More Pre-Grouping Wagons in 4mm - the D299 appreciation thread.

[Northroader]

Looking good to me, but there should be more on the go than that, and I don’t understand why you’re able to produce them all for a group photo, the other day I found a 2-4-0T chassis I’d forgotten about totally.

Edited October 22, 2019 by Northroader

[Compound2632]

1 minute ago, Northroader said:

Looking good to me, but there should be more on the go than that, and I don’t understand why you’re able to produce them all for a group photo, the other day I found a 2-4-0T chassis I’d forgotten about totally.

 

That was only current work-in-progress in the Earley Railway Carriage & Wagon Co.'s wagon department. If you must, here's a glimpse of some ongoing work in the carriage department:

 

 

As for the loco works!

[Ruston]

Can you please tell me from where you got the transfers for the round-ended LBSC wagon? I have one built and painted but it's got no further for lack of lettering.

[Compound2632]

1 hour ago, Ruston said:

Can you please tell me from where you got the transfers for the round-ended LBSC wagon? I have one built and painted but it's got no further for lack of lettering.

 

@Ruston, they're POWSides.

Edited October 22, 2019 by Compound2632

[Compound2632]

Some progress on lettering. About two years ago I built a Great Western pre-Iron Mink outside framed covered goods wagon from an ancient Kirk kit I was given. At the time, I delved into Great Western wagon numbering with the help of A.G. Atkins et al., GWR Goods Wagons (3e, Tourret Publishing, 1998) and photos from a variety of sources. I had been rather mystified by the limited information on these wagons in Atkins, becoming convinced that there must have been more lots than the ones listed. Nevertheless, I had inferred that some of these vehicles were numbered in blocks in the 22xxx and 37xxx series and numbered my wagon 22378, Tare 6.4.2. Recently, @2996 Victor started a topic raising exactly the questions that had been bugging me when I built my wagon:

 

 

@2996 Victor added some numbers for the 13 wagons of this type transferred to the R&SBR, which drew a contribution from @Penrhos1920, giving full lot and nearly complete numbering detail for over 1,500 wagons of this type. @Mikkel followed this up with the same list from the instructions for the David Geen kit. This confirmed my hunch about the 37xxx series and also revealed a large block of numbers in the 35xxx series but also showed that numbering in the 22xxx series was not continuous; in particular, the number I’d chosen was not one of those listed. Also, the tare weight I’d chosen was anomalous – most were around 5.14. I’ve updated my list, attached here:

 

Atkins et al wagon numbers up to c1905.pdf

 

I’ve renumbered my model as No. 22598 of old series Lot 321, changing the tare weight to 5.14.1:

 

 

It was easiest to change digits in the middle of the number, as they are furthest from the framing. Next time I do a batch of weathering, the new numbers will need the treatment to tone them down.

 

While I had the BGS rub-down transfers out, I added the tare weight and load lettering for the Hull & Barnsley D13 covered goods wagon, as these are in the same script style. Getting To Carry 10 Tons in between the framing involved some fudging, just as it had on my Iron Minks:

 

 

At the same time I got out the HMRS PO wagon lettering sheet to do the company branding and running number on the second side; on both sides I have an “improved J”. The J on the HMRS sheet is too narrow, with a too pronounced hook shape. My wider J uses the top half of a G, rotated through 180°, along with half an I. The C would do just as well but having already used two, there were more Gs to spare on the sheet. I’ve also added my home-made solebar number plates. The positioning of these is compromised by some of the solebar ironwork being in the wrong place, which I hadn’t noticed when building the wagon. Now I can’t put off doing the roof! I’ve also noticed that I’ve missed the safety loops for the brake push rods, etches for which are in the kit.

