More Pre-Grouping Wagons in 4mm - the D299 appreciation thread.

[Mikkel]

Thanks Stephen, I must experiment with photographic paper.  Should work for enamel signs too I suppose. 

[Compound2632]

Some more progress on the Stephenson Clarke wagons. They're now painted and lettered but still await brake gear and levers - the former needs some fettling now that I've put the wheels back in after painting; the latter I've left off to avoid bending when the wagon is on its side for lettering and also so that it can be painted separately for a neater finish. 

 

 

The painting sequence has been:

• Halfords grey primer
• Humbrol No. 33 matt black for the ironwork
• Precision GWR Indian red for the corner plates
• Precision MR freight wagon grey, thinned, for the woodwork - a nonsense for Midland wagons but the greenish-slate hue seems to me right for the reported colour of Stephenson Clarke wagons
• Touch up the black and overpaint the indian red with thinned Humbrol No. 100 red brown, since the Indian red looked far too dark and chocolaty
• Second round of the so-called MR grey
• Humbrol gloss varnish, brushed on where the transfers are to go
• transfers
• Humbrol matt varnish, from their rattle can.

The two thinned washes of grey give, I hope, a suitably worn look to the paintwork. They also help distress the black ironwork.

 

The transfers are POWSides. I had bought a couple of sets of each of No. 345, which is clearly designed for the Gloucester RC&W Co batch of the turn-of-the-century, Nos. 3501-4000 (I wonder if they were commissioned by Martin Finney) and No. 74, which I suspect was designed for this dumb-buffer wagon kit. No. 345 has the lettering printed directly with the black shading; with No. 74, the black shading has to be applied separately. Naturally I started with No. 345! Each sheet has enough end lettering for two wagons, which is just as well as I got through three lots doing two wagons:

 

 

No. 345 has oodles of the digits 0, 3, and 6, none at all of 2, 5, 7, and 9, twelve 1s and six 4s. I was committed to doing wagon No. 1414, which can be seen in the Huntley & Palmers photo, in the rear of sprung-buffered wagon No. 2168:

 

 

[Crop from a photograph in the Huntley & Palmers Collection, Reading Museum, which, as I've mentioned before, is certainly not 1920, probably 1890s.]

 

The number of the third wagon is obscured by grime. It's clearly of the same type. @wagonman identified No. 1414 as being from a batch of 601 wagons supplied by Harrison & Camm in late 1887/early 1888, and registered with the Great Western. These were probably the last dumb-buffered wagons supplied to Stephenson Clarke, since from around this date new construction had to conform to the RCH 1887 specification, i.e. sprung buffers. Many of these were numbered in the 14xx series, which would be slightly awkward as I'd used up most of my 4s! However, some were numbered in the high 200s, so from the numbers wagonman supplied, I picked 298 and tried out the two-part digits from sheet No. 74. I could have used 8s from sheet No. 345 but the spirit of adventure was upon me. There are only four 8s on this sheet; I made a hash of one, so one of the 8s (on the end not in the photo!) was cobbled together from two 3s. 

 

The POWSides rub-down transfers aren't the easiest to use. I cut the piece I want from the sheet with a sharp craft knife, taking care not to apply pressure to the transfer itself. I then use low-tack tape to help manoeuvre the transfer into place and hold it while the transfer is firmly rubbed down. After that, I give the transfer a rub with the piece of brown paper supplied. Car has to be taken not to get the low-tack tape into contact with a transfer already applied, as it will lift it. I illustrated this technique when I built my Huntley & Palmers wagons some time ago:

 

 

From what I've read, there's some doubt about when the Indian red corner plates came in. My impression from the photos I've seen is that they are a different shade to black on at least Harrison & Camm-built No. 1006, photographed by Gloucester RC&W Co., and the wagons in their batch:

 

 

 

Anyway, red corner plates are different and interesting; also it was "educational" to try out the Precision GW Indian red...

 

Now I'm off to the NEC for the afternoon, as a punter, and Sunday morning, doing my turn on the Midland Railway Society stand. Then back in Reading by 3 pm for a school concert.

 

 

 

Edited September 3, 2022 by Compound2632
Images re-inserted

[Mikkel]

 Very nice, and good to see the Huntley & Palmers theme developing.

 

You'll have to design a track plan that allows us to see 298 and 1414 end-on! (have I said that before? As our RMWeb histories drag on we begin to repeat ourselves!).

