Class A3 4-6-2 in O Gauge from Hatton's

[Nova Scotian]

55 minutes ago, norman said:

I don't think the Chinese do repairs, Heljan in Denmark also, so you are left with selling them off cheaply in the hope that there are mugs who will buy them.

I checked gaugemaster and peter's spares - Gaugemaster has Heljan O gauge spares, but not for the A3/A4 and also no service sheet for them.

 

This is a 750 GBP model.

 

We've seen what Hattons have done (not done) with OO 66 buyers - and they're doing it here too?

 

I get that parts supply for small runs is hard, and having some trained to repair them is harder - but at the very least someone should be able to order spare drivetrain parts for this model and attempt a repair themselves. On a 750 GBP model. This isn't some 50 quid trainset loco that's seen as disposable.

 

I'm astonished.

 

 

[Simond]

My understanding is that the factory is contracted to produce a batch, let’s say 500, of a product.  They’ll produce a few more to get through the approvals process, and prove out paint, packaging, etc., and then they’ll build the batch, and then dismantle the production line and set up another one.  I’d expect the mould tools are simply slab-milled flat again, and a new set of parts sunk into them.  There’s no going back.

 

As a result of this “fixed batch” production, we get cheap toys, but when they’re gone, they’re gone.  There are simply no spares to be used in further repairs.

 

So, if a few months after it’s sold, the customer has a visually perfect, but non-functional loco, the retailer is obliged to refund or repair but can’t repair, my guess is that they refund, and try to limit their losses by flogging it off.

 

There are many folks out here who can remotor a loco, there are lots of motor-gearboxes available, it’s not without risk, but at the right price, it would be an attractive project for someone who wanted one, not necessarily a mug, as it probably still looks ok, and will work better.  And hopefully they’ll write it up on here, because if one has failed, it’s probably only a matter of time before others do.

 

Atb

Simon

[Hal Nail]

If you buy a faulty one from new or while under warranty they replace it.

 

We dont know what happened to that particular loco and why it is being sold on damaged. No one is forced to buy it if they are worried they can't repair it.

 

Edit: Simon is clearly more patient with conspiracy theorists than me!

Edited November 6, 2020 by Hal Nail

[Simond]

I think there’s a perception gap between a customer seeing a £750 loco as an expensive discretionary purchase, and a factory in China (or anywhere else) seeing a fixed price contract for say 500 units.  
 

They neither know nor care what the product is, about the final customer, the retailer margin, or indeed what happens to them after they are loaded in the container.

it’s just a thing.

 

if you want one with a personal touch, you’ll pay 4, 5 maybe 10 times as much.

 

end of

 

atb

Simon

[Pre Grouping fan]

9 hours ago, Nova Scotian said:

I checked gaugemaster and peter's spares - Gaugemaster has Heljan O gauge spares, but not for the A3/A4 and also no service sheet for them.

 

This is a 750 GBP model.

 

We've seen what Hattons have done (not done) with OO 66 buyers - and they're doing it here too?

 

I get that parts supply for small runs is hard, and having some trained to repair them is harder - but at the very least someone should be able to order spare drivetrain parts for this model and attempt a repair themselves. On a 750 GBP model. This isn't some 50 quid trainset loco that's seen as disposable.

 

I'm astonished.

 

 

I don't think Gauge master would hold spares for the A3/A4 as they were an exclusive model for Hattons. 

[Pre Grouping fan]

2 hours ago, Simond said:

My understanding is that the factory is contracted to produce a batch, let’s say 500, of a product.  They’ll produce a few more to get through the approvals process, and prove out paint, packaging, etc., and then they’ll build the batch, and then dismantle the production line and set up another one.  I’d expect the mould tools are simply slab-milled flat again, and a new set of parts sunk into them.  There’s no going back.

 

As a result of this “fixed batch” production, we get cheap toys, but when they’re gone, they’re gone.  There are simply no spares to be used in further repairs.

 

Atb

Simon

I think you underestimate the complexity of mould tools. 

 

Each tool is individual and specific to the part/s they produce. Usually the actual part cavities are on separate inserts in the main mold blocks but then each tool has its individual cooling and ejector pin arrangements so it's really not worth repurposing old tools for new parts.

 

If a tool is only intended for a limited quantity or single production run, it might be made of aluminium as its cheaper and won't last past a few runs. But I can't see any model tooling being aluminium.

 

I've read in various places that the average cost of tooling a loco these days is in the high 5 figure or low to mid 6 figure range so no company would let that investment just be repurposed 

 

How do you think companies like Bachmann who run multiple productions runs of each models over the years with multiple different interchangeable parts to create different versions of each model?

[norman]

I wonder who owns the tooling.  After producing the A3 they produced the A4 and I believe that to be the same manufacturing source.  Another run of the A4 is expected shortly. The tooling exists but ownership and storage of it is likely to be an issue. However, that said you would think that spare parts like gears especially with Heljan's track record would be available.  Is that not part of a service that a good supplier like Heljan would ensure.

[Simond]

5 hours ago, Pre Grouping fan said:

I think you underestimate the complexity of mould tools. 

