Jump to content
 

'Bass' Wagons around 1890


Recommended Posts

Bass brewery wagons around 1890...
I'm currently reading the tomme 'The Railways, Nation, Network & People' by Simon Bradley.

In it he mentions that Bass Brewery around the 1880's had 69,954 trucks.

On page 30 of 'Midland Wagons. Vol. 1' , it mentions that by around 1895 the MR had acquired over 66,000 PO's and either quickly scrapped them or they were taken into stock.

 

The Midland seems to have had a lot of Dumb Buffered wagons in the late 1890's, seemingly replaced by the almost ubiquitus D299 of which 63,010 were built.  But that's still less than the alleged 69,954 Bass wagons. I'm wondering if somebody's calc's are a little astray.

 

Staying in the late 1890's, does anybody have any details of the Bass wagons and the livery of the Bass wagons?  Please.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Bass brewery wagons around 1890...

I'm currently reading the tomme 'The Railways, Nation, Network & People' by Simon Bradley.

In it he mentions that Bass Brewery around the 1880's had 69,954 trucks.

On page 30 of 'Midland Wagons. Vol. 1' , it mentions that by around 1895 the MR had acquired over 66,000 PO's and either quickly scrapped them or they were taken into stock.

 

The Midland seems to have had a lot of Dumb Buffered wagons in the late 1890's, seemingly replaced by the almost ubiquitus D299 of which 63,010 were built.  But that's still less than the alleged 69,954 Bass wagons. I'm wondering if somebody's calc's are a little astray.

 

Staying in the late 1890's, does anybody have any details of the Bass wagons and the livery of the Bass wagons?  Please.

 

 

I would hazard a guess that this figure is either total cobblers or it refers to something other than mainline railway wagons.

Link to post
Share on other sites

  • RMweb Gold

Hi Penlan,

 

There are a few photos of the Bass brewery on the Staffordshire Past Tracks web site:- http://www.search.staffspasttrack.org.uk/search.aspx

Nothing from the 1890 though in this 1912 view there are lot of Midland wagons!

 

http://www.search.staffspasttrack.org.uk/Details.aspx?&ResourceID=4846&PageIndex=14&KeyWord=bass&SortOrder=2

 

Beware of some of the captions on this site as they are not always correct.

 

The only other wagons view in the pre-grouping era at the Bass works is this one.

 

http://www.search.staffspasttrack.org.uk/Details.aspx?&ResourceID=4932&PageIndex=11&KeyWord=bass&SortOrder=2

 

There is a nice collection of locos though:-

 

http://www.search.staffspasttrack.org.uk/Details.aspx?&ResourceID=4992&PageIndex=14&KeyWord=bass&SortOrder=2

 

Not much help but I hope of interest.

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

  • RMweb Gold

I should also add that I believe that there was around 20,000 miles of track across the UK in 1890 so that would make 3 Bass Wagons per mile of track.

 

Put in that context the quantity seems unbelievable.

Link to post
Share on other sites

There are a few photos of the Bass brewery on the Staffordshire Past Tracks web site:-

The view here has more GN wagons than MR, I see there's a couple of LNWR Dia 32 or 33 Vans, in the earlier livery, so probably dates the photo to circa 1905.

There's some good photo's here.

 

I think wagonman is right, cobblers numbers, and thank you SimonD.

Edited by Penlan
  • Like 2
Link to post
Share on other sites

  • RMweb Premium

Bass brewery wagons around 1890...

I'm currently reading the tomme 'The Railways, Nation, Network & People' by Simon Bradley.

In it he mentions that Bass Brewery around the 1880's had 69,954 trucks.

On page 30 of 'Midland Wagons. Vol. 1' , it mentions that by around 1895 the MR had acquired over 66,000 PO's and either quickly scrapped them or they were taken into stock.

 

The Midland seems to have had a lot of Dumb Buffered wagons in the late 1890's, seemingly replaced by the almost ubiquitus D299 of which 63,010 were built.  But that's still less than the alleged 69,954 Bass wagons. I'm wondering if somebody's calc's are a little astray.

