Trawsfynydd Railway Society

[coachmann]

Or build a shed first

Will GE release full size drawings....?

[SWTH]

I really don't like to be the sort who says 'can't be done' but in this case I can't see this being viable.

 

With decent leadership, a sound business plan and some initial capital to start the ball rolling things would be different.

 

The issues:

No stock.

No stations.

No facilities.

No USP.

No money.

 

Can't see that being easy to rectify.

 

Also, North Wales has a high number of very high quality attractions, one of which already terminates at Blaenau Ffestiniog. The Conwy Valley line also has its charms. Can Blaenau Ffestiniog stand a third railway, especially when the overwhelming majority of passengers start their journey on the FR at Porthmadog? I really don't think so.

 

NR obviously have no issue with a group volunteering to clear overgrowth on a mothballed line, why would they? It's being done at zero cost or risk to NR, not to mention a small bit of nice positive publicity for NR appearing to be accommodating and helping out.

 

As I said, I don't want to be a nay-sayer, but I just can't see why or how this is going to be a success.

[Coryton]

I really don't like to be the sort who says 'can't be done' but in this case I can't see this being viable.

 

With decent leadership, a sound business plan and some initial capital to start the ball rolling things would be different.

 

The issues:

No stock.

No stations.

No facilities.

No USP.

No money.

 

Can't see that being easy to rectify.

 

Also, North Wales has a high number of very high quality attractions, one of which already terminates at Blaenau Ffestiniog. The Conwy Valley line also has its charms. Can Blaenau Ffestiniog stand a third railway, especially when the overwhelming majority of passengers start their journey on the FR at Porthmadog? I really don't think so.

 

NR obviously have no issue with a group volunteering to clear overgrowth on a mothballed line, why would they? It's being done at zero cost or risk to NR, not to mention a small bit of nice positive publicity for NR appearing to be accommodating and helping out.

 

As I said, I don't want to be a nay-sayer, but I just can't see why or how this is going to be a success.

 

On the other hand...

 

If they can build a station very close to the existing National Rail/Ffestiniog, and provide something dry for people to do who turn up to Blenau Ffestiniog in the pouring rain, maybe they have a niche...

[SWTH]

On the other hand...

 

If they can build a station very close to the existing National Rail/Ffestiniog, and provide something dry for people to do who turn up to Blenau Ffestiniog in the pouring rain, maybe they have a niche...

There isn't space. In fact, the nearest place to build a station is right at the other end of town. As for providing something to do, what about the FR or the Conwy Valley?

 

I have to also say that given the FR's ability to find and tap revenue streams, if there were additional potential for wedging people's wallets open at the top end of the line they would have done something about it. The income potential just isn't there.

 

Let's look again at costs. It's really not just a case of walking the line with a chainsaw and a tank of weed killer, everything will need professional inspection at the very least. Chances are there will be some re-sleepering needed (wooden sleepers if I remember), there's the condition of bridges and culverts and other infrastructure to consider, and there is also the big question of the total lack of any of the facilities needed. At least one station (the land for which would need to be bought if it's located in Blaenau Ffestiniog), a shed - even if it's just a Jocko, it'll still need to be kept undercover with an inspection pit and sufficient tools to keep it serviceable. How about stores and spares? There's a fair bit of ancillary kit required even with a rudimentary one train railway, PW materials and tools, S&T, rolling stock repair/maintenance facilities (even if it's a scaffold platform it'll still cost), an office to run the railway from (even if they start with a couple of office-type portacabins) and a million and one other things to consider long before they even think of carrying passengers. This is 2016, it isn't 1966, you can't just bash the worst weeds out of the way and run a shunter and a brake van up and down.

 

I'm a great believer in the idea that if you want something badly enough and want to work hard enough to make it happen, it will happen.

 

I hope they find a way of making this whole idea work, but based on current evidence I have my doubts.

[coachmann]

A wood platform could be built in the cutting just beyond the overbridge outside Blaenau Central station but no run-round.  A loop could be at Tanymanod. The level crossing gates in the town would need manning and covered facilities for whoever mans them. It is easy for naysayers to talk things down......... I say good luck to the people getting really involved.

