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Compound2632

More Pre-Grouping Wagons in 4mm - the D299 appreciation thread.

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5 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

Some interesting unloading going on (or rather left half-done).

 

Yes, the extensive used of straw is interesting, I've seen it before of course but not this much. Of course, you can't see it under a sheeted model wagon anyway.

 

4 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

Lovely ground detail though. I defy any P4 or S7 modellers to fill up their flangeways quite as much as the line in the foreground!

 

 

The ground detail is the reason I'm currently searching through the Getty files, trying to see how common it was for cartage to cross the rail lines. More common than I thought, it seems.

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Isn't that the SECR van, to the left of the LMS wagon, that Rails of Sheffield have just produced?

Birkenhead Dock photo RMweb.jpg

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I think so. I've now spotted another wagon in LMS livery; this one's had a full repaint, by the look of it.

 

The contrast between this photo, with a mix of opens of different dimensions and origins, contrasts tellingly with the 1893 photo with its serried ranks of identical NER 4-plank opens. Pre-Great War, pre-pooling, whatever company you model, at least 30%, maybe as much as 50%, of your goods stock should be that company's standard open wagon. It's a mistake to think pre-grouping modelling gives greater colour, interest, and variety. If you want that, the early 20s are the place to be!

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15 hours ago, Brassey said:

And not forgetting the glorious Coal Engine at the front of the train.  Look at the sheen on the boiler on a humble goods engine; but not so on the tender:

 

Coal_Engine_at_Bushey.jpg.2c592d2f33a7e91b481e37a1bbb2f20d.jpg

Oooooo LNWR two plank wagons with diamonds.  Nice.

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8 hours ago, Annie said:

Oooooo LNWR two plank wagons with diamonds.  Nice.

 

302336488_LNWD12D2.JPG.9a3aee2b520a603e3fa9d4cae78ba932.JPG

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On 01/01/2020 at 23:27, phil_sutters said:

Isn't that the SECR van, to the left of the LMS wagon, that Rails of Sheffield have just produced?

Birkenhead Dock photo RMweb.jpg

Almost. It looks like the early form of D1424, from one of the first two batches, because it has Laycock vents. The Rails ones are models of the third batch, which had eros vents when built. If you look very closely at the photo, you can make out the mutated brake levers these vans had from new.

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in the Birkenhead photo, note how the various crates, boxes, and packages are loaded on the carts with one edge on the side rail, so that they are leaning inwards. Would that be for stability, or to provide a hand-hole for lifting then off the cart?

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1 hour ago, Compound2632 said:

in the Birkenhead photo, note how the various crates, boxes, and packages are loaded on the carts with one edge on the side rail, so that they are leaning inwards. Would that be for stability, or to provide a hand-hole for lifting then off the cart?

I think you're right about stability and hand holds. Also, if you look at the cart with the bales, and the one that's carrying boxes that are all the same, it's likely they are each going to one destination only and the load won't need splitting at different drops. Roping it together is easier if the boxes are all leaning inward - one rope would be all it takes and the rope can't slip down and off with it being wider at the base.

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On 01/01/2020 at 23:38, Compound2632 said:

I think so. I've now spotted another wagon in LMS livery; this one's had a full repaint, by the look of it.

 

The contrast between this photo, with a mix of opens of different dimensions and origins, contrasts tellingly with the 1893 photo with its serried ranks of identical NER 4-plank opens. Pre-Great War, pre-pooling, whatever company you model, at least 30%, maybe as much as 50%, of your goods stock should be that company's standard open wagon. It's a mistake to think pre-grouping modelling gives greater colour, interest, and variety. If you want that, the early 20s are the place to be!

 

They'll all be Diagram C2, but not all identical, the one bottom left (with the little handrail) is a fitted version used for fish traffic before the C1 fish truck was introduced. There's also another bottom right with shaded lettering.

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Pottering on, amongst other slow-moving projects I've made a start on the first of a pair of Mousa Models printed resin Kirtley brake vans, seen here part-assembled:

 

221790190_MidlandKirtleygoodsbrakevanassembly.JPG.449d7ca522797fb28fa32bcebcf5b56a.JPG

 

The kit comes in three main parts: underframe, body, and roof, along with the buffer shanks as a separate print and buffer heads with springs.. The finish of the printed resin is very good, free from the diagonal graininess one sometimes encounters, though there are quite a few bits of support sprue lurking in odd corners that need to be trimmed off. The underframe comes in two versions, EM/P4 and 00 - with the brakes set appropriately; this is the 00 version of course. For the moment, I've left in place the S-shaped pieces between the headstocks and the ends of the footboards, while I'm still working on the model, as the footboards might be a bit exposed without them. I have to confess that the roof was a better curved fit before I degreased it in slightly too warm water...