 

Staying in the late 1890's, does anybody have any details of the Bass wagons and the livery of the Bass wagons?  Please.

 

To put this in context, at 31 December 1894, the Midland Railway had a total stock of 112,604 wagons, of which 59,435 were 8 ton high sided goods wagons (D299 and surviving precursors) and 21,260 were coal wagons "as purchased". The Midland had one of the largest wagon fleets - I can't find the numbers but I think at the grouping only the North Eastern had more? The largest Private Owners - coal factors and the largest colliery companies - seem to have had fleets running into the thousands but not the tens of thousands.

 

As far as I can make out, the overwhelming majority of PO wagons were used for coal - these wagons aren't carrying biscuits - manufactured goods (including beer) would normally be transported in the railway's own wagons. This led to some disputes where customers wanted covered vans but the railway persisted in supplying opens. Staying with biscuits, the Midland built a small number of opens with sheet bar specifically for Carrs biscuit traffic (D304).

 

 

 

I don't think they were used for shoe traffic: that would be Northampton(shire)... ;)

 

No doubt conveyed in PO vans like this to disprove my previous statement! (Those Hornby 1970s Kit Kat / Fine Fish etc. vans stand in a long tradition!)

 

I should also add that I believe that there was around 20,000 miles of track across the UK in 1890 so that would make 3 Bass Wagons per mile of track.

 

Put in that context the quantity seems unbelievable.

 

Taking a typical 1880s wagon to be 18' over the buffers, 70-odd thousand would occupy about 240 miles of track.

 

I wonder if this spurious statistic actually refers to the number of wagonloads dispatched in a year?  

Link to post
Share on other sites

Have you tried contacting these......?

 

The National Brewery Centre,

Horninglow Street,

Burton Upon Trent,

DE14 1NG

 

They have copious amounts of info on the former Bass Brewery, including a large scale model of it in its heyday.

 

I'm sure the subject has come up on here before as well, though no idea how long ago it was.

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

And then the statistics are no longer spurious, but a guide to getting it right.

I can't remember where the quote comes from, but 'Some people use statistics as a drunk man uses a lamppost, for support rather than illumination'.

 

Jim

  • Like 4
Link to post
Share on other sites

Have you tried contacting these......?

 

The National Brewery Centre,

Horninglow Street,

Burton Upon Trent,

DE14 1NG

 

They have copious amounts of info on the former Bass Brewery, including a large scale model of it in its heyday.

 

I'm sure the subject has come up on here before as well, though no idea how long ago it was.

My understanding is they are undergoing renovation or similar at present.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Thank you one and all, there's some good links been posted, and although the OP Q. hasn't been directly addressed - and I'm not worried about that - at least we now know there's even shoe traffic, to boot.

 

Worthington had their own PO's, or I think that says 'Worthington' on the PO just under the building here

 

Also they seem to have had loads of MR wagons in their yard too, although what the wagon in the centre of the picture is doing, with two planks down from the end - loading a lorry / cart ? I'm not sure here

And whatever the load is (probably sand) in the 2 NSR wagons in the foreground, I'm sure it must be over the wagon capaicity.

Edited by Penlan
Link to post
Share on other sites

I've got the recent book on PO wagons of the South East, and there are a examples from the Kentish breweries including some vans owned by Shepherd Neame of Faversham (anyone for a pint of Spitfire?) labelled as being 'For Hops and Malt only'. There are also similar vans for other breweries, all in the very small numbers.

 

There's no sign of any vehicles for sending out supplies of beer, so I'd guess that this went out in barrels in railway owned opens as per the photo Penlan posted. 

 

There are also lots of photos in volume 3 of the SR wagon series (the one for the SER/LCDR/SECR) that show sacks of hops from Kent loaded in to railway owned opens (and covered with a tarpaulin). This begs the question of why Shepherd Neame had tiny numbers of vans for the hop traffic, especially as it was seasonal. Did the vans carry dried hops?

 

I would hazard a guess that this figure is either total cobblers or it refers to something other than mainline railway wagons.

I'm wondering if the authors misread the records and mistakenly presented the figure for the number of wagon movements from the Bass site as being the total number of wagons they owned. 

