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More Pre-Grouping Wagons in 4mm - the D299 appreciation thread.


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On ‎08‎/‎08‎/‎2019 at 10:46, Compound2632 said:

I have a question in return for you, David,. If you have Hawkins & Reeve, there's a photo on p.7, of Derby No. 3 shed, with a couple of Johnson engines in "early" condition: 890 Class 2-4-0 No. 131 with the original style of splashers, except that the splasher fronts are solid rather than having the pair of cut-outs, Johnson boiler and a Kirtley tender; and  1532 Class 0-4-4T No. 1720 (captioned as 0-6-0T) - a condensing engine with flared bunker and weatherboards rather than an enclosed cab. No sign of M R initials on tender or tank sides, though the sans-serif initials are on their (front) buffer beams. Both engines have built-up chimneys and boilers with clack valves on the sides of the forward ring, No. 131 also has a valve on the side of the smokebox with what looks like a small handweel. The photo is credited to J.B. Radford's collection. Can you date it? 

 

 

Stephen,

 

Now I'm back from Fraggle Rock, in answer to your query I agree with Adrian about the tank engine and evidence of the 2-4-0 would seem to reinforce his estimate of summer 1885. No. 131 is shown in the condition in which it was rebuilt with a Johnson P boiler in December 1878 but with a few subtle alterations. First of all, although it was most likely rebuilt with slotted splashers, in the photograph it has solid sided ones, still with the long, box-type covers for the coupling rods, of the type that were fitted to the last six ‘890’ Class when built at Derby but not seen on earlier engines until, as far as I am aware, until about 1884 or 1885. Also, its boiler handrail was in one piece, which again I think was an 1885 innovation for these engines. That it wasn’t much later than that is suggested by the old style front fall plate, the type of dome cover and safety valve funnel and the presence of a Roscoe lubricator on the smokebox (the valve with the small handwheel later moved into the cab). The presence of the engine at Derby would not necessarily indicate that it was stationed there, although it may well have been by 1885, but as a Bedford locomotive (which the only surviving records indicate it was before going to Derby) it would have been repaired there.

 

Overall, therefore, my assessment is that Adrian’s estimate of summer 1885 is very probably correct. Sorry I can’t be more definite but I’d probably risk a 50p bet on it.

 

Edited by Dave Hunt
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Dave, thanks - that blows a hole in my pet theory or timeline for the subtle changes in D299 design! I'd formed the impression that the centre vertical washer plate on the end was a feature of wagons built in the early-mid 1890s; after the adoption of the Ellis 10A axlebox. This wagon must be from one of the first two lots, Lot 82 ordered on 1 Oct 1882 or Lot 115 of 27 May 1884, both for 2,000 wagons, as the next lot, Lot 135, wasn't ordered until 15 Sept 1885. The wagon has the 21" M R initials; according to Midland Style these were first introduced for bought up PO wagons in the early 1880s: "This practice was expended to open goods wagons in the middle 1880s". This would be consistent with this photographic evidence; the initials were applied to at least some of Lot 115 almost certainly from new; possibly all this lot, may be even Lot 82?

 

I would discount this wagon being one of the proto-D299 wagons of Lot 29 of 1879 as the double V-hanger is characteristic of D299 and the photo of a Lot 29 wagon in Midland Wagons shows no centre end washer plate. Also I'd very much doubt it's an ex-PO wagon - it doesn't look antique enough.

 

Miss Prism, there was a recent revival of discussion on an old thread of Mikkel's about a M&SWJR open he built; are you confusing that with his build of an S&DJR Road Van? 

 

I was thinking a bit more about the Sharnbrook accident. There's the point that the move from down goods to down passenger involved setting back on to the up passenger line, owing to the avoidance of facing points - though there was a facing connection from the up goods to up passenger. I don't have the relevant distance diagram book for this section of the Midland and so haven't checked where the nearest double junctions between goods and passenger lines were. There was the characteristic reluctance to compromise the high-speed nature of the passenger lines by too frequent facing functions.

 

The other point that I've been reflecting on is that the crossing of the down goods from the goods to passenger lines was made entirely on signalman Alfred Robins' initiative, based, one supposes, on his 21 years' experience at Sharnbrook Junction box. There was no consultation with the neighbouring boxes or with any higher authority, though there was a telephone circuit - maybe there was some reluctance to use it? Driver Alcock had no prior notice of Robins' intentions, and, indeed, was left to work them out for himself. In later years such a decision would have been made by the District control office but in 1909 Guy Granet and Cecil Paget's train control system had evidently not yet extended so far south.

