More Pre-Grouping Wagons in 4mm - the D299 appreciation thread.

[John_Miles]

Does anyone have a suggestion of an intro book into PO wagons which would be helpful for understanding my period interest - the Peak District Midland 1902.

 

This request has been prompted by the discussions above around the Ince Wagon works book.

 

I am looking for something which might give an overview to the subject and would thus give me an entry into the much more detailed surveys that are available. Ie what companies were out there ... how did the whole business work and evolve ...Is there a company(s) which might have been more prevalent than others during my period and in my area ....  what changes should one be aware of etc etc.

 

I am aware of the Turton and Hudson series - these are good visual sources but there is an element of looking for a needle in a haystack about them when starting from a position of ignorance and from a beginners perspective. As an example, apart from discussions here and elsewhere I have no detailed knowledge relating to dumb buffers etc ... or how legislation changed over time.

 

Any thoughts, guidance, suggestions much appreciated.

 

There is Bill Hudson's excellent book on the Midland's line through the Peak. One the of best line histories ever.

 

Also, with reference to the Turton / Lightmoor series of books above, although Keith Turton has retired, Ian Pope of Lightmoor is planning more books in this series and one is expected to be published this year. I do start to wonder how much more there can be to discover about PO wagons.

[jwealleans]

Keith Turton states in one of his books (don't have it to hand, so apologies if memory is defective) that he reckoned to have found information on about a third of owners and that there are multiple wagon builders known o have existed whose records had not been found. So there is plenty of information missing, the question is more how much exists and can be brought to publication.

[wagonman]

Keith Turton states in one of his books (don't have it to hand, so apologies if memory is defective) that he reckoned to have found information on about a third of owners and that there are multiple wagon builders known o have existed whose records had not been found. So there is plenty of information missing, the question is more how much exists and can be brought to publication.

 

 

Given that at any one time there were upwards of half a million PO wagons in use – and two or three generations of them – there is an awful lot of information missing. How much can be brought to publication is another matter! Most of it is probably lost for ever, but what remains still needs to be collated...

 

We're working on it.

 

 

Richard Kelham

[Compound2632]

Does anyone have a suggestion of an intro book into PO wagons which would be helpful for understanding my period interest - the Peak District Midland 1902.

 

This request has been prompted by the discussions above around the Ince Wagon works book.

 

I am looking for something which might give an overview to the subject and would thus give me an entry into the much more detailed surveys that are available. Ie what companies were out there ... how did the whole business work and evolve ...Is there a company(s) which might have been more prevalent than others during my period and in my area ....  what changes should one be aware of etc etc.

 

I am aware of the Turton and Hudson series - these are good visual sources but there is an element of looking for a needle in a haystack about them when starting from a position of ignorance and from a beginners perspective. As an example, apart from discussions here and elsewhere I have no detailed knowledge relating to dumb buffers etc ... or how legislation changed over time.

 

Any thoughts, guidance, suggestions much appreciated.

 

One is at the mercy of the specific interests of those who have had the enthusiasm and time to do the research - so thanks to Richard Kelham, Ian Pope, and John Arkell, Gloucestershire, Somerset, and Kent have had as thorough a treatment as one could hope for. As has been said, the Keith Turton books are not thematically ordered - a consequence, I think, of the way the series grew - I don't get the impression he started out intending to produce fourteen volumes! All these volumes cover a wide time-span, with examples from the 1880s or earlier through to the second world war. This can be fascinating - I've been picking out the intertwining histories of Stroud coal merchants with the aid of Ian Pope's Gloucestershire volume - but  for the Turton volumes, it does mean one is spending £20 for information on no more than three or four wagons relevant to one's interest or time-period. There is also a knock-on bias in one's wagon modelling, for example, I have far too great a preponderance of Gloucester C&W Co. wagons even for a traffic flow between the North Warwickshire coalfield and Worcestershire/Gloucestershire - aided of course by the Slaters kits...