 

Having got into the swing of Pressfixing, I went back to the CLC D5 three-plank open wagon. Here my favourite sheet “LMS English pre-Grouping goods vehicle insignia (except LNWR)” came to my aid for the solebar lettering. LOCO COAL HORWICH contributed CLC. (I had to dig into HORWICH as I messed up one of the LOCO COAL Cs!) The numbers came from some tare weight digits in the NLR corner of the sheet. My reference photo for this wagon shows a vehicle with iron flitch plates to the solebars; the Mousa kit is for a version without these, so I’ve had to work round and ignore some of the etched solebar detail, including the GC numberplate. LOAD 10 TONS came from my stock of Pressfix sheets from Slaters Midland wagon kits – many of which have, sadly, lost their tackiness, so MicroSet and much patience have been applied:

 

 

I’m not quite happy with the HMRS PO wagon transfers used for the running number on the bodyside – it looks a bit too compressed.

 

I took my Great Western red wagons along to the club last night for a photography session on one of the layouts currently under development, Erlegh Quay:

 

 

The hall has some wall-mounted electric bar radiant heaters that are responsible for the sunset glow!

 

[2996 Victor]

Hi Stephen,

 

I must say that, as always, your wagons are exemplary! The Red Rake looks excellent.

 

Our recent thread on the GWR outside-framed vans has spurred me on a little bit, such that I've actually taken out my David Geen kits and unpacked them. I could really do with some of the BGS transfers, as the majority of manufacturers seem to add one set of "G.W.R" among a multitiude of 25 inch and 16 inch "GW"s, but they seem to be out of stock at present which would be a bit of a stumbling block if built things more quickly!

 

Incidentally, I've started assembling my first-ever Slater's D299! Don't get too excited, though - being a Somerset lad, it'll be finished as one of Highbridge's finest!

 

All the best,

 

Mark

[Compound2632]

1 hour ago, 2996 Victor said:

Incidentally, I've started assembling my first-ever Slater's D299! Don't get too excited, though - being a Somerset lad, it'll be finished as one of Highbridge's finest!

 

 

One here:

 

 

Do you have Russ Garner's S&DJR Registers? A good proportion of the running numbers for these wagons are known, though there are some variations to watch out for, such as round ends with wooden sheet bar. Let me know if you decide on any particular numbers:

 

 

... easy enough to edit in CorelDraw.

[2996 Victor]

1 hour ago, Compound2632 said:

 

One here:

 

 

Do you have Russ Garner's S&DJR Registers? A good proportion of the running numbers for these wagons are known, though there are some variations to watch out for, such as round ends with wooden sheet bar. Let me know if you decide on any particular numbers:

 

 

... easy enough to edit in CorelDraw.

 

Hi Stephen,

 

many thanks - yes, I'd seen your S&D version, which jogged my memory and prompted me to dig out "Highbridge in its Heyday" by Colin Maggs. I haven't decided on a number as yet and, despite following your "how to" guide and taking particular care in the side/end/solebar assembly as you advised, I've managed to get the floor on a slight tilt, so that the solebars are shallower at one end than the other Annoyed doesn't come close..... Living relatively close to the Slater's factory now, I'm wondering if they have a sales counter..... 

 

I've got a copy of Russ Garner's book on order, hopefully it'll arrive soon. I had thought about either No.173 or No.174. The former is just visible in a photo of the S.S. Alpha at Highbridge Wharf - clear enough to be identified but not clear enough to see its minute details (!), while the latter has a well-known portrait. The Highbridge signwriter's "7" is quite distinctive, so I'd like one numbered appropriately (was there a No.177? Presumably, Russ Garner has the answer).

 

The lack of interior detail in the kit is a bit irritating, as are the sink marks, but I was planning to run it loaded. So while I decide whether to plough on or start again, I might instead try to put together a 3-plank drop-side. No.647 is a possible candidate, as is No.676 ("To Work Between Highbridge Wharf And Burnham"), or No.649.

 

I don't have CorelDraw, unfortunately - I used to prefer Corel WordPerfect to Microsoft Word, but of course Bill Gates has taken over the World.

 

All the best,

 

Mark

Edited October 30, 2019 by 2996 Victor
Typos

[Compound2632]

9 minutes ago, 2996 Victor said:

I don't have CorelDraw, unfortunately - I used to prefer Corel WordPerfect to Microsoft Word, but of course Bill Gates has taken over the World.

 

 

It would be a moment's work for me to edit my CorelDraw file to produce the numbers you want, then save as jpeg.

