Pete 75C Posted July 23, 2016 Share Posted July 23, 2016 A modelling question if I may, directed at those of you with layouts in Spain. A little N gauge layout of mine needs to be rebuilt here in England, but ultimately it's destined to live in a typical Spanish block/render garage attached to the main house, about 10 miles inland from Benidorm. Now, I can imagine some extremes of temperature in this location. I'm thinking of using 18mm ply ripped into 70mm sections for the framing and possibly 12mm ply for the top. Totally ignorant of whether this would be the best material to use? Also the garage (shown below) needs a little work to make it comfortable to use as a workshop/layout room. Is there anything I need to do to make sure the environment is suitable? I'm sure there are pitfalls here, and if any of you have "been there, done that", advice would be appreciated, hopefully avoiding the layout becoming banana-shaped. Pete. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bike2steam Posted July 23, 2016 Share Posted July 23, 2016 Given the possible temperature fluctuation in that area, I'd go for 'plywood beam' construction, with diagonal strengtheners(?) to help keep the shape. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
PatB Posted July 23, 2016 Share Posted July 23, 2016 I agree with the use of plywood. Here in WA we see regular 40+ summer temps, and frosts in winter. Whilst I haven't built a layout here yet, I have had to make other structures and good quality ply intelligently used remains as stable as you can reasonably expect to achieve in all conditions. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted July 23, 2016 Share Posted July 23, 2016 I'd go for 'plywood beam' construction, with diagonal strengtheners(?) to help keep the shape. Is that where two thinner (say 6mm) ply beams are spaced by occasional softwood packers? Not built a baseboard that way before, so will need to research. The diagonal bracing makes sense too. Thanks. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted July 23, 2016 RMweb Gold Share Posted July 23, 2016 Is that where two thinner (say 6mm) ply beams are spaced by occasional softwood packers? Not built a baseboard that way before, so will need to research. The diagonal bracing makes sense too. Thanks. I found some years ago when making the 'beams' that I needed to be very careful to avoid them coming out with a curve in them. Probably due to my cack-handed carpentry non-skills or possibly due to the way I cramped them up in the Workmate as I put the beams together - especially as nobody else ever seems to have reported similar problems. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bike2steam Posted July 23, 2016 Share Posted July 23, 2016 Is that where two thinner (say 6mm) ply beams are spaced by occasional softwood packers? Not built a baseboard that way before, so will need to research. The diagonal bracing makes sense too. Thanks. That's exactly it, the diagonal bracing ( that's the word I was thinking of ? ) helps to prevent warping, and is about the most rigid light-weight design. Best to make up a construction jig first to make sure all is straight, and square. As in the pics of our clubs latest project 'Bailey gate'.http://www.newblandfordrailwayclub.co.uk/bailey%20gate.html Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Mallard60022 Posted July 23, 2016 RMweb Premium Share Posted July 23, 2016 If it is a go nowhere except the garage layout, How about using Insulation with a Ply frame. Been discussed many times elsewhere si i won't woffle on here. Insulation boards should not 'move' at all as it is designed not to. Just a thought. Phil Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted July 23, 2016 Share Posted July 23, 2016 I found some years ago when making the 'beams' that I needed to be very careful to avoid them coming out with a curve in them. Probably due to my cack-handed carpentry non-skills or possibly due to the way I cramped them up in the Workmate as I put the beams together - especially as nobody else ever seems to have reported similar problems. Mike - take heart, as it's incredibly easy to end up with a banana when laminating timber. I needed a curved backscene some years ago, and I wanted it to hold its shape without being forced into place. 3 strips of thin 2mm MDF were laminated in an elaborate clamp setup. It worked a treat and held an arc when the clamps were released. It was easier than I thought, which leads me to think that once you start glueing (gluing?) thin stripwood together, any misalignment before tightening the clamps will lead to unintentional warping. If it is a go nowhere except the garage layout, How about using Insulation with a Ply frame. Been discussed many times elsewhere si i won't woffle on here. Insulation boards should not 'move' at all as it is designed not to. Just a thought. Phil The only thing that puts me off (well, two things) is unfamiliarity with the material. I'm much more used to working with timber/MDF/ply! The other thing is that the completed (or part-completed) layout will need to survive a 1200 mile road trip in the back of a Transit van. I guess I could make up some "coffin boxes" for secure transport but Knaufboard and other insulation is fragile - I'd just be worried about damage. Paul - thanks for the link. I'll definitely consider beam construction with diagonals. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Mallard60022 Posted July 23, 2016 RMweb Premium Share Posted July 23, 2016 Mike - take heart, as it's incredibly easy to end up with a banana when laminating timber. I needed a curved backscene some years ago, and I wanted it to hold its shape without being forced into place. 3 strips of thin 2mm MDF were laminated in an elaborate clamp setup. It worked a treat and held an arc when the clamps were released. It was easier than I thought, which leads me to think that once you start glueing (gluing?) thin stripwood together, any misalignment before tightening the clamps will lead to unintentional warping. The only thing that puts me off (well, two things) is unfamiliarity with the material. I'm much more used to working with timber/MDF/ply! The other thing is that the completed (or part-completed) layout will need to survive a 1200 mile road trip in the back of a Transit van. I guess I could make up some "coffin boxes" for secure transport but Knaufboard and other insulation is fragile - I'd just be worried about damage. Paul - thanks for the link. I'll definitely consider beam construction with diagonals. Ah, didn't realise it was going to travel. That's a different ball game. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bike2steam Posted July 23, 2016 Share Posted July 23, 2016 If it is a go nowhere except the garage layout, How about using Insulation with a Ply frame. Phil Phil, I certainly wouldn't use insulation, especially if the Spanish location is up in the mountains to the north of the coast where it can get quite cold, and damp in the winter, and the garage is not 'super' insulated. Keep to a plywood top. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted July 23, 2016 Share Posted July 23, 2016 The garage isn't insulated at all, although it will be by the time I've finished with it. I'm hoping to achieve the "warm in the winter" and "cool in the summer" environment to make it comfortable all year round. It's an odd location, 10 miles inland from Sin City, otherwise known as Benidorm (below). I'm just back from there and the temperature on the coast was nudging 40 degrees. The house is at about 150m above sea level, so you could say it's in the foothills. Go 10 miles further inland from the house and snow is not unknown (photo below taken near Guadalest), although admittedly you've climbed up to about 900m into the mountains by then. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelly Posted July 23, 2016 Share Posted July 23, 2016 You can protect the insulation board with thin ply on the edges, which you'd be best to do anyway. Good luck with it! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Mallard60022 Posted July 23, 2016 RMweb Premium Share Posted July 23, 2016 You can protect the insulation board with thin ply on the edges, which you'd be best to do anyway. Good luck with it! Think I said that. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted July 24, 2016 Share Posted July 24, 2016 Thanks for all the tips, guys. A quick scribble, and I came up with this... two boards 1800 x 450mm joined along their longest length to produce a layout 1800 x 900mm (or approx. 6ft x 3ft). The front (scenic) board built on a 50mm ply frame and the rear (non-scenic) board built on a 90mm ply frame. Simply because the scenic section will be on a raised embankment and I need to build the track "up". The end view shows how everything will sit on a pair of trestles. As the layout is not meant to leave the garage (once in Spain), I could make everything on a huge single 1800 x 900mm board but I'm thinking about the initial transport. Two 1800 x 450mm boards will be easier to carry and pack into the van. Thoughts more than welcome! I guess the design of the baseboard is every bit as important as the materials used as I'd hate the whole thing to go "twisty" in the heat. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium skipepsi Posted July 24, 2016 RMweb Premium Share Posted July 24, 2016 I would suggest more or wider blocks in the cross members than shown and are you fitting point motors or servos in the scenic section above the base level or below it? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Stubby47 Posted July 24, 2016 RMweb Gold Share Posted July 24, 2016 Spoke to Dad this morning. He moved a layout from North Wales to El Campello, east of Alicante. It was 2x1 softwood frame with a chipboard top. Their new house had an underground garage which was quite cool even in August, so he didn't experience any board movement at all. They've since moved back to N Wales, and although the boards now have a ply top, the frames are the original ones. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted July 24, 2016 Share Posted July 24, 2016 I would suggest more or wider blocks in the cross members than shown and are you fitting point motors or servos in the scenic section above the base level or below it? It will have bigger blocks than shown Mick. I just got lazy when drawing it up in PSP! The whole scenic section is just a single track main line running alongside a beach - no points at all. The only points will be in the fiddle yard so tempted just to go for 6 above-board mounted solenoids for simplicity. Edit: 6 solenoids are what the layout has already, but I just want to rebuild it and make a few changes. Maybe an extra storage road. Spoke to Dad this morning. He moved a layout from North Wales to El Campello, east of Alicante. It was 2x1 softwood frame with a chipboard top. Their new house had an underground garage which was quite cool even in August, so he didn't experience any board movement at all. They've since moved back to N Wales, and although the boards now have a ply top, the frames are the original ones. That's good to know - thanks. I may be over-complicating things, but I'm just paranoid about getting the layout there and watching it warp. I'll do the best job that I can now and hopefully it will be ok. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted July 24, 2016 RMweb Gold Share Posted July 24, 2016 Did you mean 50mil ply Pete - I know it's going on a trip but that sounds very substantial. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted July 24, 2016 Share Posted July 24, 2016 Did you mean 50mil ply Pete - I know it's going on a trip but that sounds very substantial. 50mm and 90mm high, Mike, not thick. If the ply was that thick, I'd be tempted to save on diesel and sail it there... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium skipepsi Posted July 24, 2016 RMweb Premium Share Posted July 24, 2016 Sounds like a winning plan then Pete, is this the new home for better health for IIRC Louise? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted July 25, 2016 Share Posted July 25, 2016 Thanks Mick. PM sent. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted July 25, 2016 Share Posted July 25, 2016 Going back to the ply frame... question coming up. I've just been over to Travis in Cromer for some bits and I had a word with the guy in the timber yard. They have a panel cutter. As my own table saw really isn't big enough and is past its best (old + unreliable wonky fence), I'm tempted to give them a cutting list and get an 8x4 sheet ripped down into strips for the baseboard framework. The question is... what exactly is the advantage of sandwiching softwood strips between two pieces of (for example) 6mm ply? I have heard of folk using this method, but I would usually just have made the framework from perhaps chunky 18mm ply and then added a 9mm ply top. With no softwood sandwich, the extra weight would be negligible, surely? The diagonal bracing I understand, but I can't for the life of me fathom out the sandwich advantage, unless it is just to save a little bit of weight? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Stubby47 Posted July 29, 2016 RMweb Gold Share Posted July 29, 2016 I think it's a similar principal to using 3ply walls for models - to reduce bending, whilst also saving weight. Mind you, I used 5mm ply, too few softwood blocks and it was a disaster... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
PatB Posted July 30, 2016 Share Posted July 30, 2016 The idea is to put all the wood at the outer extremities of the section and leave out the stuff in the middle which does very little, from a structural point of view, apart from join the outsides together. The amount of weight saved for a given strength (or, more correctly, stiffness) of structure can be considerable. A composite beam made up of two thicknesses of 3mm ply joined by a few strips of 12x12mm softwood will be almost as stiff as a beam made from solid 18mm ply but will weigh well under half as much. Ply is dense stuff. Much denser than the softwood we typically use in solid sections, so the more that we can replace with softwood (without sacrificing stability and dimensional accuracy) or, better yet, air, the better, if we're going to be transporting our baseboard much. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted July 31, 2016 Share Posted July 31, 2016 Thanks for that. I didn't know that the ply sandwich beams were made from ply as thin as 3mm... I had assumed maybe 6mm. Using 3mm would certainly save weight over solid 18mm beams. I'd also assumed that the beam construction would require at least as much internal bracing as a conventionally-framed layout. Ironically, weight-saving is not an issue as once the layout is where it's intended to be, it's purely a vanity project that won't leave home. I think warping in the extremes of heat are much more of an issue for me than lightness! Still tempted to make use of Travis Perkins' panel cutter and get an 8x4 sheet ripped, but knowing me I may just go for the "old" technology of thick ply sides and internal bracing at 18" perhaps with diagonal stiffeners. I certainly have ruled out softwood forming any part of the construction, though. Thanks again. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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