 

The kit comes with a handy resin printed handrail jig, which I used in conjunction with a piece of 0.020" plasticard to make and fit the handrails:

 

338025247_MidlandKirtleygoodsbrakevanhandrailjig.JPG.3a913758d81116b88fa8bbef3202eb6b.JPG

 

 The kit does include a pair of handrail knobs for the middle of the long handrail, something I didn't discover until groping in the bottom of the box for the buffer shanks by which time I'd made my own from 0.033" brass wire - the handrails are 0.045" wire. The body has dimples for the handrail positions that I drilled out 0.5 mm, fixing the handrails from behind with a touch of cyano.

 

The body is cunningly designed with slots and bars to position and hold the glazing, though I think a cautious spot of glue will be wanted when the time comes:

 

580156284_MidlandKirtleygoodsbrakevandiagonallyoppositedoors.JPG.6ca243bde12f4b376e2cd51ac345bb59.JPG

 

This photo illustrates a point on which I was perturbed - the doors are diagonally placed, i.e. at the right hand end when the van is viewed from either side. Looking at the framing and thinking about the frame timbers of the body, I would have expected that the doors would be directly opposite each other. That sent me looking for photos, of which I know of three, published in various places. Here I link to thumbnail images from the Midland Railway Study Centre catalogue:

 

  1. MRSC Item 60494, Derby, with at least four Kirtley vans but also a couple of the Clayton D390 end verandah vans, so no earlier than c. 1878 but probably not very long after - the carriages are all "early Clayton". Midland Wagons plate 356 is an enlargement from this photo, showing the van immediately to the right of the engine's bufferbeam, said to be M. 43.
  2. MRSC Item 64609, van M. 276, at Derby c. 1892; also Midland Wagons plate 354 - an enlargement from MRSC Item 60498.
  3. MRSC Item 63943 is a version, cropped at the sides, of DY 6376, again ate Derby, c. 1890. An uncropped version appears as Midland Wagons plate 1, an enlargement from this, Midland Wagons plate 355, shows M. 893 with the branding "Otley & Ilkley Branch Only" - the inspiration for @Mrkirtley800's model, a photo of which he posted a good while ago in this thread:

 

 

All these photos - a total of, I think, six vans - show the doors at the right hand end, as does the G. Mackenzie drawing (Midland Wagons fig. 179). I wondered if this was pure chance, having been caught out with my L&Y tintab brake (LRM ex-D&S kit). I'd put the side lamp to the left of the central door on both sides, as that's what all four photos show. @Spitfire2865 pointed out that the internal layout was such that the side lamps were towards one end of the van, i.e. to the left of the door on one side and to the right on the other. Indeed, that this was the case is very clear from the drawings in N. Coates, Lancashire &Yorkshire Wagons Vol. 2; it's a fluke that all four photos show these vehicles from the same side - this is confirmed by the stove pipe being at the right hand end in all of them! However, @billbedford drew my attention to the caption to the Mackenzie drawing, which is based on a photograph of an official drawing dated July 1871. (Where are that photograph and drawing now?) This clearly states that the doors were diagonally opposite. 

 

Some confirmation for this is provided by the superficially similar D747 fitted brake vans similarly had the doors diagonally opposite, according to Midland Wagons Vol. 2 p. 103, but in this case they were at the left hand end. Their drawing, 590 of July 1883, is also not in the Study Centre. One of these appears in a 1906 photo of Gurnos [Miles et al., The Swansea Vale Railway, p. 140]. At first I assumed this was a Kirtley brake van but close inspection reveals features that mark it out as D747 - doors flush with the sides, rather than inset. I don't know of any other photo of these vans.

 

A further question, for my c. 1902 period, is how long these vans remained in traffic? The latest photo is c. 1892. There do not seem to be any surviving records of their construction, which pre-dates the opening of the Litchurch Lane carriage and wagon works. Although the drawing mentioned above dates from 1871, Midland Wagons states that this design was being built in 1870; the first of the Clayton-era end verandah vans were built in 1875. They would thus all have been 27 - 32 years old by 1902 - more than life-expired by the standards of the time - so I may be pushing the boat out here. They must have been quite numerous in the 1880s - the highest number is M. 893, suggesting a stock of brake vans of up to about 900 at the end of Kirtley's time, though that would include ballast brakes and also more antique vans that were rapidly replaced by the Clayton vans, a good number of which took numbers below M. 900.