 

Original research is the way forward. Richard has mentioned the Midland Railway PO Wagon registers in the National Archives and has indicated that they contain a fair amount of information - builders and capacity/dimensions (probably internal?) I expect - though not external appearance, which is what matters most to us as modellers! I've been a few times to Kew though not since I learned of the existence of these registers - it's an enjoyable experience, if elderly large bound ledgers and copperplate handwriting are your thing! But it's only an hour away with one change of train for me, I appreciate that for many it would be much more of an expedition (though not for Lecorbusier, I gather). Finding a day to devote to it is also a challenge...

 

On a different topic, possibly even more relevant to this thread, I've just scraped the last traces of margarine* from a Flora tub for my toast and marmalade. In a Proustian moment, I was reminded that back in the 80s when I first ordered wheels from Alan Gibson, when the firm was run by the man himself from a barn in Cambridgeshire, the goods would arrive packed in scrupulously cleaned Flora tubs. The relevance is, now that we've paid off the new oven and boiler, I think I may be allowed to order a quantity of wheels - I'm right out. The last few photos posted have seen the same pair of 12 mm split-spoke wheels under several different wagons! I should get an order in the post before the toaster fails...

 

*OK I know Flora isn't margarine, but that's the word in use in the Compound household, handed down the generations. 

Edited March 10, 2018 by Compound2632

[John_Miles]

I had a chat with Keith Turton some years ago and he definitely didn't intend to do 14 volumes. As I have found myself, when you start publishing, more information turns up when the book appears, which is both gratifying and annoying. There is one book in the Turton series which just covers one area and that is volume 4 on the anthracite coalfield of South Wales (there was also anthracite in Scotland). It is an absolute gem so far as I am concerned.

 

With regard to Kew, if it wasn't so far away and expensive to get to, I would go there every week. It is an absolute treasure chest of information.

[Penlan]

.....On a different topic, possibly even more relevant to this thread, I've just scraped the last traces of margarine* from a Flora tub for my toast and marmalade. In a Proustian moment, I was reminded that back in the 80s when I first ordered wheels from Alan Gibson, when the firm was run by the man himself from a barn in Cambridgeshire, the goods would arrive packed in scrupulously cleaned Flora tubs. .....

I use both the 'Clover' and 'Delight' 250g rectangular tubs for storage of small kits, wheels etc., Very useful.

 

Back,  somewhat remotely to the topic,  some 40+ years ago, when a friend and I were poking around some old Colliery workings in the Swansea Vale area, we came across the remains of a large fire, that had obviously started out as the rotten remains of PO Wagons.  We also found some Rail Chairs such as Rhymney Railway (RR), LNWR? etc.,

In amongst the ashes we found a couple of Stableford wagon plates.

These are the only examples I've seen where there's a year date in the middle of the Circle/Triangle motive.

John, you may know who has the other plate..... 

 

Edited March 10, 2018 by Penlan

[Penlan]

With regard to Kew, if it wasn't so far away and expensive to get to, I would go there every week. It is an absolute treasure chest of information.

Back in the 1970's when I lived in Malvern, I visited Kew on a regular basis, mainly looking at Neath & Brecon and LNWR records.

Once you's been there a time or two and knew the ropes it was a good day out, and a regular group of researchers there to share their experiences etc.,   It was easier there than at Birmingham Archives.

[Compound2632]

I'd never heard of Stableford before. A quick bit of googling turns up a plate of the same pattern without date and a later design with date. The former appears to be from the Bengal Nagpur Railway, so the firm evidently had an export business, whilst the latter is from the Chasewater collection and at least indicates the firm was in business throughout the late pre-Grouping period. Graces' Guide tells us the firm was established in 1862 by one John W. Stableford and bought by William Stableford in 1878 - this latter Stableford had been Managing Director of the well-known Oldbury C&W Co. but came from the Leicester area. But what did their products look like (specifically their goods wagons for British customers)? 