Edited December 8, 2016 by coachmann

[wombatofludham]

I've been following the group on Facebook and in the local press and whilst I too have some doubts, I don't think the FR have shown any interest in developing the line simply because they have been heavily focussed on making a go of the Welsh Highland, which is a far more lucrative and attractive project for them.  Blaenau isn't a destination, the FR have made little attempt to tie in with the Llechwedd complex which since the opening of the underground trampoline is more of a family oriented attraction but which has relatively poor links to the railways, and to be honest the appeal of riding the Conwy Valley line would be of more interest to enthusiasts than Jo and Joanna Normal who would fail to see the attraction of a ride in an Arriva Sprinter.  Blaenau has little else to capture the ordinaries, and is quite frankly unappealing, and I say that as someone who is regularly in the town and quite likes it.

 

In any case until recently Trawfynnydd didn't really have much going for it either but recently the Antur Stiniog outdoor activity people have opened a lakeside cycle track and cycle hire facility which has become quite popular and next year the National Park will be opening Yr Ysgwrn visitor centre based on the farm where the Welsh language war poet Hedd Wyn lived.  There could, if properly organised, be some market in providing a heritage railway of some sort linking the national network and Ffestiniog Railway with Trawsfynnydd if marketed in connection with these attractions, but even so, I suspect it would be a limited attraction (although getting out of Blaenau would be incentive enough) and need a properly thought out and efficient group behind it - which I remain to be convinced is the case here.

[Quarryscapes]

As far as I can make out this is Colin Dale and his mates' grand retirement project and nothing more. If things were put in place properly with a proper society with proper aims to do something proper, then I'd be up there every day volunteering. However, as it stands there is absolutely no need whatsoever for this line to be put back into action, in any form least of all as yet another tourist attraction - at best it would serve as an alternative for the folks who live at Maentwrog Road station building to get to Blaenau  to go shopping but is of no practical use to anyone else. It is in my humble view far more interesting as a derelict oddity. 

 

A colleague pledged money for the clapped out 08, he reckons they have reached their target? 

[SWTH]

I speak from the viewpoint of both a professional railwayman and current volunteer footplate crew, not just some naysayer that drives an armchair for a living. I also have good knowledge of the area under discussion, being a former resident of the area. Stick a wooden platform in the cutting if you can, how exactly are people supposed to get to it? Will it comply with DDA regs? Bear in mind any new railway station construction (heritage railway or not) is very much within the scope of the Act.

 

Let's look at another project that many naysayers spoke at length about - the WHR. Driven through by the FRCo, a company with the expertise and proven history of taking on seemingly impossible tasks and overcoming them. The restoration of the FR itself began thanks to men with a vision, but also a generous slice of money from Alan Pegler and others.

 

This is the key to what the TRS are lacking - money. There are no current income streams, future income is by no means assured and there are no funds in the war chest to get off the ground. There is also a hell of a lot to beg, buy or borrow before the first wheels even touch rail, let alone the start of passenger services.

 

What the TRS needs is a backer with a spare £250k+ to burn, along with the ability to plan, just to get the project properly off the ground.

 

The question is though, where is the income stream going to come from? Enthusiasts only make up a small percentage of most heritage railways passenger numbers. If you're going to go for a ride on a train at Blaenau Ffestiniog, then chances are you'll go on one that actually goes somewhere, through some great scenery, rather than through some not bad scenery to the remains of a decommissioned Nuclear Power Station. Pipe dreams are all well and good, but sometimes reality has to make an appearance.

[Gronk8]

Update on the Loons... They are moving to MRY in 3 weeks in talks with the PR he thinks im a good person but i think there being Over Enthustiastic. NR is giving them sections to clear. Also by the sounds of things on there new page Blaeanu Ffestiniog to Trawsfynydd Railway there have been uos and downs with the admin team and There Works organiser Cancelled his event for some Reason. But the section they are currently on has been compleated. No sign of colin dale in any of the Photographs

[Marshall5]

Update on the Loons... They are moving to MRY in 3 weeks in talks with the PR he thinks im a good person but i think there being Over Enthustiastic. NR is giving them sections to clear. Also by the sounds of things on there new page Blaeanu Ffestiniog to Trawsfynydd Railway there have been uos and downs with the admin team and There Works organiser Cancelled his event for some Reason. But the section they are currently on has been compleated. No sign of colin dale in any of the Photographs

Obviously means something to somebody but it beats me!  Can we have a translation into something resembling English please?