 

Each tool is individual and specific to the part/s they produce. Usually the actual part cavities are on separate inserts in the main mold blocks but then each tool has its individual cooling and ejector pin arrangements so it's really not worth repurposing old tools for new parts.

 

If a tool is only intended for a limited quantity or single production run, it might be made of aluminium as its cheaper and won't last past a few runs. But I can't see any model tooling being aluminium.

 

I've read in various places that the average cost of tooling a loco these days is in the high 5 figure or low to mid 6 figure range so no company would let that investment just be repurposed 

 

How do you think companies like Bachmann who run multiple productions runs of each models over the years with multiple different interchangeable parts to create different versions of each model?

You may be right, however I’ve been involved with volume manufacture for many years, and my brief experience of Chinese tooling was not hugely positive.  Even if they do not repurpose the tools, I’d bet that the bolsters and other parts are reused, and that the actual moulds themselves will be scrapped.  They may be soft (eg alu), but I agree that seems unlikely.  
 

The last tooling I purchased was a good deal simpler than a loco, and was for a production run lasting years, so proper hardened steel, with slides and other fancy features, so not cheap, but a million quid, no, not at all, nowhere near.  
 

How many A3s will they sell?  Let’s be generous, say a thousand though that might well be close to 10% of the active 0 gauge community in the UK.  So the total project turnover is three quarters of a million.  From which they have to design it, make mould tools, make parts, pay for motors, wire, purchased parts & materials, design and manufacture packaging, pay people to do the assembly and packing, probably do some certification or due diligence to place a CE mark on it, put them in a container & ship them to the UK, pay for publicity, pay their retail staff, any interest on money borrowed, and they still want to make a profit on their investment.

 

if it were your money, how much return would you want to justify taking a punt on maybe the price of a house?

 

I really wouldn’t bet there’ll be another production run, 0 gauge simply doesn’t have sufficient customers.  00/4mm is a different kettle of fish, multiple runs would certainly seem plausible there.

 

Atb

Simon

Edited November 6, 2020 by Simond

[Nova Scotian]

9 hours ago, Hal Nail said:

Edit: Simon is clearly more patient with conspiracy theorists than me!

Not sure I appreciate being labelled a conspiracy theorist...

 

What we have some from some other small runs is that extra parts are run for the batch, that are kept by the manufacturer or a third party as spares. It's possible given the size of the batch those spares will run out and not be re-run, but at least to begin with there's a pool of spare parts created. I don't think it's reasonable to expect a thoroughly well stocked spare parts chain of bushes for X04s the way the industry is structured now, but there should be a basic supply of spares expected to last a period of time following production. Those spares are not a money maker for the manufacturer; they cost to produce, and are a relatively low value and fiddly good to store/select/dispatch, but without you could have some very unhappy customers.

 

Those spares do not appear to be listed by Hattons (unclear whether they have them or not - but if they have them why would they not affect a repair on that unit to resell at a higher price), and they are not listed with the third party spares companies that state they either have Heljan product, or will have Heljan product.

 

I certainly do not believe it is incumbent upon the factory to produce those spares; is is the role of the manufacturer (as an easy example, Hornby) to contract appropriately when ordering the batch of production that it would include non-assembled parts for spares (if not already held). The complication here might be the Hattons/Heljan relationship, as one would not normally make the demand of a retailer to hold parts, but in this case where it is an exclusive product where is the line?

 

I have taken us off topic, and apologize. I was intrigued by a model being sold at a discount by the original commissioning retailer as damaged (mechanism) rather than being repaired - and from there went on a hunt for spares availability. Still don't think I'm a conspiracy theorist though...

Edited November 6, 2020 by Nova Scotian
Fat fingers

[Simond]

There’s a commercial concept of “placing on the market”, which I liken to publishing, not the writer or the printer.  One might hope that the “publisher” of such a model might consider having or sourcing an adequate supply of spares, but then again, it would have been better to over-design the damn thing in the first place to avoid the need for spares.

 

I don’t suppose they exhaustively tested prototypes, it’s an expensive business, and for a time-driven rather than cycle- or load-driven failure, it would be very difficult to do so in any meaningful way.  Equally, I don’t suppose that they expected them to fail or indeed knew or had any inkling of what the primary failure mode(s) might be, apart from the experience of the diesels, which might or might not be relevant in this case.

 

It may be that the commercial realities of the business say that only a very few will actually fail, nobody will die, and the easiest way to resolve those customers‘ issues is to simply refund them, with or without a goodwill gesture.  If the resultant losses can be mitigated by flogging off the broken models at a discount, without warranty, it seems to me to be a practical, if not ideal, outcome, particularly if you’ve sold out of the original batch, and you are not planning to repeat it.

 

but it’s only an opinion.  I have no skin in this game.

 

atb

Simon
 

 

Edited November 6, 2020 by Simond

[JeffP]

Strangely, this cropped up many many years ago, when Mainline Peaks came back on the market, courtesy of Dapol ( forgive me if my memory is defective here), without spares or much back up.

I got a rollicking from the then editor of Railway Modeller for saying it was poor form.

Plus ca change...as they say over here.