[Invicta]

I'd never heard of Stableford before. A quick bit of googling turns up a plate of the same pattern without date and a later design with date. The former appears to be from the Bengal Nagpur Railway, so the firm evidently had an export business, whilst the latter is from the Chasewater collection and at least indicates the firm was in business throughout the late pre-Grouping period. Graces' Guide tells us the firm was established in 1862 by one John W. Stableford and bought by William Stableford in 1878 - this latter Stableford had been Managing Director of the well-known Oldbury C&W Co. but came from the Leicester area. But what did their products look like (specifically their goods wagons for British customers)? 

 

Stableford went into liquidation in the late 1920's- a caption in a book of old photos of Coalville gives a date of 1928, and states that they did a lot of export business in India, Africa and the Middle East- the photo shows a bogie oil tanker for export circa 1920. A decline in this export trade was apparently one of the reasons for the liquidation of a business which at the turn of the century had over a thousand employees. They also had interests in brickmaking and sawmilling.

 

I'm pretty sure there are mentions of Stableford in the Keith Turton PO wagon books but without digging through them can't recall if any actual Stableford-built POs are illustrated.

 

The works was located alongside the railway on Mantle Lane Coalville- the buildings still exist and since the 1980's have been used as managed small business units, known as the Springboard Centre - I've read somewhere that the adjoining terrace of houses were built as workers' housing by Stablefords

Edited March 10, 2018 by Invicta

[wagonman]

Stableford was resurrected as Stableford (1929) Ltd which became a subsidiary of Marcroft Wagons Ltd, possibly when it too was wound up in 1941. Marcrofts continued to use the site until c1980. There is a Stableford-built wagon in Turton Volume 3 – it's also on the cover – one of a batch of 500 built for Manton Colliery in 1923, but not to the new RCH standard.

[Compound2632]

There is a Stableford-built wagon in Turton Volume 3 – it's also on the cover – one of a batch of 500 built for Manton Colliery in 1923, but not to the new RCH standard.

 

Well, that's one can look at without searching for a second-hand copy of the book! They were clearly geared up for volume production, anyway. The photo is evidently a Stableford official, which leaves one wondering if it's a chance survival or whether there's a local museum holding an archive.

[wagonman]

Well, that's one can look at without searching for a second-hand copy of the book! They were clearly geared up for volume production, anyway. The photo is evidently a Stableford official, which leaves one wondering if it's a chance survival or whether there's a local museum holding an archive.

 

 

From Keith's text I suspect that it is indeed a lucky survivor. I've not tried the Leicester CRO yet, though.

 

[edit] Just checked the RO index: only some correspondence with a pipe company c1930

Edited March 10, 2018 by wagonman

[Invicta]

Stableford was resurrected as Stableford (1929) Ltd which became a subsidiary of Marcroft Wagons Ltd, possibly when it too was wound up in 1941. Marcrofts continued to use the site until c1980. There is a Stableford-built wagon in Turton Volume 3 – it's also on the cover – one of a batch of 500 built for Manton Colliery in 1923, but not to the new RCH standard.

 

A bit out of time and R-T-R for this thread, but Bachmann offered a Marcroft-liveried PO through their collectors club a few years back, complete with Coalville amongst the locations on the side (the livery is also in the Powsides range)- IIRC the livery is taken from a photo in one of the Bill Hudson PO books.

 

 

I'd never noticed the Manton wagon on the cover of Turton vol 3 was a Stableford! N.W. Leicestershire POs are an interest of mine, and it tends to stretch to wagons from elsewhere that are known to have worked into the Coalville area, so really ought to cover locally-built ones as well - I'll have to see if it's in the Powsides catalogue

 

Well, that's one can look at without searching for a second-hand copy of the book! They were clearly geared up for volume production, anyway. The photo is evidently a Stableford official, which leaves one wondering if it's a chance survival or whether there's a local museum holding an archive.