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

Have you tried contacting these......?

 

The National Brewery Centre,

Horninglow Street,

Burton Upon Trent,

DE14 1NG

 

They have copious amounts of info on the former Bass Brewery, including a large scale model of it in its heyday.

 

I'm sure the subject has come up on here before as well, though no idea how long ago it was.

 

Just for information (I have no connection) there is a Model Train, Toy and Collectors' Fair (swapmeet to you and me) at the Brewery Centre on Sunday.

 

Also they seem to have had loads of MR wagons in their yard too, although what the wagon in the centre of the picture is doing, with two planks down from the end - loading a lorry / cart ? I'm not sure here

 

Isn't that simply a buffer stop? It would seem to be a strange place to set up an end loading bay in among all the sidings.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Not all wagons were capable of physically holding their rated capacity. It depended on the density of the load. For example CR 8T mineral wagons could not hold 8T of coal, but could hold 8T of iron ore.

Jim

Edited by Caley Jim
Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm currently reading the tomme 'The Railways, Nation, Network & People' by Simon Bradley.

In it he mentions that Bass Brewery around the 1880's had 69,954 trucks.

Was he quoting something which related to road vehicles rather than rail ones?

Link to post
Share on other sites

  • RMweb Premium

Thank you one and all, there's some good links been posted, and although the OP Q. hasn't been directly addressed - and I'm not worried about that - at least we now know there's even shoe traffic, to boot.

 

Worthington had their own PO's, or I think that says 'Worthington' on the PO just under the building here

 

Also they seem to have had loads of MR wagons in their yard too, although what the wagon in the centre of the picture is doing, with two planks down from the end - loading a lorry / cart ? I'm not sure here

And whatever the load is (probably sand) in the 2 NSR wagons in the foreground, I'm sure it must be over the wagon capaicity.

 

Any Worthington POs are almost certainly for coal - almost any industry in the 19th/early 20th century consumed quantities of the stuff and it does seem to have been worthwhile for large consumers to own or hire their own wagons rather than rely on colliery or coal factors' wagons. Above, I linked to a photo of Huntley & Palmers' wagons (biscuits); leafing through the Montague Gloucester book there are also flour mills, tweed mills, firework manufacturers, brick and tile manufacturers, matchstick makers, jam & pickle manufacturers, as well as brewers. None of these firms' products would really be suitable for conveyance in mineral wagons! Several Swansea-based collieries or factors advertise their products as "Best Malting Hop Drying & Horticultural Anthracite Coals" or similar - so if you are modelling a fictional brewery, there's a steer to what POs you should run to deliver the fuel. See this topic for chocolate - inbound milk in MR passenger-rated vans, cocoa in Belgian vans, coal in Cadbury's POs - including some steel hopper wagons - but the finished product out in MR covered wagons. There are Cadbury's branded vans but the likelihood is they are second-hand vehicles for internal use only - mobile stores.

 

In the Burton flood photo, I think the wagon in the centre is up against a buffer stop, as are the two vans with an open between them just to the right (Poor Old Bruce just beat me to that). Are the two heavily-loaded Knotty wagons just to pilot the engine through the flood? They might give warning of hidden obstructions or damage to the track.

 

The PO hops and malt vans do seem to have been associated only with Kentish breweries - local conditions? The South Eastern and the Chatham, having brought each other to the brink of ruin, may not have been able to supply covered wagons/vans themselves.

Edited by Compound2632
Link to post
Share on other sites

  • RMweb Premium

Ian Peaty's 'Brewery railways' [1985] mentions the breweries using but not owning large numbers of wagons. Bass had 110 railway wagons at one of its breweries. He doesnt give a total for the wagons they owned. They had 17 breweries in 1911. Bass handled 666 wagons in 24 hours in 1900, & transferred 113825 wagons of beer to the mainline, but the vast majority would have been in mainline wagons. Other breweries also had fairly small quantities of their own wagons. I have a pamphlet produced by Bass somewhere and there was an OPC book on Burton brewery railways some years ago but I spent the money on beer & models...

 

Cheers!

