “modern” version with cast iron brake shoe, saving the “primitive” wooden brake-block for later.

 

The point where I had a problem was with the suspension system, which is explained in the generic instructions on the Mousa website. I soldered Alan Gibson waisted bearings into the U-shaped etched brackets and clipped these into place on the suspension wire; the back of the axlebox/spring moulding has a groove to allow this unit to slide up and down. All looked good until I inserted the wheelsets, which forced the axleguards to splay outwards – the bearings were too close together. I’m still unclear where I went wrong – had I misinterpreted the instructions? It’s clear that the U-shaped brackets add an extra thickness of brass, compared to soldering the bearings directly into the brass axleguards as one would do for fixed or rocking-axleguard suspension. These brackets do have an etched circular recess for the bearing to sit in; does it make enough difference which way round this goes? I followed the instruction sheet by putting the bearing through the hole in the U-shaped bracket, rather than sitting the bearing on it. (I hope this description is intelligible.)

 

After some head-scratching, I drilled the bearings to make them deeper. Lacking a tool with the correct 45 degree angle, I used several bits with diameters from 2 mm down. In the end, the wagon rolls sweetly though I need to add some more weight to bring it up to the recommended 25 g/1 oz per axle. (Most of my wagons are too light. I usually add a couple of small steel weights – Coopercraft items – giving 25 g – 30 g total. The Das sacks helped bring the D299 up to 60 g.)

 

I’ve not mentioned preparation for painting previously. I was particularly scrupulous with this one, as I’ve not painted resin before. I use a drop of Fairy Liquid on an old electric toothbrush to give the wagon a good scrub and rinse thoroughly in cold water and drying by gently rolling and dabbing with kitchen towel. I’m open to the advice that Fairy Liquid contains things that are kind to the hands but less so to primer. I’ve not found definitive advice as to what makes a better de-greaser for plastic models. My defence is, it seems to work. I primed with the unsatisfactory Halfords white and then brush painted with several well-thinned coats of my favourite Precision NBR wagon grey. As mentioned above, diamonds and tare weight numbers are from the HMRS LNWR Pressfix sheet and the numberplate is from the Ratio waterslide sheet, as are the less successful numbers on the ends. These look worse in the photo than in the flesh, though I think I’ll replace them anyway as I’d intended to use a number in the 13xxx series but absent-mindedly cut a set of five digits beginning 31 from the transfer sheet. Not having the LNWR wagon books, my reference was the LNWR Society D32 page. Quarryscapes, I might upgrade to your etched plates eventually but as I’ve hinted before the present exercise is one of using up existing material during my unfunded “sabbatical” year.

 

Sorry to return to the question of grey. I think my idea of LNWR grey was formed long ago by photos of Jack Nelson’s dioramas in the Railway Modeller and/or Model Railway Constructor. This leads me to expect a darker than mid-grey. I saw Geoff Williams’ Aylesbury at Railex in May; many of his LNWR wagons are a shade I would definitely call mid-grey, even tending to an LMS-ish sort of grey – though as we know, the latter is nothing other than Midland light lead grey. As we’ve established, all these greys get darker in service, so I’m happy with the grey I’ve gone for. (But what grey would I paint an actual North British wagon?) Anyway Penlan’s photo of Windsor Street yard puts the whole thing in doubt by providing evidence for the two-tone livery. (The possible identification of “Windsor” as this Birmingham location came to me while on holiday – thanks to Nick Holliday for in the meanwhile providing conclusive evidence.)

 

 

 

Edited August 24, 2022 by Compound2632
image re-inserted

[Compound2632]

That photo of a goods yard full of mainly LNWR wagons was probably taken on the Windsor Street branch of the LNWR, near Saltley.

image.jpeg

This is an extract from the NLS maps site, which has been rotated through about 45 degrees to get both the main yard and Windsor Street Wharf in.

There is also an aerial photo taken on 10/6/1938 on the Britain from Above website, ref EPW05740.

 

PS I see this photo has also been discussed recently here.

[Flymo748]

<snip>

 

The point where I had a problem was with the suspension system, which is explained in the generic instructions on the Mousa website. I soldered Alan Gibson waisted bearings into the U-shaped etched brackets and clipped these into place on the suspension wire; the back of the axlebox/spring moulding has a groove to allow this unit to slide up and down. All looked good until I inserted the wheelsets, which forced the axleguards to splay outwards – the bearings were too close together. I’m still unclear where I went wrong – had I misinterpreted the instructions? It’s clear that the U-shaped brackets add an extra thickness of brass, compared to soldering the bearings directly into the brass axleguards as one would do for fixed or rocking-axleguard suspension. These brackets do have an etched circular recess for the bearing to sit in; does it make enough difference which way round this goes? I followed the instruction sheet by putting the bearing through the hole in the U-shaped bracket, rather than sitting the bearing on it. (I hope this description is intelligible.)