 

According to the caption in the book, it's from the Ian Pope collection. As wagonman suggests, it seems to be a rare survivor -the caption describes it as 'one of the very few official images from that builder known to have survived'

 

If you look at maps, the wagon works stretched to both sides of the line, so a pretty substantial operation: http://maps.nls.uk/view/101592348

 

There isn't a local museum as such in Coalville since the Snibston Discovery Park closed a couple of years back- I don't recall them having much, if anything, on display in relation to Stableford

Edited March 10, 2018 by Invicta

[Brassey]

Somewhat late but here is my outside frame mink.  This was built in the 80's and the only wagon I finished to this level with decals.  It has since been updated with grease axleboxes and couplings but I will have to live with the solebars.  The roof has come loose and the brake levers are broken off.  I have no idea where the buffers came from but they are solid brass.

 

 

 

[Compound2632]

How did you arrive at the number, 26984?

[Brassey]

How did you arrive at the number, 26984?

 

I don't recall but the decals may well have come with the kit as it looks like one complete decal.  I would never have got individual numbers that straight!  They could have been from another kit, possibly coopercraft.  Back then in the pre-internet days research was a lot harder so it is highly unlikely that it was an informed decision.

 

This is the only shot I have of one of these (at Craven Arms) and the number is nothing like:

 

Edited March 11, 2018 by Brassey

[wagonman]

Oddly enough the Gospel according to Atkins et al is silent on the matter of old wooden Mink numbering. This is odd as there is extensive information on the pre-diagram opens of similar vintage. Photographic evidence points to several numbers in the 2xxxx range though I've not found 26984, yet.

[Nick Holliday]

Does anyone have a suggestion of an intro book into PO wagons which would be helpful for understanding my period interest - the Peak District Midland 1902.

 

This request has been prompted by the discussions above around the Ince Wagon works book.

 

I am looking for something which might give an overview to the subject and would thus give me an entry into the much more detailed surveys that are available. Ie what companies were out there ... how did the whole business work and evolve ...Is there a company(s) which might have been more prevalent than others during my period and in my area ....  what changes should one be aware of etc etc.

 

I am aware of the Turton and Hudson series - these are good visual sources but there is an element of looking for a needle in a haystack about them when starting from a position of ignorance and from a beginners perspective. As an example, apart from discussions here and elsewhere I have no detailed knowledge relating to dumb buffers etc ... or how legislation changed over time.

 

Any thoughts, guidance, suggestions much appreciated.

As you have intimated the main series of books tend to concentrate on the individual operators, rather than providing an overview, and there isn't really one volume that can provide all the information you're after. However, there are three books that have taken a more generic approach, but sadly all are out of print, and subsequently almost impossible to find at a sensible price, although likely to turn up at exhibitions at a more affordable price.

The first one, and still fairly cheaply available is Peter Matthew's MAP paperback. I consider he was responsible for keeping the PO flag flying with his regular contributions to Model Railway News, and this book provides a good summary of the subject, albeit not without mistakes, such as placing Royston Colliery in Hertfordshire!

More comprehensive is Bill Hudson's final volume, No. 5, which followed a different format from his main series, and again provides a more detailed overview of the topic, published by Oakwood Press in 1996 and in their latest format, it seems to have slipped off their new publisher's list, and is only available at inflated prices.

Even rarer are Len Tavender's books, Coal Trades Wagons in particular containing masses of information, but which I find rather indigestible in places and random in content, but if your particular interest is covered then you're laughing! The best feature is the number of scale drawings, and the way it goes back to the origins of the wagons, whereas most of the more photographic surveys tend to start in the 1880's or later.

As for your query regarding whether particular builders were associated with areas, this may be true for the smaller builders, but the big ones had very active sales teams who travels the length of the U.K. to sell their wares, so that products from Charles Roberts in Horwich, or Hurst, Nelson from Glasgow could be seen with PO liveries from Sussex and Kent. Distance would be no object if a bargain was available, and there was also the second hand trade - a large proportion of PO wagons were on hire or leased, and when the contract periods were completed, many would be offered in trade magazines.