 

Dava

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

I am reminded of the 'Salt Union' open wagons, which were mainly if not wholly used for coal. I suppose industrial users of coal wagons are perhaps the most neglected by modellers. I myself have lots of coal wagons, but they are nearly all railway company, colliery, or coal merchant. I'm conscious I should have more 'end user' wagons, of which I am sure there were lots and lots.

 

I don't know the reason for the brewery hop/malt vans, but possibly at one time or other they found it hard to get hold of enough railway co. wagons for their traffic. Or alternatively, they may have had just enough for their basic need, and hired railway co. wagons to cover gluts. 

 

(I am still a bit at sea as to why Spillers had to give up their PO vans - the argument seems to have been that the GWR was able to supply an adequate number of company wagons. But surely this argument must have applied to many traffics, bar those like bitumen that made a horrid mess of wagon interiors?)

Link to post
Share on other sites

Publications that might help:

 

- the brewery museum published a series of reproductions of Bass "boasting booklets" about thirty years ago, typical things full of statistics, photos of the operations, descriptions of how their employees were the best looked after in the land etc. They contain plenty of photos of the railways;

 

- IIRC, the Industrial Railway Society has published a book on the Bass railways, although I know I don't have a copy.

 

Planks at end of open wagon in middle of flood? A lifeboat ramp.

 

K

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

  • RMweb Premium

(I am still a bit at sea as to why Spillers had to give up their PO vans - the argument seems to have been that the GWR was able to supply an adequate number of company wagons. But surely this argument must have applied to many traffics, bar those like bitumen that made a horrid mess of wagon interiors?)

 

There was an article on the Spillers case in BRJ or GWJ many years ago - I had the magazine (there must have been some Midland-related content) but can't locate it just now. As far as I can recall and with a bit of help from Wikipedia, the customer could only offer traffic in their own wagons if the railway company was unable to provide an adequate supply of suitable vehicles. Spillers contended that the open wagons offered by the Great Western were unsuitable for transport of bagged flour - damp getting in under the wagon sheets etc. - so bought themselves some iron mink clones. The Great Western responded by supplying covered vans and refusing to handle the Spillers vans. The case went all the way to the Court of Appeal - the judgement is given here. Spillers were however given compensation by the Great Western for their expenditure "in misapprehension of their right" - this may have meant just buying the vans off Spillers.

 

I suspect that the point of difference between this case and the hundreds of thousands of PO coal wagons is that for coal traffic the railway companies by and large declined to offer suitable vehicles to the customer - I suppose they didn't want vast amounts of capital tied up in wagons that were being used very inefficiently, at least for transport; the coal industry seems to have found them very effective for storage. The North Eastern was the exception: having a monopoly in its area and coal traffic flows that were predominantly in area - pit to port - it could work to a different business model, supplying large capacity wagons together with handling methods that enabled them to be used efficiently.

  • Like 2
  • Informative/Useful 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

Isn't that simply a buffer stop? It would seem to be a strange place to set up an end loading bay in among all the sidings.

I think your right, I'm so used to seeing recovery vehicles in narrow Cornish lanes, and/or grass cutting contractors trailers with ramps all over the place that I was on auto-suggest.

Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm just wondering whether the 2 NSR opens were carrying malted barley, in transit from the Maltings to the Brewhouse – a short internal journey that would not have entailed bagging the stuff. If so then the load would well within capacity. It seems to have stopped raining... 

Link to post
Share on other sites

There was an article on the Spillers case in BRJ or GWJ many years ago - I had the magazine (there must have been some Midland-related content) but can't locate it just now. As far as I can recall and with a bit of help from Wikipedia, the customer could only offer traffic in their own wagons if the railway company was unable to provide an adequate supply of suitable vehicles. Spillers contended that the open wagons offered by the Great Western were unsuitable for transport of bagged flour - damp getting in under the wagon sheets etc. - so bought themselves some iron mink clones. The Great Western responded by supplying covered vans and refusing to handle the Spillers vans. The case went all the way to the Court of Appeal - the judgement is given

 

 

Your summary of the GWR vs Spillers case is accurate. I supplied some of the material used in writing the article (in pre-Google days!).

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
 Share

×
×
  • Create New...