Edited by Compound2632
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I’ve made one of those, Stephen, mainly in plastic sheet, as you do. Here perched on the Mackenzie drawing. That doesn’t show a stovepipe, which I’ve added centrally, as per photo above. The number is just 2 added to the one in the picture. I would have thought it’s a fairly safe bet they lasted into the 1900s?

B50C63EB-FFFA-4D0A-AC1B-4EA7474D67F0.jpeg.9c9192da1003b5bb7e439958dabdc81c.jpeg

Edited by Northroader
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Handrail jig and glazing supports. Whatever next, instructions? :) 

 

But seriously, that's thoughtful and emphatic kit design. 

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24 minutes ago, Mikkel said:

Whatever next, instructions?

 

Like Jane Austen (paraphrasing Sir Walter Scott), he "does not write for such dull elves as have not a great deal of ingenuity themselves".

 

And now he's gone and done those North British 3 and 4-plank wagons that attracted my notice in the Newcastle Forth Bank photo you showed us recently...

Edited by Compound2632
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Two further photos here (click arrow), but frustratingly small. Haven't been able to find larger versions so far.

 

Forth Bank Goods always looks busy and interesting in photos, imagine spending a day there ca 1900.

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15 minutes ago, Mikkel said:

Two further photos here (click arrow), but frustratingly small. Haven't been able to find larger versions so far.

 

 

I think the first photo shows the same North British 3-plank wagon and Midland D299 open that we see on the left of the Getty photo. The second photo, with the "unpainted" North British wagon, we've seen recently:

 

Handy to have a definite date: 14 Nov 1893, showing that the large NB initials were in use by this date. 

 

What is the wagon just beyond the North British covered goods wagon?

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The fun place to be was Dunston  Staithes, over on the other side of the river. You had a few hopper wagons loaded with coal, and J72 0-6-0t at the back end, setting off on a charge out of the sidings at the bottom, and climbing up a steep incline through a reverse curve on to a high trestle over the river. The stop had to be judged a treat, as there was nothing beyond the buffer stops but a drop into the river. The loco cut off and ran back down, then the hoppers were worked by gravity, to be spotted over the drop, and the doors released. The coal would tumble down into the ships hold, with plenty of dust, then down the Tyne and the east coast, mainly to London power stations.68681D4E-BB0B-41DD-B5BF-915633B51886.jpeg.920bea84833fc49dff91310938e95e83.jpeg

A76A329F-23AC-4071-A5BF-8B01A2357119.jpeg.7b7e91d544edf7fcab0dc9c990e7de75.jpeg

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Impressive.  Anyone up for a bit of modelling over the weekend? :) 

 

I see that the  Dunston staiths were opened in 1893, incidentally the same year as the photos discussed above.  The book 'Carrying Coals to Dunston' looks interesting: https://www.diandsaulbooks.co.uk/carrying-coal-to-dunston---coal-and-the-railway-by-ernest-manns-5045-p.asp

 

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This bending up of handrails got me returning to a long-stalled project, the D382A tariff brake van:

 

236196492_MidlandD382ATariffBrakeVanWIP4.JPG.038fb6f56e42cbb9fca4abc98b81152e.JPG

 

The long handrails turn out to be just half the length of the long handrails on the Kirtley brake van, so could be conveniently bent up using that. For the shorter handrails, I drilled extra 0.5 mm holes in the grooves in the jig. In addition to the handrails, Microstrip has been added for the T-shaped ironwork either side of the top of the doors and also to make a representation of the lamp irons. Some very old plastic rod provided the hinges. The detail I'm most pleased with is the door stops - 0.040" x 0.030" Evergreen strip, stuck narrow side on and filed to shape with a round needle file. This photo cruelly emphasises the slightly wonky cutting-out of the door panelling - it's really not so evident in the flesh. I've also just realised that I need to do the door handle!

 

My reference is an official photo of M. 554 of Lot 263 in Midland Wagons (plate 392); here's a link to a thumbnail of this on the Midland Railway Study Centre website [Study Centre item 64139, a copy of DY 6475].

 

A bit of digging around in the Study Centre catalogue turns up a relevant piece of paperwork  (searching on "tariff" in the category "wagon label"); there are some used examples, three of which are for traffic originating at Bristol and routed via Bath (and hence the S&DJR and LSWR) for stations between Tavistock and Friary (i.e. Plymouth), wagons Nos. 120 (?) and 60, and for stations between Dorchester and Portland, wagon No. 28223. The first two numbers could be tariff brake vans but S&DJR No. 60 was a Road Van (Joint/LSWR-speak for tariff van); No. 28223 can only be a Midland vehicle, possibly a D382 tariff van (a Midland design of 1898 virtually identical to the road vans built at Derby for the S&DJR in 1896), though I had had a theory that these were all numbered in the 116xxx range. Alternatively it could be an ordinary covered goods wagon pressed into tariff traffic use. This label is from 1916, after the S&DJR goods stock had been divided between the Midland and LSWR. In any case, these labels raise an interesting question: were these vans working through to those LSWR destinations, or simply conveying tariff traffic that would be transhipped at Bath and/or Templecombe?