What you need to do is find someone, perhaps a club or library, near you that has a good collection of the various books which would allow you to browse so you can cherry pick what you need.

[Compound2632]

I don't recall but the decals may well have come with the kit as it looks like one complete decal.  I would never have got individual numbers that straight!  They could have been from another kit, possibly coopercraft.  Back then in the pre-internet days research was a lot harder so it is highly unlikely that it was an informed decision.

 

This is the only shot I have of one of these (at Craven Arms) and the number is nothing like:

 

Craven_arms002.jpg

 

Could be 32375? But this doesn't seem likely on other grounds...

 

Oddly enough the Gospel according to Atkins et al is silent on the matter of old wooden Mink numbering. This is odd as there is extensive information on the pre-diagram opens of similar vintage. Photographic evidence points to several numbers in the 2xxxx range though I've not found 26984, yet.

 

... I had a good look at the number lists in Atkins when I numbered by wood mink back in the autumn - I found some ranges that are at least possible and at best probably not allocated to other wagons. I even went as far as drawing up a reference table. Looking up 32375, it's not positively assigned to another wagon but the 32xxx series is otherwise all diagram J8 or J9 timber trucks. If I could believe it is 37375, that would fit nicely with a couple of other known numbers in the 37xxx series: Nos. 37608 onwards were the second lot of V6 iron minks, so that does seem to be a covered goods wagon block.

 

The 26xxx series is all cattle wagons but two known numbers in the 27xxx series are a wood mink and a cattle wagon, so there could be other wood minks in the 26xxx series - 26984 isn't actually positively identified as a cattle wagon, I think.

 

I would be surprised if the Kirk kit came with transfers, from what Ian has said about its origin as a grounded body kit.

 

It's a black art...

 

EDIT: I went to some trouble to look for suitable numbers for my Great Western red wagons. Rather than letting it molder on my hard drive, I've attached a pdf here in the hope it might be of use to others. Please bear in mind that it was done for my own use and that I was focusing on ordinary open and covered wagons (Os and Vs) - which after all made up the overwhelming majority of wagons at my date of interest. I did also look in detail at numbers for diagrams which are just a bit too late for my period but for which I do have examples built from Coopercraft kits in my youth (N13, O2). Any questions or comments are very welcome!

 

Atkins et al wagon numbers up to c1905.pdf

 

EDIT: Thanks to those who have downloaded and thanked! - much appreciated.

Edited March 11, 2018 by Compound2632

[John_Miles]

In response to Nick Haliday's post above, I have a Gloucester publication which gives the location of all their outstations and agents. I had always thought that Gloucester was a national concern but they were mainly concentrated in the South West and South Wales. Their coverage of areas north of Brum was very thin.

[Penlan]

....... EDIT: I went to some trouble to look for suitable numbers for my Great Western red wagons. Rather than letting it molder on my hard drive, I've attached a pdf here in the hope it might be of use to others. 

Many thanks, very useful.

In the Welsh Railways Research Circle Archives there are very detailed listings for each company of their stock taken over by the GWR in 1922/3.

Some of the Vans were ex. GWR,  there are a few wooden bodied vans from Lot 291, numbers in the range 37168, 37197 and 37058 ....Lot 261, 35215. Lot 282, 35537,  Lot, 252, 8105 (just the 4 digits in the list)

I'm sure these details are from the extensive notes on all the Welsh pre-grouping Companies by Robin Simmonds, but I had extracted details from the notes long ago, thus, as always, all E. & O.E.

Robin had spent a lot of time and done a lot of work on these records from/at Kew (presumably)

Edited March 11, 2018 by Penlan

[Compound2632]

In response to Nick Haliday's post above, I have a Gloucester publication which gives the location of all their outstations and agents. I had always thought that Gloucester was a national concern but they were mainly concentrated in the South West and South Wales. Their coverage of areas north of Brum was very thin.