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13 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

Miss Prism, there was a recent revival of discussion on an old thread of Mikkel's about a M&SWJR open he built; are you confusing that with his build of an S&DJR Road Van?

 

Thanks for the thought, but no, I had already looked there. I think I had ticked 'like', but unfortunately the 'activity' list in my profile only goes back a couple of weeks.

 

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3 hours ago, Miss Prism said:

 

Thanks for the thought, but no, I had already looked there. I think I had ticked 'like', but unfortunately the 'activity' list in my profile only goes back a couple of weeks.

 

 

Let me know if you find it, as it sounds interesting.

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On 02/08/2019 at 21:57, Compound2632 said:

Curiously, the words STORES SLEEPERS appear, which weren't on the old pressfix sheet

 

Which was an annoying discovery as I'd just finished a scratchbuild of a sleeper wagon and had to make up the STORES SLEEPERS lettering from bits of place names off the HMRS LMS sheet, and then I bought a few new Slaters kits. 

 

Oh well - I suppose I'll just have to make some more sleeper wagons now!  

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9 minutes ago, sharris said:

 

Which was an annoying discovery as I'd just finished a scratchbuild of a sleeper wagon and had to make up the STORES SLEEPERS lettering from bits of place names off the HMRS LMS sheet, and then I bought a few new Slaters kits. 

 

Oh well - I suppose I'll just have to make some more sleeper wagons now!  

 

Actually my feeling is the STORES SLEEPERS lettering on the new Slaters sheet is a bit weedy; the version on the HMRS LMS English constiuents pre-grouping (except LNWR) sheet is better-nourished.

Edited by Compound2632
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Over on the topic on the forthcoming Model Rail LBSCR E1 0-6-0T, a selection of photos from the Mike Morant collection has been linked to by @GreenGiraffe22. This one caught my eye. As usual with photos of this period, some commonplace locomotive obscures the item of real interest - in this case a Midland D299 wagon with an unusual marking on the right-hand end of the bottom plank. I believe it reads: TO BE RETURNED TO LONDON. This is only the second instance of instructions of this sort I've come across on a D299 - the other being on the wagons fitted with sheet rails that were discussed a couple of years ago; it was established, thanks to @Western Star, that these wagons were most likely associated with spelter (zinc alloy) traffic. The wagon in this photo doesn't have any visible modification. It's got 8A axleboxes, marking it out as from the 1880s/ very early 1890s.

 

So, I'm wondering what traffic originating in London required dedicated D299 wagons? As I understand it, the northern lines into London generally had a net flow of goods traffic (ignoring minerals) into London, with a substantial fraction of wagons working back north empty, so this wagon would have been going against the flow.

 

The photo is said to be at Three Bridges and, going by the lettering on the locomotive, after 1911. This suggests that the return instruction no longer applies; the photo could well be post-Great War, and the wagon pooled.

 

EDIT: Could be 1921 - take at the same time as this photo? That might be another D299 on the left - the buffer guides look right.

Edited by Compound2632
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Some modelling, for a change. After various off-wagon experiments with Posca pens, I chickened out on hand-lettering the first Cheshire Lines wagon and bought a couple of sheets of HMRS Pressfix PO wagon lettering (unshaded). The smallest size – 1.3 mm, or scale 4”, is as near as I’m likely to get to the prototype, where the company name and number are a bit under one plank high. The “non-condensed” style of letters are about the right width.

 

For the CHESHIRE LINES wording, I started out with the C and S at the ends and worked inwards a pair of letters at a time until I got to the second H and the L, then added IRE from left to right. The first attempt has ended up with a bit of sag in CHESHIRE:

 

84320285_CLCD5offsidelettering.JPG.71a342136d93d5aaf41a89c4f1d58b03.JPG

 

LINES has come out a bit widely-spaced so the gap is a bit too far to the left but at least there is a gap! The photo shows the second digit of the number aligned with the axlebox, so I’ve followed that.