 

The Slaters kit is of its age - 1970s I believe, originating with the need for wagons for the seminal P4 layout Heckmondwyke. To my minds its qualities outweigh its drawbacks. Here's one that has been making glacial progress through the works, thanks to the block I hit with the Archer resin rivet (bolthead) transfers, finally resolved a couple of months ago thanks to input from various RMWebbers, whom I thank again:

 

 

 

This is the variant with the additional end vertical ironwork - many were built like this; I've built up a large database of known D299 numbers but unfortunately don't know which were like this. On the Archer resin transfer front, I'm happy now that I can make them stick but conclude that I really need the next size or two up.

 

I'd painted the wagon grey and applied the transfers and home-made numberplate before I realised that I'd forgotten to add the buffer heads with the collars of the buffer guides and also the square door banger plate on the brake side; also I'd forgotten to scrape off the moulded-on builder's plate at the RH end of the solebar, which is in the wrong place. All slightly annoying because I'd mixed a random amount of black into my LMS freight stock grey to simulate aging of the paintwork (reaction of white lead with sulfur dioxde) so will have to try to match that again for touching in!

 

 

 

 

[Compound2632]

4 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

Some progress on lettering.

 

I forgot to point out the common theme of dual identity linking the three wagons in this post:

 

The Great Western outside-framed van is very similar to the Great Eastern covered goods wagons built, I believe, after Holden moved from Swindon to Stratford.

 

The Hull & Barnsley D13 covered goods wagon is identical to the contemporary London Chatham and Dover covered goods wagon (later SR Diagram 1423), except for running gear, I think. That's down to William Kirtley's role as locomotive, carriage & wagon consultant to the Hull & Barnsley - a job he owed to the involvement of James Staats Forbes in both companies.

 

The Cheshire Lines D5 wagon is a Manchester Sheffield and Lincolnshire design (Great Central Diagram 6) and in this case the kit intended for the latter.

[2996 Victor]

4 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

It would be a moment's work for me to edit my CorelDraw file to produce the numbers you want, then save as jpeg.

 

The Slaters kit is of its age - 1970s I believe, originating with the need for wagons for the seminal P4 layout Heckmondwyke. To my minds its qualities outweigh its drawbacks. Here's one that has been making glacial progress through the works, thanks to the block I hit with the Archer resin rivet (bolthead) transfers, finally resolved a couple of months ago thanks to input from various RMWebbers, whom I thank again:

 

 

 

This is the variant with the additional end vertical ironwork - many were built like this; I've built up a large database of known D299 numbers but unfortunately don't know which were like this. On the Archer resin transfer front, I'm happy now that I can make them stick but conclude that I really need the next size or two up.

 

I'd painted the wagon grey and applied the transfers and home-made numberplate before I realised that I'd forgotten to add the buffer heads with the collars of the buffer guides and also the square door banger plate on the brake side; also I'd forgotten to scrape off the moulded-on builder's plate at the RH end of the solebar, which is in the wrong place. All slightly annoying because I'd mixed a random amount of black into my LMS freight stock grey to simulate aging of the paintwork (reaction of white lead with sulfur dioxde) so will have to try to match that again for touching in!

 

 

 

 

 

Hi Stephen,

 

many thanks for your very kind offer re the number plates - I shall certainly be taking you up on that! Once I've got my copy of Russ Garner's book, I'll decide on which one I'm going for and I'll be in touch.

 

I agree that the kit is, as you say, of its age, although I hadn't realised they were developed for Heckmondwike. Externally, they stand up very well to scrutiny, although I feel the solebar mouldings are perhaps not as crisp as they were? Nevertheless, they still make up into excellent models. I'm more annoyed with myself than anything about the interior - some Squadron Green and a quick skrawk would have provided a decent interior on which to add the ironwork, but I was in too much of a hurry and thought I'd either load it or sheet it over.

 

I recently acquired the two volumes of Bob (Bon?) Essery's Midland Wagons opus, and to a died-in-the-wool GWR man, its proved most interesting. I think its particularly sobering to consider the number of D299s and variants built: that the Midland stuck with the same basic design proves its worthiness, but also calls into question the need for the infinite number of slightly but fundamentally different designs built by the other companies. Your variant with the additional end ironwork is a prime example of the subtle variations to the basic design that provide added interest. I shall certainly be adding some more to my burgeoning wagon fleet!