 

After some head-scratching, I drilled the bearings to make them deeper. Lacking a tool with the correct 45 degree angle, I used several bits with diameters from 2 mm down.

 

<snip>

 

 

This can be an issue with sprung w-irons, precisely because of the extra layer of brass (twice!) involved in making them up.

 

It sounds like you were hampered by some bearings that are less deep than normal, so the axleguards were forced out.  No complaint at Alan Gibson, or any other manufacturer of these, as the production tolerances seem to make it a bit luck of the draw whether you receive deep bearings or shallow ones.

 

Sometimes if I'm feeling picky I'll choose four particularly deep bearings, using a nifty depth gauge that I think came from a Masokits fret and was kindly given to me by a fellow Scalefour Society member.  I'll see if I have a photo of it somewhere.

 

Either way, you hit on the correct solution - deepen the bearings.  Nice to see yet more pre-Grouping rolling stock emerging.  Please do continue to keep us entertained...

 

Cheers

Flymo

[Compound2632]

This can be an issue with sprung w-irons, precisely because of the extra layer of brass (twice!) involved in making them up.

 

It sounds like you were hampered by some bearings that are less deep than normal, so the axleguards were forced out.  No complaint at Alan Gibson, or any other manufacturer of these, as the production tolerances seem to make it a bit luck of the draw whether you receive deep bearings or shallow ones.

 

Sometimes if I'm feeling picky I'll choose four particularly deep bearings, using a nifty depth gauge that I think came from a Masokits fret and was kindly given to me by a fellow Scalefour Society member.  I'll see if I have a photo of it somewhere.

 

Either way, you hit on the correct solution - deepen the bearings.  Nice to see yet more pre-Grouping rolling stock emerging.  Please do continue to keep us entertained...

 

Cheers

Flymo

 

Thanks Flymo - that's an interesting point. I suspect that all the bearings in a given packet will be from the same batch. Most of my experience is with plastic kits where one is drilling out the back of the axlebox moulding to take the bearing so there's room for adjustment - if on trial assembly the axleguards splay out, I just drill the axlebox a little deeper. All done by hand in my case.

[jwealleans]

I recently built the LNWR glass wagon, which I guess uses similar if not identical underframe and springing arrangements.  51L waisted bearings and split spoke wheels and had no problems with having to splay the W irons at all.

[billbedford]

The point where I had a problem was with the suspension system, which is explained in the generic instructions on the Mousa website. I soldered Alan Gibson waisted bearings into the U-shaped etched brackets and clipped these into place on the suspension wire; the back of the axlebox/spring moulding has a groove to allow this unit to slide up and down. All looked good until I inserted the wheelsets, which forced the axleguards to splay outwards – the bearings were too close together. I’m still unclear where I went wrong – had I misinterpreted the instructions? 

 

You didn't go wrong, bearings and axles are notorious for their lack of consistency, due in part to the working and manufacturing datums  being different, leading to the tolerances being doubled, or halved depending on which way they stack up. The easier way to deal with this is to carefully reduce the length of the axles by a small amount by rubbing the point on some fine wet 'n' dry or on a fine hard sharpening stone.

[Quarryscapes]

Try MJT bearings, they are generally deeper. It's what I use on my own wagon designs which have a nominal 23.6mm between bearing mounting faces rather than the 'standard' 24mm. 

[Guy Rixon]

I'm building a Mousa D32 at present and I had the same problem with the AG bearings. The advice over at the S4 Society's forum is to use Markits bearings which are bored consistently deeper. Problem is, Markits don't sell "waisted" bearings (apparently), and full-fat bearings are a bit large to move within the moulded axleboxes. So I made my own.

 

I started with Markit's flanged bearings. I made a filing jig by drilling a 2mm hole in a scrap of 0.75mm styrene sheet: it holds the bearing with the flange pressed against the bench and the other end exposed for filing down. 

 

I sacrificed one bearing and found that the tip of the conical bearing-surface breaks through as a hole when the bearing is filed down to ~1.0mm from the back of the flange; i.e. when it's standing ~0.2mm proud of my jig.  I didn't measure this dimension accurately.

 

The production process is now first to reduce the diameter of the part that sticks out above the jig, then to file down the remaining "pip" to ~0.5mm above the jig surface. I reduce the diameter using a pillar file with its safe edge running against the surface of the jig and the cutting edge vertical. I file a series of flats and then round off the corners until I have a roughly-circular end to the bearing with a diameter ~1mm.