 

The second attempt, on the brake side, came out a bit straighter, though LINES is even more spread out and I had to re-do the final S as it sat too high:

 

1818894760_CLCD5nearsidelettering.JPG.ed251c63311ea82b2660da6407db212c.JPG

 

The letters could really have done with being a weeny bit bigger, around 5” (1.7 mm), but the next size up on the HMRS sheets is 2.2 mm (6½”) which would be too big. The next problem is that for the remainder of the lettering, I need the next size down from the smallest size on the HMRS sheet…

 

Can anyone tell me the height of the block lettering alphabets on the HMRS 4mm scale commuted charge / load / tare sheet? This wagon is going to end up costing more in transfers than in brass!

 

This wagon is riddled with compromises. I’ve chosen to make it CLC diagram D5, i.e. one of the batch built by the Gloucester C&W Co. in 1895/6. I’ve done this on account of the livery. If the livery style followed the MS&L / Great Central in changing from small letters to big serif initials when or soon after the MS&L changed its identity in 1897, then the later batches built by Ashburys in 1899/1900 would have the initials. Wagons from the Cravens batch of 1891/2 might well have been repainted in the new style by my c. 1902 date. It seems to me that there’s a reasonable chance a wagon built in 1896 might not have been in for a full overhaul and repaint by 1902. (There was also a batch built at Gorton in 1896. The information on numbering in Tatlow is confusing – only a 10 number range is given for the Gloucester wagons, though 110 were built; it’s not clear whether the number range 2300-99 applies to the Cravens wagons of 1891/2 or the Gorton wagons of 1896 – it clearly can’t be both.) Having chosen a Gloucester wagon, the model is wrong in having washer plates on the solebar – the Gloucester solebars are flitched – and there’s other solebar furniture etched on, most noticeably the numberplate. I’ve also just realised that the axleboxes are a GCR oil type, whereas for my period they should be round-bottomed grease boxes.

 

But heck, when did you last see a model of a CLC wagon in this livery?

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I bought two different sheets of unshaded lettering, so have:

  • 7.3 mm = 22", approx 3 planks (for typical PO wagon plank heights).
  • 5.6 mm = 17", approx 2.5 planks
  • 4.0 mm = 12", just under 2 planks
  • 2.2 mm = 6.5", about 1 plank
  • 1.3 mm - 4".

I can see uses all these sizes on PO wagons I have in mind. I assume the artwork is the same for the shaded lettering - 5.6 mm + shading will be about 3 planks high and 4 mm plus shading 2 planks. Some thought by the designer clearly went into choosing these sizes. There are also sheets with 12.8 mm, 9.9 mm, 7.0 mm, 3.8 mm and 2.3 mm lettering. I haven't done the maths but I suspect some of these are geared towards 7 mm scale modellers.

 

I see the Scottish pre-grouping sheet has some block letter LOAD 10 TONS that might be suitable; that or the LMS pre-grouping (except LNWR) sheet can probably supply CLC and the number and tare for the solebar. 

 

I wouldn't want to be trying this letter-by-letter method at anything smaller than 1 mm; I'll take my hat off to anyone doing this in 2 mm scale!

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3 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

I wouldn't want to be trying this letter-by-letter method at anything smaller than 1 mm; I'll take my hat off to anyone doing this in 2 mm scale!

 

Yes. The fox sheets for 2mm GWR wagons have the numbers individually compared with modelmasters where there are some made up numbers also. Rather fiddly doing them individually and 4 times per wagon since they should also be on the ends. Sadly there are no condensed numbers to fit Opens B (the number was off to one side and there is less space between the corner plate and end stanchion than between the end stanchions) or lettering for Ventilated (Van), which some of the available bodies would qualify for. 

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1 hour ago, richbrummitt said:

 

Yes. The fox sheets for 2mm GWR wagons have the numbers individually compared with modelmasters where there are some made up numbers also. Rather fiddly doing them individually and 4 times per wagon since they should also be on the ends. Sadly there are no condensed numbers to fit Opens B (the number was off to one side and there is less space between the corner plate and end stanchion than between the end stanchions) or lettering for Ventilated (Van), which some of the available bodies would qualify for. 

 

I had Fox do me some "Ventilated Van" lettering in 4mm scale and also the early style of Not Common User lettering. They could do it in 2mm scale for you.

 

Regards,

 

Craig W

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8 hours ago, richbrummitt said:

 

Yes. The fox sheets for 2mm GWR wagons have the numbers individually compared with modelmasters where there are some made up numbers also. Rather fiddly doing them individually and 4 times per wagon since they should also be on the ends. 