 

With regard to the door banger plate, I don't know whether you've noticed, but there are several photos of S&D examples that don't have the plate, and there is a definite indentation where the door has dropped against the wooden stop block*, e.g.

 

http://

 

Oddly, there are also examples with the solebar plate in the location depicted by the Slater's kit!

 

I have yet to try rivet transfers.....

 

Best regards,

 

Mark

 

* EDIT see posts below re position of the dent and the relative length of the stop block.

Edited October 30, 2019 by 2996 Victor

[Compound2632]

The banger plate is supposed to protect the woodwork where the door hits the cross-shaft of the brake gear. On these Highbridge-built variants, the solid wooden doorstop performs that function. I wonder if this was an afterthought and the nice round dent in the door is a relic of door-banging before the stop was added?

[57xx]

2 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

The Slaters kit is of its age - 1970s I believe

 

Aah yes, when I dug out one my kits to build the other week, I was surprised at the complete lack of planking on the floor, so much so I to dig out the D305 I've done previously to check and was then immediately remind of the pain went through scoring the planking in it.

[Compound2632]

Nevertheless we are better off with it than without it. (From the modeller's point of view, not the wallet's.)

[57xx]

Absolutely, and a simple load or tarp can hide a multitude of sins.

[phil_sutters]

1 hour ago, Compound2632 said:

The banger plate is supposed to protect the woodwork where the door hits the cross-shaft of the brake gear. On these Highbridge-built variants, the solid wooden doorstop performs that function. I wonder if this was an afterthought and the nice round dent in the door is a relic of door-banging before the stop was added?

If you look carefully you can see that the lower edge of the frame* is chamfered between the sites of bolts and metal strapping, but is vertical where those fittings are. Where the wooden doorstop meets the frame this area is also not chamfered, which implies that it was part of the original construction. I have a Derby Mechanical Engineers copy of the photo. No 8581, bought from B.R. What a close up also shows are thin vertical lines running down the planking at irregular intervals, but only on the door and the right hand panel. Who knows what they were caused by - an unsuccessful weathering attempt - oh sorry this was the real thing!

*I don't know enough about wagon construction to know whether the section below the planks, to which the door hinges and strapping are attached, is the floor or whether there is a framework to which the floor, sides and ends are attached.

[2996 Victor]

37 minutes ago, phil_sutters said:

If you look carefully you can see that the lower edge of the frame* is chamfered between the sites of bolts and metal strapping, but is vertical where those fittings are. Where the wooden doorstop meets the frame this area is also not chamfered, which implies that it was part of the original construction.

 

I hadn't noticed that, but you're absolutely right. On most wagons, that is the curb rail which is intended to protect the cut ends of the floor planks that would otherwise be exposed to the elements (see later Big Four and BR opens). Agreed that the doorstop is a Highbridge Special and was there from the outset, but as @Compound2632 says, strange that its a small round indentation.

 

Cheers,

 

Mark

[2996 Victor]

1 hour ago, Compound2632 said:

Nevertheless we are better off with it than without it. (From the modeller's point of view, not the wallet's.)

 

£8.90 plus p&p from H&A Models (no connection other than as a satisfied customer), which seems like pretty good value to me! 

[2996 Victor]

 

15 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

The banger plate is supposed to protect the woodwork where the door hits the cross-shaft of the brake gear. On these Highbridge-built variants, the solid wooden doorstop performs that function. I wonder if this was an afterthought and the nice round dent in the door is a relic of door-banging before the stop was added?

 

Agreed. I hadn't actually noticed the shape of the dent compared to the wooden stop block, or that it is higher up the door than the stop block's contact patch. See also @phil_sutters observation of the curb rail. Also, if you look carefully at the photograph of No.141, you can see what looks like a witness mark on the centre of the door's bottom three planks, which would correspond to the door's contact point with the stop block, which stops well short of the dent.

