From a photo of Botley LSWR

[PeterR]

Hi,

 

I have attached a portion pf a photo from Botley LSWR Station, showing an 'interesting wagon - very like the Scottish (empty)cask wagons) - does any knowledgeable LSWR member(s) know anything about it please?

 

I can see a use for it on LSWR territory, but have not seen a drawing or other photo with it in.

 

Botley is well known for Fruit traffic for various railway companies  (LNWR, Midland) but I have never seen a wagon like the one mentioned above (the cattle wagon is also interesting - it has canvas(?) sheets inside for protection, of the fruit (strawberries?) that it will possibly filled with soon?

 

 

Any ideas/suggestions please?

 

Yours Peter

[Caley Jim]

.... - very like the Scottish (empty)cask wagons) -.....

Any ideas/suggestions please?

Hi Peter.  It's not a CR empty barrel wagon as they had a single diagonal on each side of the doors, but it could be a NBR empty cask wagon as produced by Ratio some years ago, see https://www.flickr.com/photos/robpulham/9076300873

 

Jim

[Argos]

as it is coupled to a cattle van could it also be a livestock van?

 

Early livestock vans were built without roofs, I think it was around 1880 when parliament mandated trucks carrying livestock had to be roofed.

I seem to recall the NSR still had roofless cattle vans in use upto around 1890.

 

The torpedo vents on the carriage suggest this photo was taken in the early 1890's (based on their introduction onto LNWR carriages) so perhaps not!

[PeterR]

Hi,

Thank you for all the ideas, from Jim -  he suggests the old Ratio version - that I think is too long, but I agree that the lens could perhaps crush the length. The photo is of the Ratio kit by Rod Pulham who normally works on 7MM, his blog, and RM web entries are very good.

 

 

From Argos - The cattle van I suspect is being used for a fruit van, but will stay on the LSWR as it is at the end of a long line of LSW open wagons and vans. The early Cattle wagons were built with out roofs, but the design is wrong for those - different side struts; the wagon Looks to be about 16 -18 foot long.

 

A quick check with the NBRSG Forum wagon list shows, that all the NBR cask wagons were 24 foot long, I do not have a photo of them but the Ratio version could possibly that long.

 

As the location - in a line of LSWR wagons & vans if it was a LSWR version perhaps?

 

Yours Peter.

[MarcD]

I have gon through allmy wagon books and I would go for the NBR cask wagon. However for what I can gather the cask wagons were used for moving casks from cooperages to breweries and distileries in Scotland and would have very rarely travel south

 

Marc 

[ian@stenochs]

Hi,

 

Interesting picture and teaser. The G&SWR had empty cask wagons with vee bracing each side of the door very like that in the photograph. However I cannot think what cargo it would be carrying or why it would be on the LSWR,

 

Ian.

[Ian Smeeton]

Casks and barrels were used for all sorts of things back in the day.

 

They were a good strong container and more  man-maneouverable than a crate.

 

Butter, nails, fish, and many other commodities were transported in them, so I think that virtually every railway would have a use for an empty cask wagon.

 

Regards

 

(another) Ian

[Dazzler Fan]

+

 

Attached to a Cattle Wagon, I think it is a Provender Wagon
for hay, straw and feed.

 

Noel

[ian@stenochs]

Casks and barrels were used for all sorts of things back in the day.

 

They were a good strong container and more  man-maneouverable than a crate.

 

Butter, nails, fish, and many other commodities were transported in them, so I think that virtually every railway would have a use for an empty cask wagon.

 

Regards

 

(another) Ian

Hi,

 

Yes casks and barrels were pretty ubiquitous but what I don't understand is why special EMPTY cask wagons were needed. Unless they were used to deliver new casks from the coopers to the end user.

Full casks would travel in open wagons or perhaps vans if the contents were really valuable like whisky but judging from my model of a cask wagon it could carry about 3 wagons worth of casks.

 

Anyone shed light on cask traffic?

 

Ian.

[Andy Hayter]

Breweries and distilleries would usually have a coopers in the vicinity.  As already posted barrels were used for all sorts of goods because of the ease of handling.  I have even heard of them used for shipping crockery (packed in straw of course).  So many towns and villages would have a cooper nearby.

 

The empty cask wagons were, I believe, for a very specific traffic for some of the Scottish whisky distillers.  A few used second hand barrels from Spain and Portugal which had previously held port and sherry- much as you can get cask conditioned whisky today.  The empty cask wagons were to transfer these casks from the Scottish harbours to the distillery.  Their use therefore would be geographically very restricted - and certainly unlikely on the LSWR.

 

The wagons shown looks remarkably similar to ones used by the PLM in France at the same time as part of the transhumance in the Massif Central and they were used for transferring hay from the high pastures down to the valleys at the end of the season (and maybe in the reverse direction at the start of the season).  I therefore have to support the provender wagon theory posted above by Dazzler Fan.

[billbedford]

Are we sure this photo is of Botley on the LSWR? the coaches look like they have LNWR livery. And all the vehicles in the photo have white roofs, which makes me think that it is a photo of a model.

[PeterR]

Hi All,

 

I have the NBR wagon book, and the CR one! The cask wagons in there are not the same, alas, I also asked the LSWR circle who also thought they were NBR -the wagon is not  the framing etc is wrong for the NBR. The question was also askd as to what(?)  it was doing there so far from home.  

 

Bill Bedford asks is it Botley - because of the - newly painted LNWR coaches . Yes Bill, the LNWR coaches were being used for fruit transport, older coaches were frequently used for such movements, they took out the seat cushions, and laid the boxes there and on the floor. I think they will be suburban coaches, and the LNWR is getting some quick use out of them after a repaint!

 

The LSWR by the way did not have any provender wagons as I also asked the LSW circle about them.

 

So, we had drawn a blank re its 'provenance' and we certainly cannot ask anyone that would be 'there' to answer my question

 

Thank you for all the interest.

 

Yours Peter.

[billbedford]

It is a NBR cask wagon, one of the 1905 batch (diagram 67b) with sliding doors and extra roof hoops. These were rated at 10 or 12 tons. Looking at the photo this wagon appears to be partly loaded, so a enlargement of the original may give a clue as to what was being carried. I assume that, like fish traffic, the transport of fruit was organised by wholesale merchants, with vans being hired from the merchant's local railway before being sent to wherever the fruit was ready to be loaded.

[bike2steam]

 of the fruit (strawberries?) that it will possibly filled with soon?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/hampshire/content/articles/2008/05/03/history_strawberry_feature.shtml

[Penlan]

PeterR, I learn something everyday, I wasn't aware of old LNWR coaches being stripped out for fruit traffic.
I suppose if I was still in the LNWR Society, I would have seen it in one of the Journals.

[Penlan]

Looking at the Disused Stations web site http://www.disused-stations.org.uk/b/botley/index1.shtml

There's also this photo, again showing LNWR coaches.

And the first coach would appear to have some lettering in the centre, under the windows,

and the class designations on the door panel seem to have been painted over...
The coaches don't look that old to be relegated to such duties.