[Compound2632]

On 23/11/2019 at 11:40, Mikkel said:

 Very nice, and good to see the Huntley & Palmers theme developing.

 

You'll have to design a track plan that allows us to see 298 and 1414 end-on! (have I said that before? As our RMWeb histories drag on we begin to repeat ourselves!).

 

Each wagon will be posed on its own wagon turntable with an animated 4 mm scale figure cranking the capstan - or may a horse.

[Compound2632]

On 23/11/2019 at 11:40, Mikkel said:

 Very nice, and good to see the Huntley & Palmers theme developing.

 

You'll have to design a track plan that allows us to see 298 and 1414 end-on! (have I said that before? As our RMWeb histories drag on we begin to repeat ourselves!).

 

Each wagon will be posed on its own wagon turntable with an animated 4 mm scale figure cranking the capstan - or maybe a horse.

Edited November 24, 2019 by Compound2632

[Annie]

Do horses need to be cranked?  Sounds....... awkward.....

[Mikkel]

7 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

Each wagon will be posed on its own wagon turntable with an animated 4 mm scale figure cranking the capstan - or maybe a horse.

 

Of course, we expect nothing less 

 

Actually, a turntable layout would be a nice way to exhibit a wagon collection. Apologies for the LNWR bias here:

https://www.warwickshirerailways.com/lms/lnwra3641.htm

https://www.warwickshirerailways.com/lms/lnwrcs1498.htm

https://www.warwickshirerailways.com/lms/lnwrcs1498a.htm

[Compound2632]

6 hours ago, Annie said:

Do horses need to be cranked?  Sounds....... awkward.....

 

That sentence is ambiguous. Of course I'd meant that there would be a horse working the crank.

 

I'd had a beer after a long day.

Edited November 25, 2019 by Compound2632

[richbrummitt]

3 hours ago, Mikkel said:

 

Of course, we expect nothing less 

 

Actually, a turntable layout would be a nice way to exhibit a wagon collection. Apologies for the LNWR bias here:

https://www.warwickshirerailways.com/lms/lnwra3641.htm

https://www.warwickshirerailways.com/lms/lnwrcs1498.htm

https://www.warwickshirerailways.com/lms/lnwrcs1498a.htm

 

Absolutely. You wouldn't necessarily need an engine either. The rather more difficult problem of getting our miniature railway people and horses to work for their keep would need an answer though! 

[Compound2632]

True, a LNWR goods yard would be ideal - that company making very extensive use of wagon turntables, whereas they were rather unusual on the Midland. I do have one pencilled in on my Huntley & Palmers plan, though the real factory only had one that I can find, and that tucked away down by the saw mill. Mine would be at the corner of a warehouse, for loading, so not where the coal deliveries would come.

[Mikkel]

1 hour ago, Compound2632 said:

True, a LNWR goods yard would be ideal - that company making very extensive use of wagon turntables, whereas they were rather unusual on the Midland.

 

Company differences are always interesting. I wonder what caused the LNWR preference for wagon turntables, e.g. any particular traffic situation, or just company culture.

 

4 hours ago, richbrummitt said:

Absolutely. You wouldn't necessarily need an engine either. The rather more difficult problem of getting our miniature railway people and horses to work for their keep would need an answer though! 

 

I would be prepared to accept the shunter and horse just standing by in a static pose. The wagons could be motorized, if I remember correctly that has been shown on here once or twice. Capstan shunting using real rope/chain has also been tried of course, though with mixed results in my opinion. There is the problem of slack. I don't think Chris Nevard will mind me using his video to deomnstrate it - given his choice of music 

 

 

[Compound2632]

I have faux-hydraulic or electric capstan operation in mind. 

 

 

 

Note how the capstan rope (not chain, except at the end) is hooked onto an axleguard, not the drawhook or the horse-hook, and is also used to pull the turntable round.

[Regularity]

14 minutes ago, Mikkel said:

Company differences are always interesting. I wonder what caused the LNWR preference for wagon turntables, e.g. any particular traffic situation, or just company culture.

One can’t ignore the fact that the various antecedents of the LNWR were true pioneers of inter-city railways, when horses were very common in goods yards. The facility to take sidings off at any angle, with just (originally) a turning plate and no point work would make for a very dense arrangement of tracks in a goods yard. 
also, early LNWR vans had a door on one side only, so a way of getting them turned 180 degrees was essential!