[Zomboid]

It occurred to me a few days back that they might be better advised to try promoting a tourist service on the Conwy valley line. Steam trains from Blaenau to Llanwrst or even LLJ would seem to have some potential along the lines of the Jacobite, and would run through Betwys, which is a major tourism centre in Snowdonia. Didn't they do similar things on the coast line before ERTMS came along? I don't think the loop at Llanwrst is a regular passing location, so finding paths on the face of it seems possible, particularly on Sundays...

 

Apologies for my spelling of Welsh place names.

[28XX]

If you are a member you will have had one of these.

 

Dear Stephen,

 

Extraordinary General Meeting of the Blaenau Ffestiniog & Trawsfynydd Railway Society

 

On Saturday 28th January 2017 at 11:00 the Blaenau Ffestiniog & Trawsfynydd Railway Society, "The Society", will hold and EGM to elect the members of the society to the committee. All fully paid up members of the society are eligible to become members of the committee. The positions available are

 

1. Chairperson

2. Vice-chairperson

3. Secretary

4. Treasurer

5. Membership Secretary

6. Public Relations Officer

 

In addition to these elected positions the directors of the Trawsfynydd Railway Company ,"The Company", will be invited to join the committee as non-voting members however this means the directors of the Company are not eligible to apply for the positions listed above.

 

After the conclusion of the voting for the committee the members of the Society will be given short presentations covering the follow topics

 

1. The relationship between Society and Company

2. Financial update (Society)

3. Membership numbers (Society)

4. Charity status (Society)

5. Work progress so far (Company)

6. Next Stages of work (Company)

7. 100 day plan - principles (Society)

8. 100 day plan - principles (Company)

 

We will have a much better meeting if as many members as possible can join; please let Peter Bowers (our acting PR Officer) know if you are able to attend by emailing him here

 

You can also read our Facebook page about our project and get the latest updates here

 

Or our website here

 

Thank you

 

Robert Knight on behalf of the Blaenau Ffestiniog & Trawsfynydd Railway Society

[MR PJ]

Hello,

 

A large number of correspondents on this thread have been terribly derogatory regarding this project. Its easy for all the keyboard warriors out there to find a thousand and one reasons that this project is verging on lunacy etc, etc, but the fact is that people have had a bit of vision to get this project off the ground, and work has actually begun already.

Britain's preservation scene would have never got off the ground at all given the level of negativity exhibited on this thread. Yes - this project faces its challenges, but it is in a very attractive area, not too far from Snowdonia, so does have a catchment area for tourists. In fact is does have more potential than some other smaller preserved railways. If through trains to the Conway Valley - or even excursions from the mainline - could operate, then the line would have a very bright future indeed.

Resorting to insulting people -as some have on here - for having a bit of enthusiasm or vision is quite frankly appalling behaviour, This project has actually got off the ground quite quickly. Having been involved with other preservation societies (where even putting in a passing loop or platform can take years) this is actually happening at a very fast pace. From small beginnings great things can grow....

 

Cheers,

Paul

Edited January 6, 2017 by MR PJ

[Coryton]

Britain's preservation scene would have never got off the ground at all given the level of negativity exhibited on this thread. Yes - this project faces its challenges, but it is in a very attractive area, not too far from Snowdonia, so does have a catchment area for tourists. In fact is does have more potential than some other smaller preserved railways. If through trains to the Conway Valley - or even excursions from the mainline - could operate, then the line would have a very bright future indeed.

 

 

If somebody was looking to open the Welsh Highland Heritage Railway now I'm sure there would be plenty of nay-sayers. What is the point in another narrow gauge railway when Porthmadog already has two? Who would pay to go on a very short ride when the Ffestiniog and WHR are so much longer? But it's found a niche and seems to be viable. If three railways work in the area, why not four? Especially if one isn't even narrow gauge.

 

Blaenau Ffestiniog has something going for it that Porthmadog doesn't - all the people turning up on the Ffestiniog on one of the very frequent wet days and faced with getting soaked walking round town or to the Llechwedd slate mines, or turning round and going straight back again.

 

Given something to make it sufficiently interesting to the non-enthusiast, it might do quite well - IF people aren't faced with a walk between stations.

 

In principle there's no problem - just use the National Rail platform while there isn't a Conwy Valley train in. In practice I suspect not practical though presumably not impossible.