 

There's a photo of Wigston c. 1905 that was discussed much earlier in this thread in relation to the indeterminacy of Midland wagon lead grey. A number of wagon firms' huts are visible, each with a board on the roof, one of which says "Gloster". I presume these huts were where their local wagon repairers were based; would hey have held a stock of common fittings such as springs and bearings? There was a substantial Midland wagon repair depot there, so it seems that Wigston might be the local concentration point for cripples.

[wagonman]

Could be 32375? But this doesn't seem likely on other grounds...

 

 

... I had a good look at the number lists in Atkins when I numbered by wood mink back in the autumn - I found some ranges that are at least possible and at best probably not allocated to other wagons. I even went as far as drawing up a reference table. Looking up 32375, it's not positively assigned to another wagon but the 32xxx series is otherwise all diagram J8 or J9 timber trucks. If I could believe it is 37375, that would fit nicely with a couple of other known numbers in the 37xxx series: Nos. 37608 onwards were the second lot of V6 iron minks, so that does seem to be a covered goods wagon block.

 

The 26xxx series is all cattle wagons but two known numbers in the 27xxx series are a wood mink and a cattle wagon, so there could be other wood minks in the 26xxx series - 26984 isn't actually positively identified as a cattle wagon, I think.

 

I would be surprised if the Kirk kit came with transfers, from what Ian has said about its origin as a grounded body kit.

 

It's a black art...

 

EDIT: I went to some trouble to look for suitable numbers for my Great Western red wagons. Rather than letting it molder on my hard drive, I've attached a pdf here in the hope it might be of use to others. Please bear in mind that it was done for my own use and that I was focusing on ordinary open and covered wagons (Os and Vs) - which after all made up the overwhelming majority of wagons at my date of interest. I did also look in detail at numbers for diagrams which are just a bit too late for my period but for which I do have examples built from Coopercraft kits in my youth (N13, O2). Any questions or comments are very welcome!

 

Atkins et al wagon numbers up to c1905.pdf

 

EDIT: Thanks to those who have downloaded and thanked! - much appreciated.

 

 

 

Yes indeed, very useful, thank you. Let's see if we can't increase the numbers of old wooden Minks!

Edited March 12, 2018 by wagonman

[John_Miles]

There's a photo of Wigston c. 1905 that was discussed much earlier in this thread in relation to the indeterminacy of Midland wagon lead grey. A number of wagon firms' huts are visible, each with a board on the roof, one of which says "Gloster". I presume these huts were where their local wagon repairers were based; would hey have held a stock of common fittings such as springs and bearings? There was a substantial Midland wagon repair depot there, so it seems that Wigston might be the local concentration point for cripples.

 

Gloucester or Glocester apparently used agents in many places rather than having their own repair facility.  The Gloucester book I have is a 1905 diary and for Wigston it says that the agent is Mr H. Betton. He appears to cover an area which extends as far south as Wellingborough, Kettering but not Bedford - all based on his Wigston facility. Going north he covers Leicester, Loughborough and Syston. Ullesthorpe, on the Rugby line is not within his domain and the advice for there is to contact Gloucester themselves..

[wagonman]

Gloucester or Glocester apparently used agents in many places rather than having their own repair facility.  The Gloucester book I have is a 1905 diary and for Wigston it says that the agent is Mr H. Betton. He appears to cover an area which extends as far south as Wellingborough, Kettering but not Bedford - all based on his Wigston facility. Going north he covers Leicester, Loughborough and Syston. Ullesthorpe, on the Rugby line is not within his domain and the advice for there is to contact Gloucester themselves..

 

 

It's perhaps worth mentioning that after 1918 it was all Wagon Repairs Ltd – most of the big guys, including Gloucester and the British Wagon Co, merged their repair facilities.