[2996 Victor]

1 hour ago, Compound2632 said:

I have faux-hydraulic or electric capstan operation in mind. 

 

 

 

Note how the capstan rope (not chain, except at the end) is hooked onto an axleguard, not the drawhook or the horse-hook, and is also used to pull the turntable round.

 

Not sure I'd have liked to be the man unhooking the cable from a moving wagon, though, but the use of the "trailing" axleguard to turn the turntables is fascinating. Presumably, there is a degree of gradient on the sidings to enable the wagons to run freely? The grooves worn into the capstan(s) were noteworthy, too.

 

I shall look forward to seeing what you can come up with!

 

Cheers,

 

Mark

[Compound2632]

Just now, 2996 Victor said:

 

Presumably, there is a degree of gradient on the sidings to enable the wagons to run freely?

 

I would assume it's level. The wagons we see have oil axleboxes - grease axleboxes would be stiffer when cold, though the use of powered capstans goes back well before oil axleboxes became commonplace.

 

2 minutes ago, 2996 Victor said:

 

I shall look forward to seeing what you can come up with!

 

 

It's a thought experiment at the moment.

[Penlan]

Back on topic (and Rly Company)

On one of the S/H stands* at Warley NEC - on Sunday, around 2pm, there was stack (6) of Slaters D299 kits at £10 each (I think).
I didn't buy any, even if I thought I could 'move them on', as I have a lot of half built kits already, attracting unfavourable comments from the rest of the household.
They are out there Compound2632, just need to locate them.
* It may have been 'Hobday', but I have a mind it was another stall.

Edited November 25, 2019 by Penlan

[Compound2632]

I saw them and passed on. I do have quite a few to process. They were tempting as having the Pressfix transfer sheets, though I've found quite a few of my old ones have lost their tack despite careful airtight storage. One can get the re-issued kit, with waterslide transfers, for £9 or less.

 

The same stand - W M Collectables I think - had a box of ancient Ian Kirk and Colin Ashby kits but not ones I was tempted by. I did very nearly go for a David Geen whitemetal Great Western outside-framed van. They also had several D&S kits for NER bogie carriages at £50 each which seemed to me not unreasonable pricing.

Edited November 25, 2019 by Compound2632

[Compound2632]

I cannot go to an exhibition without coming away with a wagon kit:

 

 

Unfortunately this wagon is a bit after my favoured c. 1902 period:

 

On 20/11/2019 at 12:10, Compound2632 said:

That brings me round to the question of further Brighton vehicles. I’ve the cattle van to finish – needs re-doing in most areas, I’ve concluded – and I’ve been eyeing up the SEF Billinton brake van kit. The two opens are both Stroudley vehicles. I’ve been thinking about the Cambrian kit C33, which is intended to represent wagons built from 1912 onwards, SR Diagram 1369. This has the same basic body dimensions as wagons built 1896-1904, SR diagrams 1370 and 1371, although these have 3” longer wheelbase. If one was prepared to ignore that, one might get away with passing the kit off as the wood-framed diagram 1370, especially if one went for the wooden sheet rail. 

 

Undaunted:

 

 

• Wheelbase increased by 3 inches (0.04" Evergreen strip subsequently inserted; the solebar having been cut at the position of one of the doorstops)
• Axleboxes trimmed down and bodged up to represent grease rather than oil ones
• Outside brake V-hanger removed
• Sheet rail boss removed, 0.04" x 0.03" wood (Evergreen strip) bar in lieu
• Circular sheet tie bosses removed
• Chalk board at LH bottom of side

... yielding an Open A of 1898-1904 (SR diagram 1370):

 

 

The brake V-hanger has had its edges thinned by scrawking (the axleguards are molded that way) and the brake gear has been stretched - the push rods were cut off the tumbler in turn and moved out by 0.5 mm each. The sheet bar is 0.04" x 0.03" Evergreen strip, with 0.03" x 0.01" laminated on top to give the impression of a rounded profile (and also because I haven't got any 0.04" square). MekPak worked well with the Cambrian kit components and with the strip-to-strip bonds but I've had real difficulty getting a bond between the strip and the kit components - after several attempts, I used cyano to fix the sheet bar in place. 