 

If | recall correctly, the platform is much longer than is needed for a DMU so maybe it could be split with a buffer stop in the middle?

 

This would probably prevent loco-hauled charters from running to Blaenau Ffestiniog - too high a price to pay?

[coachmann]

The new railway has to be beyond NR and its signalling boundaries. That means the other side of the overbridge. It is but a short walk across the car park to the cutting beyond where a wooden platform would suffice to begin with as at Corwen East. A gated road crossing isn't far from a station at this point, so permanent manning of the gates isn't a problem. The others are minor crossings but no doubt H&S would require some form of warning system in addition to whistles from the train.

Edited January 6, 2017 by coachmann

[Coryton]

The new railway has to be beyond NR and its signalling boundaries. 

 

In practise I'm sure you're right,

 

In principle, if the NYMR can run over NR metals into Whitby then surely Blaenau Ffestiniog station could be shared? And yes I can think of various reasons why it's not practical and I expect there are more that I haven't thought of.

 

I have no idea how practical a wooden platform in the cutting compliant with all the appropriate regulations would be.

[pete_mcfarlane]

The others are minor crossings but no doubt H&S would require some form of warning system in addition to whistles from the train.

It still seems to be permissible to work lightly used crossings with flags - on the recently opened extension of the Steeple Grange the train stops and the guard gets out, checks the road is clear, and then signals the train over. 

[PaulRhB]

While the area is scenic the main problem is where do the customers come from? Combining a day out with the slate caverns makes sense if they can offer a cheaper alternative to the FR.

Don't underestimate the attraction of the FR though, it's very good at what it does and marketing it.

 

If somebody was looking to open the Welsh Highland Heritage Railway now I'm sure there would be plenty of nay-sayers.

 

Oh there were at the time and god was it bitter, I was a member of the 64 Co. and there was silliness on both sides yet the volunteers on both railways got on.

 

 

Blaenau Ffestiniog has something going for it that Porthmadog doesn't - all the people turning up on the Ffestiniog on one of the very frequent wet days and faced with getting soaked walking round town or to the Llechwedd slate mines, or turning round and going straight back again.

 

Blaenau has something going for it compared to Porthmadog? I have yet to find it and I've got very wet walking round Blaenau!

Porthmadog at least has plenty of places to eat on a wet day.

 

In principle, if the NYMR can run over NR metals into Whitby then surely Blaenau Ffestiniog station could be shared? And yes I can think of various reasons why it's not practical and I expect there are more that I haven't thought of.

 

Cost of getting and maintaining mainline certification on stock and a signalled transition is the huge problem to a start up without support from a local authority dipping its hands in pockets.

Swanage has been working towards it and it's taken years with that support.

Edited January 6, 2017 by PaulRhB

[Coryton]

Blaenau has something going for it compared to Porthmadog? I have yet to find it and I've got very wet walking round Blaenau!

Porthmadog at least has plenty of places to eat on a wet day.

 

 

Well unlike Porthmadog, Blaenau has a disused railway line with some nice views that can be walked down....

[Gronk8]

Shouldnt colin be given the Benefit of the Doubt here?.the People on the Ground are working hard passed today seen 5 lads working... Are u telling me there doing this to keep network rail happy incase the Power station wants to re open. Is colin dale really this bad of a person, join the meetintg in trawfynydd see what they are planning to do.. Maby this will be a big Boost that Blaeanu Ffestiniog wanted...

[PhilH]

While the area is scenic the main problem is where do the customers come from? .

As some might know I volunteer on the Mid Hants Railway. I've often asked the same question about our railway, and we're not exactly in the most scenic area in the country, nor a top holiday destination, not as pretty as other railways....and yet, whilst we have our struggles as do all heritage railways, we seem to do alright.

 

So it would seem that you can't apply logic to this question, some work, some don't.

[RJS1977]

If the timetables are designed carefully to slot in with the Ffestiniog's then I could see passengers coming up on the FfR and continuing to Traws on days when the FfR is running more than one train. A 'blue' timetable has two hours between one FfR service arriving at Blaenau and the next departing, which is enough time for a round trip to Traws and something to eat. A pink or gala timetable has an hour between one arrival and the next departure which would still be enough for a round trip to Traws, I should think.