 

I put the first set of wheels in this morning (second set of Exactoscale wheels is still curing in the gauging jig) and the results were good: no splaying of the axleguards and just a tiny amount of end float, enough to let the wheels spin freely.

[Poggy1165]

You didn't go wrong, bearings and axles are notorious for their lack of consistency, due in part to the working and manufacturing datums  being different, leading to the tolerances being doubled, or halved depending on which way they stack up. The easier way to deal with this is to carefully reduce the length of the axles by a small amount by rubbing the point on some fine wet 'n' dry or on a fine hard sharpening stone.

 

I'm glad Bill has stated this. I've been filing the ends off (7mm scale) axles for years now to get free running. I thought it was me.

[Flymo748]

Thanks Flymo - that's an interesting point. I suspect that all the bearings in a given packet will be from the same batch. Most of my experience is with plastic kits where one is drilling out the back of the axlebox moulding to take the bearing so there's room for adjustment - if on trial assembly the axleguards splay out, I just drill the axlebox a little deeper. All done by hand in my case.

 

The ability to adjust something "just so" is one of the pleasures of modelling - and one of the things that will get models running smoothly as well.

 

As I mentioned, this is the Masokits (I think) bearing depth gauge:

 

 

And if I'm feeling particularly enthusiastic/bored, bearings may be sorted into the appropriate compartment in the Bits Box:

 

 

Cheers

Flymo

[Compound2632]

 Thanks all for these enlightening comments - what a superb resource RMWeb is!

 

The easier way to deal with this is to carefully reduce the length of the axles by a small amount by rubbing the point on some fine wet 'n' dry or on a fine hard sharpening stone.

 

 I thought about this but remembered the hard time I had filing the points off axles when I tried the MJT inside bearing compensation units some years ago. Also, one would end up with a pair of axles specific to this wagon; I'm using OO wheelsets at present but with the thought of moving to P4 at some stage (need a locomotive first!) so it seems better to treat the wheelsets as interchangeable. Of course I'm going to be told that the tolerances on axle length aren't so good either...

[Compound2632]

The Mousa D32 kit got me into a LNWR frame of mind, so joining it in the paint shop were a couple of LNWR wagons I had built a while ago but not got round to painting. These are from Ratio kit 576, described as “LMS Traffic Coal / 4 plank Wagon Set”:

 

 

Referring to the LNWR Society’s wagon pages, the 4-plank wagon can be identified as either a 7 ton wagon to D4 or a 10 ton wagon to D9 – the key difference in the prototypes being the bearing area – while the 5-plank wagon is a 10 ton traffic coal wagon to D54. The kit provides on set of grease axleboxes and one set of oil axleboxes, along with a choice of conventional and “scotch” brake. The 4-plank wagon is 64 mm (16’0”) over headstocks and the 5-plank is 62 mm (15’6”). At the time I assembled the kits, I assumed “longer = newer” so gave the 4-plank wagon the oil axleboxes and both-side conventional brakes, which I have assumed makes it D9. Without the LNWR wagon books, I don’t know when the oil axleboxes came in – I strongly suspect after my early Edwardian period, so the wagon ought to be in the post-1908 livery with large LNWR lettering and, probably, no diamonds. The D54 has the grease axleboxes and the scotch brake on one side only – the photo shows the non-brake side. The “longer = newer” assumption is an oversimplification: according to the LNWR Society website, wagons to D9 were mostly built new between 1902 and 1909 or upgraded from D4 up to 1920, while D54 wagons were rebuilds of the earlier D53 8 ton coal wagons between 1904 and 1910. (The extra 20% capacity was achieved by increasing the number of planks from 4 to 5, plus of course bigger bearing area.) I’m open to being told that the scotch brake didn’t survive the upgrade and that my wagon ought to have conventional brakes on one side only.

 

Judging by this bit of history, the LNWR’s reputation for economy was certainly deserved! I wonder if this practice of upgrading the carrying capacity by upgrading the bearings accounts for the practice of displaying the capacity in large letters on the top plank?

 

Transfers are all from the waterslide sheet that comes with the kit, apart from the tare weight numbers which, as for the D32, are HMRS Pressfix. I didn’t succeed in getting the quite so well lined up this time… (actually the other side of both wagons is better.)

Edited August 24, 2022 by Compound2632
image re-inserted

[Worsdell forever]

This '4 Plank' at Blakey Junction, Rosedale branch certainly had a single brake block and I think grease axleboxes in 1928, just wish I could see it's number...

 

http://image-archive.org.uk/wp-content/MAX/2011_04/165.jpg