 

My references for this build are Southern Wagons Vol. 2 Fig. 5 and Plate 22. The line drawing shows a wagon with wooden sheet rail and Scotch brake; the plate illustrates No. 5751, with sheet rail and conventional double brakes, though with the single V-hanger attached behind the solebar. My model is a composite of the two, so I'm hoping for the best. No. 5751 was built in 1902 and has a paint date of 9/11/07; it has three cleats attached to the underside of the curb rail, to which the sheet ties would be lashed. The photos showing the circular cleats on the bodyside are all of wagons in late LBSC / SR days, so I suspect these were added after my period. As to brakes, whilst there is a photo of an 1899-built wagon with Scotch brake (Plate 24), the list of sample numbers (p. 24) includes a couple of 1898-built examples with double brakes; of course it's possible this was a later modification.

Edited September 6, 2022 by Compound2632
Images re-inserted

[Rail-Online]

Hi,

 

Sorry to hijack this thread but do any of you wagon guys know where there is a pic of the prototype of the Oxford Rail T Bowler wagon?  I know several of the Oxford rail wagons are dreadful representations of the real things and before I buy one of these I would like to know.  I cannot find it on the index of PO books in another thread.  Here is what the model looks like, it is pure RCH 1923 but refers to the LSWR station but that is not necessarily incorrect

 

Tony

[Dave Hunt]

On ‎26‎/‎11‎/‎2019 at 14:15, Compound2632 said:

• MekPak worked well with the Cambrian kit components and with the strip-to-strip bonds but I've had real difficulty getting a bond between the strip and the kit components - after several attempts, I used cyano to fix the sheet bar in place. 

 

Try Plastic Weld Stephen

[2996 Victor]

32 minutes ago, Dave Hunt said:

 

Try Plastic Weld Stephen

 

Plastic Weld is vicious stuff! I don't use it for normal construction any more, but it's good for bonding dissimilar plastics - just don't be too generous with it!

[Compound2632]

4 hours ago, Rail-Online said:

Hi,

 

Sorry to hijack this thread but do any of you wagon guys know where there is a pic of the prototype of the Oxford Rail T Bowler wagon?  I know several of the Oxford rail wagons are dreadful representations of the real things and before I buy one of these I would like to know.  I cannot find it on the index of PO books in another thread.  Here is what the model looks like, it is pure RCH 1923 but refers to the LSWR station but that is not necessarily incorrect

 

Tony

 

It's the Load 10 Tons that gives it away as a pre-RCH 1923 spec wagon.

 

There doesn't seem to be an HMRS photo either. POWSides No. 584 is for this trader, similar livery but wagon No. 1, and described as 6-plank side and end door, unknown maker. The mushroom-shaped plate on the solebar is a Wagon Repairs Limited plate like this one. Wagon Repairs Ltd came into existence in March 1918, being a consolidation of the repair operations of the major wagon building and hiring companies - Chas. Roberts, Gloucester, Metropolitan, Hurst Nelson, etc. 

 

Might it be worth asking Oxford what their reference was?

 

 

Edited November 27, 2019 by Compound2632

[wagonman]

As a pre-1923 built wagon it should have grease axle boxes rather than the oil 'boxes fitted. I doubt it is, like most RTR jobs, a particularly accurate model!

[Compound2632]

35 minutes ago, wagonman said:

As a pre-1923 built wagon it should have grease axle boxes rather than the oil 'boxes fitted. I doubt it is, like most RTR jobs, a particularly accurate model!

 

I think that was a given in @Rail-Online's post. The question was rather, what real wagon is this livery taken from? Presumably that nicely-printed registration plate says L&SWR?

 

The wagon is a reasonable representation of an RCH 1923 specification 12 ton 5-plank wagon; the livery is presumably a reasonable representation (barring stretched dimensions) of a livery applied to an RCH 1907 specification 10 ton 5-plank wagon. It's like painting a BR Mk 1 carriage chocolate and cream and calling it Great Western. 

 

I imagine that Oxford were a bit stretched to find appropriate liveries for an RCH 1923 5-plank wagon - they don't seem to be overly common.

Edited November 28, 2019 by Compound2632

[wagonman]

3 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

I imagine that Oxford were a bit stretched to find appropriate liveries for an RCH 1923 5-plank wagon - they don't seem to be overly common.

 

Plenty of them in the Somerset road stone trade! Well, quite a few anyway.