[Simond]

Eeh Jeff, I didn’t know tha spoke foreign i’ Scunthorpe...

 

atb

Simon

Edited November 6, 2020 by Simond

[Hal Nail]

3 hours ago, Nova Scotian said:

I was intrigued by a model being sold at a discount by the original commissioning retailer as damaged (mechanism) rather than being repaired

No offence intended - I was poking fun at myself...

 

I did read about someone buying three non-runners when Dapol were selling off some returns recently and it only took 5 mins to get all 3 working perfectly! I think as Simon mentions the trend now is to just build in x number of duds and don't even try and repair them.

 

Edited November 6, 2020 by Hal Nail

[jay*bobble]

Hattons got pr owned a3 for 630 and thay reduced the new ones to 579 makes no sence

[Hal Nail]

On 22/11/2020 at 10:43, jay*bobble said:

Hattons got pr owned a3 for 630 and thay reduced the new ones to 579 makes no sence

 

Just out of interest, they still have at least 240 of these simply totting up all the more than 10s.

 

I fear we wont be getting a proper loco like a Castle any time soon!

[Hilux5972]

1 hour ago, Hal Nail said:

 

Just out of interest, they still have at least 240 of these simply totting up all the more than 10s.

 

I fear we wont be getting a proper loco like a Castle any time soon!

What do you mean? Masterpiece Models did a Castle. It’s only £3300. Easy money

[Hal Nail]

On 30/11/2021 at 23:34, Hilux5972 said:

What do you mean? Masterpiece Models did a Castle. It’s only £3300. Easy money

Well on a serious note, thanks to modellers propensity to pay daft money for used items, the originals have turned out to be superb investments. Their first castle was c£2400 new but when they ramped up the price for the newer ones due to economic conditions (totally irrelevant to the originals), 2nd hand prices shot up over 3k as well.

 

If anyone can think of a better place to put pension savings, I'm all ears!

Edited December 2, 2021 by Hal Nail

[Simond]

It’s fairly rational that the price of an item will depend on the availability, and the price of similar items, particularly for “rare” goods.
 

if the original second hand ones were some 10% cheaper than new ones, and then new ones came out at a higher price, I think it’s predictable.

 

as for the pension, it’s a bet (like so many things).  If you can buy something whose value is guaranteed to increase faster than inflation, please pm me.

 

[Simond]

I probably ought to add, if I were to want an A3 or A4, which, given my Western tendencies is unlikely, I’d want to pay  very little indeed, because I’d replace the underpinnings with Premier Components chassis and motion, and motor, and Slaters wheels.  That would make the presentable upper works into a loco that would deliver reliably for a decent lifetime.
 

Work that lot out, 

 

loco frames £63

motion £26

coupling rods £16

con rods £14

motor £53

wheels £ 3x24 + 7x17 = 191

I make that £363

 

add a set of Slaters axleboxes and horns, another £14.50, and bits and pieces, you’re in the £400 range to have a decent loco.  How much for the loco and tender body?

 

 

[Hal Nail]

7 hours ago, Simond said:

How much for the loco and tender body?

I saw a non-runner the other day for 250 ish and might be able to chip* that or sell some spares.

 

But we are agreeing as my point about the large number still left, even at vastly reduced prices, was highlighting that these can't have been a success for them.

 

*as in negotiate, not DCC!

Edited December 3, 2021 by Hal Nail

[Simond]

Indeed we are in agreement.  
 

I’m not sure what you’d pay for a brass kit, maybe £350, but that would still need the wheels at £191, and £53 for the motor, so by the time you’ve added a crew, solder, paint & transfers, and whatever bits & bobs , you’re probably looking at the thick end of £650-700 (always assuming that brass kit building is on the agenda, certainly not universally true), so getting a Hattons non runner for say £250, and spending £400 on making it go might be a good option - with the advantage of not having to paint it.

 

pretty academic for me, they weren’t common on Welsh branch lines!

[Sprint]

So what is the consensus on the A3's at the reduced price of £579 are they considered good value or are there still many issues with them?

 

Have they ironed out all of the moulding and other quality issues or are they still falling apart, particularly the smoke deflectors and are the running gears, motors etc now sorted and reliable?

 

 

[Hilux5972]

27 minutes ago, Sprint said:

So what is the consensus on the A3's at the reduced price of £579 are they considered good value or are there still many issues with them?

 

Have they ironed out all of the moulding and other quality issues or are they still falling apart, particularly the smoke deflectors and are the running gears, motors etc now sorted and reliable?

 

 

They aren’t newly released models for that price. They will be the originally released ones that have been hanging around and so Hattons have dropped the price to shift them. 

[Hal Nail]

1 hour ago, Hilux5972 said:

so Hattons have dropped the price to shift them. 

Or not shift them if the numbers are anything to go by!

[Sprint]

I am aware that they were first released a couple, or more, years ago and that they have been at this price now for over a year. But during the original production run they were clearly still looking to sort out some of the production issues raised, so that hopefully the later ones would have had a number of the QC and mechanical ones resolved?

 

Has anybody purchased one over the last year or so and can advise as to what issues they may have experienced and how they have been sorted, or not?