 

The other label in the collection is rather simpler to interpret, being for tariff traffic from Leeds to stations between Skipton and Colne. Unfortunately the wagon number hasn't been entered.

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More brakery, returning to the Brighton theme, and a (to me) new medium. Just received courtesy of @BlueLightning, @Skinnylinny's laser cut kit for a LBSCR Billinton 10 ton brake van - SR Diagram 1568:

 

157258566_LBSCGoodsBrakeSRD1568Linnykitparts.JPG.6e1133a39352164182ecfd86998f81a0.JPG

 

An assembled version can be seen on @AVS1998's workbench:

Looking at the components, being a convinced advocate of mixed media, I'm thinking I'll replace the stepboards with a thinner material and go for some cast whitemetal axleboxes and springs - I'll need to get cast buffers anyway. The axleguards are an unusual shape - the diagonal parts are at a steeper angle and start higher up than is usual, so I'll see how I get on with trying to thin the edges. I'm regarding this as a scratch-aid, which is by no means a criticism of the kit in itself, just my preference.

 

What was that comment about instructionless kits? I've got Bixley et al.Southern Wagons Vol. 2 (OPC, 1985) - a couple of good photos speak just as well.

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Glad it arrived safely Stephen!

 

I shall see what you do before starting work on mine!!

 

Gary

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I've found that a few thin coats of acrylic primer (sprayed) works beautifully to seal and prime the wood. I've not tried a brushed one. 

The fact that Humbrol acrylic grey primer looks a lot like LBSCR lavender grey (at least to me!) is just a bonus!

Incidentally if you find that you break any parts in your experimentation (with thinning the axleguards, for example), drop me a private message, I'd be happy to chuck another couple of bits in the post. Always interested to see what other people make of the kits. The reason there are no instructions is that the kit's not available for general release as I haven't written them yet!

Edited by Skinnylinny
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Having just arrived on this thread from a Midland RM search, I am a little overwhelmed at the knowledge. Similar to Stephen, I have several kits from the 90s to build (MJD and Ratio LMS coaches, Slaters, Parkside and Three Aitch LMS and Midland which I was picking up for a few £££s here and there.

 

In preparation I made a bit of a Grand Tour of the UK over New Year and picked up several books on LMS and Midland mentioned in this thread from SH book shops (even one at the NRM - who knew?) and find the whole subject fascinating. I should say I have been an LNER follower for years, but having travelled as a child from Leeds to Burton in the early 60s, and distant but clear memories of Burton Station, its all rather close to home (my parents came from Burton and I assumed every town in England had as many railway crossings as BoT did!

 

Anyway a couple of quick questions if I may:

 

Who makes the most wagon kits for Midland - Slaters?

Who provides the most Midland and LMS transfers?

Who might make a kit of the Midland Brake vans 20t and 40t if poss

Does anyone make the LMS 20T coke Hopper apart from Three Aitch

 

Thanks in advance

Paul

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Having just arrived on this thread from a Midland RM search, I am a little overwhelmed at the knowledge. Similar to Stephen, I have several kits from the 90s to build (MAJ and Ratio LMS coaches, Slaters, Parkside and Three Aitch LMS and Midland which I was picking up for a few £££s here and there.

 

In preparation I made a bit of a Grand Tour of the UK over New Year and picked up several books on LMS and Midland mentioned in this thread from SH book shops (even one at the NRM - who knew?) and find the whole subject fascinating. I should say I have been an LNER follower for years, but having travelled as a child from Leeds to Burton in the early 60s, and distant but clear memories of Burton Station, its all rather close to home (my parents came from Burton and I assumed every town in England had as many railway crossings as BoT did!

 

Anyway a couple of quick questions if I may:

 

Who makes the most wagon kits for Midland - Slaters?

Who provides the most Midland and LMS transfers?

Who might make a kit of the Midland Brake vans 20t and 40t if poss

Does anyone make the LMS 20T coke Hopper apart from Three Aitch

 

Thanks in advance

Paul

Edited by reddo

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18 minutes ago, reddo said:

Who makes the most wagon kits for Midland - Slaters?

 

Slaters - 10 : Mousa - 12

 

Though Slaters make all the common ones

 

18 minutes ago, reddo said:

Who might make a kit of the Midland Brake vans 20t and 40t if poss

 

Did the Midland have 40t brakes?

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