 

Hat duly raised. The rub-down BGS Society transfers I used for my red wagons were fiddly enough.

 

16 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

But heck, when did you last see a model of a CLC wagon in this livery?

 

Where's Simon? I was expecting him to post an S-scale example to deflate my hubris.

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Long ago, I used the 'Letraset' sheets numbers/letters at the bottom - the patents etc., for small lettering.

Have the HMRS sheets changed recently because the sheet I have P3S, which I seem to recall was the only PO sheet available at the time, is not shown on https://hmrs.org.uk/transfers.html?p=1  (and 2, 3).  The sheet is approx 450mm wide and there are 6 rows of 10.5mm letters.
Trouble is, my eyesight is now at a point where close work is difficult, let alone small lettering.

 

Edited by Penlan
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10 hours ago, Craigw said:

 

I had Fox do me some "Ventilated Van" lettering in 4mm scale and also the early style of Not Common User lettering. They could do it in 2mm scale for you.

 

Duly noted as would be useful. I just ordered some more numbers since I'm finishing 69997 and 29999 at the moment so have used up all my 6 and 9s!

 

I read, I think in GWR wagon bible, that NCU markings in WWI were two crosses on each side of the wagon but I've never knowingly seen same in pictures. Maybe it didn't last much beyond the war?

 

 

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2 minutes ago, richbrummitt said:

 

Duly noted as would be useful. I just ordered some more numbers since I'm finishing 69997 and 29999 at the moment so have used up all my 6 and 9s!

 

 

I have to say I do try to choose numbers that do have a good mix of digits. Some transfer manufacturers haven't cottoned on to the fact that 1s get used up more than other digits, followed by 2s then 3s... Running out of 9s is a bit exceptional!

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13 minutes ago, richbrummitt said:

 

Duly noted as would be useful. I just ordered some more numbers since I'm finishing 69997 and 29999 at the moment so have used up all my 6 and 9s!

 

I read, I think in GWR wagon bible, that NCU markings in WWI were two crosses on each side of the wagon but I've never knowingly seen same in pictures. Maybe it didn't last much beyond the war?

 

 

 

Rich,

 

I have attached a quick Iphone photo of the transfers that I had commissioned by Fox. The standard sheet they produce does not fit the Parkside vans and I had to fudge and cut letters out so I had them produce sheets with Ventilated and Ventilated van. I model the early 1920s (just pre-grouping!)  and at this time there were two Non common user brandings in used. The lower one is the earliest and was in use during WW1.

 

Regards,

 

Craig

 

IMG_E8076.JPG

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54 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

I have to say I do try to choose numbers that do have a good mix of digits. Some transfer manufacturers haven't cottoned on to the fact that 1s get used up more than other digits, followed by 2s then 3s... Running out of 9s is a bit exceptional!

 

Agreed and normally I'd try to make the best use of a sheet. I decided to build a few of the large bogie Mink Fs. These were numbered 69996 - 67000 plus a couple extra numbers. 29999 is a known example of a clasp braked wagon, which I also fancied doing so 16 9s required just for that wagon! 

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1 hour ago, Craigw said:

I have attached a quick Iphone photo of the transfers that I had commissioned by Fox. The standard sheet they produce does not fit the Parkside vans and I had to fudge and cut letters out so I had them produce sheets with Ventilated and Ventilated van. I model the early 1920s (just pre-grouping!)  and at this time there were two Non common user brandings in used.

 

Their script lettering is just a bit long for the resin 16' Minks the 2mm association have done. They're possibly good for 17'6" length ones. 

 

I model the exact same period so these would be perfect if Fox will reduce and they fit! I've emailed them and await a response. 

 

I'll let the thread back to it's 4mm contributors now. Thank you all for tolerating a diversion/hijack.