 

Cheers,

 

Mark

Edited October 31, 2019 by 2996 Victor

[Mikkel]

Stephen, what an attractive train of red wagons you have built up. Does anyone at the club have suitable motive power to keep them busy?

[Compound2632]

2 hours ago, phil_sutters said:

If you look carefully you can see that the lower edge of the frame* is chamfered between the sites of bolts and metal strapping, but is vertical where those fittings are. Where the wooden doorstop meets the frame this area is also not chamfered, which implies that it was part of the original construction.

 

I'm afraid that's not conclusive evidence, as that is the location of another of the row of nuts and rods that secure the curb rail to the solebar. According to the Derby drawing, the curb rail is a substantial piece of timber - oak usually - 4.5" tall by 4" wide, rebated to rest on the top corner of the solebar. A row of seven iron rods, threaded on the ends, pass through the curb rails and solebars from one side of the wagon to the other and are secured by nuts on either end. This extract from a copy of drawing 550 in the collection of the Midland Railway Study Centre should make the arrangement clear:

 

 

The curb rail serves several functions. It holds the floorboards in place. The door hinges are attached to it. It provides a support for the side-planks (sheeting), although they are primarily held in place by the side knees - very substantial L-shaped pieces of iron, the profile of which can be seen dotted at floor plank level. 

 

I suspect that the Highbridge-style door stop is bolted to the solebar, not the curb rail.

 

Another Highbridge variation is the long brake lever - perhaps more leverage was thought an advantage in braking trains over the Mendips. Then there's the sheet rail too...

 

No. 141 has the 8A grease axleboxes used on new construction up to the early 1890s, when the Ellis 10A grease axlebox came into use. The Slaters kit has the 10A axleboxes; both types can be found on S&DJR wagons.

 

Edited October 30, 2019 by Compound2632

[Compound2632]

7 minutes ago, Mikkel said:

Stephen, what an attractive train of red wagons you have built up. Does anyone at the club have suitable motive power to keep them busy?

 

No; as you know, I am (notionally) working on that. Erlegh Quay has been to a couple of exhibitions as a work-in-progress when it has been run as BR(W) 1950s, with mostly RTR stock provided by the project leader.

[Mikkel]

Ah ok, I was hoping for a photo of red GWR wagons behind a Midland loco - although perhaps all that red would be a bit too much of a good thing!

 

13 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

One here:

 

 

 

I've been browsing this picture as if it were a photo of a prototype goods yard! Is there a particular plan behind the different approaches to interiors (weathered/unweathered?).

[Compound2632]

2 hours ago, Mikkel said:

I've been browsing this picture as if it were a photo of a prototype goods yard! Is there a particular plan behind the different approaches to interiors (weathered/unweathered?).

 

No. It simply represents my progress as a modeller, along with a view to eventual loading - coal in many cases. I'm sure you'll have noted that I've mostly fudged the question of interiors by taking most photos from roughly the height of a scale person standing at the lineside.

 

Thinking of interiors, if scribing the Slaters D299 floor, there are a couple of points to bear in mind: the planking doesn't go right to the edge - allow about 0.5 mm for the width of the curb rail - and also the wagon has bottom doors with longitudinal planking - check out the drawing I linked to for full details. I'm not sure if Highbridge wagons had the bottom doors - I can't see any sign of the release lever but it's pretty hard to spot on Midland wagons. That photo of No. 141 has had the relevant area whited out by the photographer. At first I thought they'd been over-zealous and taken out the brake pushrod safety loops but they're also missing from a photo of No. 174 - also has 8A axleboxes - but No. 210 has them - 10A axleboxes. Not sure if there's a correlation there. [C.G. Maggs, Highbridge in its Heyday (Oakwood Press, 1986) Plates 70-72.]

 

Don't get too carried away though. They forgot to scribe the floor planks on this 3-plank dropside:

 

 

NRM DY 11331, released under the Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-ShareAlike (CC BY-NC-SA 3.0) licence by the National Railway Museum.

[Worsdell forever]

Just wondering if this is a D299 with the slightly unconventional load? I know it's in a strange modern livery but it would mean I could have another running at Rosedale, this time legitimately.