[PaulRhB]

So it would seem that you can't apply logic to this question, some work, some don't.

I agree Phil but you have to think about it and let people know, this thread is actually helping there

I'm very aware though that the Talyllyn is struggling because there isn't any other attraction nearby to help with causal visitors and they market strongly.

All I'm suggesting is they need to think carefully about how to draw in the people from Llechwedd or possibly the FR. I suspect though that most off the FR will have already spent a lot there so may not be able to afford another trip.

The Slate caverns are a draw so catching those with a joint marketing campaign might help. NR might be tempted by a clever strategy in line with some of the community lines already proposed if they can get the local authority on board.

[Rob_Knight]

Good evening ladies and gentlemen; I am the Robert Knight mentioned in some of the posts on this site and I would like to take this opportunity to update you on our progress. On the 28th of this month we will have an EGM where a committee of the society will be elected; you are all welcome to attend and vote and all I ask is that you join the society. www.bftr.co.uk for more details.

 

Many of you reading this will have been a part of a brand new venture so you will know that we don't have all the answers to the questions you have raised but we do have a lot of answers. We don't have a huge amount of money yet and please, if any of you do have a spare £250K, come and talk to us.

 

By the end of January we will have an official society committee to compliment the official railway company directors and I am preparing a presentation that will explain exactly how the two organisations will work in harmony with each other.

 

The volunteers we have cover all aspects of the skills that any society needs but we would love to have more skills so please offer to help us.

 

Network Rail are supporting us but of course in 2017 we must work with legal departments, health and safety, environmental protection that maybe in the 1960's weren't so high on the agenda. We will achieve the standards we need to and we will prosper.

 

It is too early, unfortunately, to talk about where the stations will be; we need all our focus on raising money (society) and line clearance (company).

 

I live in Blaenau Ffestiniog, I agree it does rain a lot but I also know that the residents of Blaenau would love this to be successful; they have seen how well Antur Stiniog have done and anything that brings people into Blaenau will be welcome. Maybe new business will start to service the new tourists.

 

Some of you have described yourselves as nay-sayers; well if you believe the saying that there is no such thing as bad publicity then you cant be. There will be problems in this project; sometimes it will feel like we are taking two steps forward and three back but you can help us change that.

 

Come along to the volunteer weekends, join the society (£20 per annum) and you will be helping make a difference and one day the BFTR will be as good as the WHR or the FR and you can say that, in part, that you helped build a successful railway.

 

Thank you

 

Robert

[Marshall5]

Robert, thank you for your post explaining, in clear concise English, what your organization wishes to achieve.  I have, on several occasions on another forum, voiced my concerns that the proliferation of new lines is counter productive to the heritage railway movement as a whole.  Hardly an issue of Steam Beano goes past without the announcement of another 'crack-pot' scheme. Oh!, and before anyone repeats the " if the pioneers of the 60's/early 70's had listened to the nay-sayers....." I first started volunteering on a heritage railway in 1966 and still volunteer albeit less now than I once did.  In the early days there was little competition for customers, little regulation and, with the contraction of the rail industry, plenty of cheap or even free equipment.  Times have changed since then and heritage railways have to be viable businesses competing for customers and volunteers - many have succeeded, some are struggling and some have failed. 

There always seems to be a desire amongst enthusiasts, particularly those of the 'armchair' variety to 'save' everything but we need to be more selective in what we try to preserve as witnessed by the locos, rolling stock and equipment seemingly abandoned at many 'preservation' sites when the initial enthusiasm and cash have run out.

As a movement we should, perhaps, go for quality rather than quantity?

If your scheme was not in an area already saturated with heritage lines, had a USP, and had a financial backer willing to bankroll it as at Ongar I would say "maybe" but I think you would be well advised just to let this one go.

I admire your enthusiasm and that of your other volunteers but why, oh why, not join one of the other nearby heritage lines and help them out? After all there are plenty to choose from.  I'm sure we have all dreamed, at one time or another, of having our 'own' railway on which to 'play trains' but reality usually dictates otherwise.

Please be assured I'm not 'having a go' but trying to encourage you to think of the bigger picture.  If you do persist and succeed in your project I'll not only take my hat off to you I'll eat it as well.  (One would have to see the state of my 40+ yr old greasetop to appreciate the health risks involved!)

Ray.

Edited January 8, 2017 by Marshall5