Edited by richbrummitt
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I liked the Ratio LNWR numbers (etc) transfer sheet as it had a line of correctly spaced random numbers to choose from.
I made a listing of them and keep a file of those I've used, include cut and 'paste'.
I have 85 LNWR wagons on the layout  :wacko:

Edited by Penlan
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I've tried the 5.6 mm PO letters out as an alternative for the Midland ballast wagons - no go:

 

1728618406_MidlandD305EDPOtransfersnogood.JPG.aec9b0a90065cd1116a0381874fcd67e.JPG

 

(PO on the right). Those will be coming off. I'm hoping these will be staying on:

 

1275010719_MidlandD299withendstrapWIP4.JPG.a82fb17187262e7cbd7beba4e20523eb.JPG

 

It was over a year ago I first tried to reproduce the D299 variant with central end strapping. The Archer resin bolt head transfers fell off the bare microstrip. In the intervening months I did at least give the wagon a coat of grey primer. So, finally, a second attempt with the resin transfers. I've put this at the back of the cupboard to set for at least 24 hours, per the instructions. One thing that may well help is getting the transfers the right way up...

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More lettering:

 

1409905119_LBSCOpenAHBD13lettering.JPG.e4cf234baee154832223b902f7dd77e5.JPG

 

The Brighton Open A is lettered using POWSides rub-down transfers – sheet ID 461. I described my method with these when lettering my Huntley & Palmers wagons but that was a good while ago, so to recap: I use some low-tack tape (WHS “Invisible Tape” that I’ve had for ages) to carry the cut-out transfer and then hold it in place on the wagon side. This gives some opportunity for adjustment and holds the transfer in place while doing the final rub-down with a blunt pencil.

 

The livery is intended to be that used from c. 1895 to c. 1903, when the Y was discontinued. There are very few photos of wagons in this style in Southern Wagons so I’ve had to follow my nose. There are also only two photos of Open As of this pre-1898 type, without diagonal ironwork : plate 17, from 1882, with self-contained buffers; and plate 8 (LH wagon), c. 1920, with, I think, replacement buffers, as per my model – both photos two decades away from my c. 1902 period! Some Open As of later build have numbers in the 5xxx range but I’ve been guided by plate17, No. 6627, to the extent of picking a 6xxx number – 6448 being a ready-made sequence on the transfer sheet. The tare weight of 5-14-0 supplied on the sheet matches a later Open A with sheet rail and conventional single sided brakes (plate 22) so might be a tad on the high side. It ought to be repeated in smaller figures on the solebar…

 

The Hull & Barnsley D13 covered goods wagon is lettered using the 2.2 mm transfers from the HMRS Pressfix PO wagon alphabets – very slightly oversize. These are not exactly right – the shape of the J is certainly wrong – so I’m considering this as an experiment for now. There should also be lettering between the vertical framing: To Carry 10 Tons at the LH end and Tare 5_19_1 at the RH end – these are in the same script style as used on my Great Western red wagons (for which I used a rub-down sheet from the BGS) but there’s even less space than on the iron mink. This lettering style is the original 1885 fashion – No. 463 being one of the Brown, Marshalls vehicles supplied for the opening of the line. I’m probably pushing it to have this livery c. 1902 – the large H&BR lettering seems to have come in in the late 1890s; an official photo of a Hurst, Nelson built ventilated covered goods wagon of 1897 has the large letters.

 

To prepare the painted surface, I used my latest find, Humbrol Clear gloss varnish, applied with a brush. Before that, I had to tidy up the grey paintwork after picking out the ironwork in black. That was when I realised I’d failed to keep a note of the shade of grey used for each wagon… After some careful colour matching, I can record that the H&B wagon is in Humbrol matt 64, which to my eye makes a good general-purpose light lead grey, a bit lighter than the Precision LMS freight stock grey I use as my ex-works Midland grey. For the Brighton wagon, I’ve used a very old tin of Humbrol HR 107 – from their railway colours series of many years ago. I think this is the tin I used for GWR wagons in my teens! It needed a spot of thinners to bring it back to life but is otherwise in good nick. Annoyingly, I’ve not been able to work out what I used for the CLC wagon, which has a hint of green.

 

I’m planning to draw up numberplates in CorelDraw. The oval Brighton plates are said to have been blue in the Stroudley livery but the sources are silent on the later livery. Both wagons lack some other finishing details – a roof for the H&B wagon; brake lever and end braces for the Brighton wagon.

Edited by Compound2632
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A supplementary question for Brighton enthusiasts, following on from the numberplate colour query. In a number of early 20th century photos in Southern Wagons Vol. 2, there's a rectangular panel fixed to the bottom plank below the wagon number. This appears very light in colour, which suggests it's not for chalk shunter's marks. Any suggestions as to how these were used?

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