Stoke a plan.

[71000]

Do you happen to know if the LMS did this as well? Great simple coupling by the way - i am doing something similar to my rolling stock. First attempt was on my Airfix coaches, using 0.8mm wire fixed at the old coupling anchor points on the bogies. the bent wire under the corridor connection (folded black paper) was bent to represent the hoses. My second attempt on my Bachmann coaches is using the screw couplings, but by adding a tiny loop one end I can extend it to attached the other coach. I will use black 7/0.2 wire for the hoses. I cannot close up the gap completely due to my tightish curve going into the fiddle yard, but I can reduce the huge gap caused by the "toy" couplings. Using sprung buffers is also helping. 

IanLMS,

Edited April 7, 2018 by 71000

[ianLMS]

Wow - Thank you - that was a very comprehensive response and very much appreciated. I am currently experimenting with couplings and have a rake of Airfix coaches coupled using brass wire - however, they are all the same coach type ending with a brake - after your detailed response, I will re-think that and mix the coaches up a little. I am now on version 3 and am currently using screw link couplings, fitting sprung buffers and replicating hoses on some Bachmann and Airfix coaches. Adding people as I go. Next job will be weathering and seeing what other simple modifications can be done to help the appearance.

 

Due to the size of the layout, I cannot go more than 5 coaches so will be limited to branch type running rather than full mainline expresses. I also have 9 brand new Hornby ones which I will leave alone for now and use them as they are. I also have two 50' parcels and a 12-wheel restaurant car.  

 

 

[71000]

Wow - Thank you - that was a very comprehensive response and very much appreciated. I am currently experimenting with couplings and have a rake of Airfix coaches coupled using brass wire - however, they are all the same coach type ending with a brake - after your detailed response, I will re-think that and mix the coaches up a little. I am now on version 3 and am currently using screw link couplings, fitting sprung buffers and replicating hoses on some Bachmann and Airfix coaches. Adding people as I go. Next job will be weathering and seeing what other simple modifications can be done to help the appearance.

 

 

IanLMS,

Edited April 7, 2018 by 71000

[Highlandman]

IanLMS,

 

Model coach couplings, the solutions, with PICTURES. 

As I'm modelling the Southern with its coach peculiar "Set" system. This means that on my coaching stock formed in "Sets", I can use a simple hook and eye type coupling, made from brass wire, internally within each set. Because they do not get uncoupled (except in the Fiddle Yard) while in normal use. Only the outer vehicles of SETS and "Loose" vehicles therefore need a "Proper coupling".  

 

W5147W Colletts coupling (02).JPG

Above: As this rake of 10 ex GWR Collett coaches, (recent Hornby releases), which includes left and right handed Brake 2nds, are run as a complete rake. So no uncoupling required in normal use. You can see I have applied my simple brass hook and eye type coupling internally between the vehicles. As these new models come with "flexi-coupling" mountings, I can get the corridor connections as close as seen without any fear of them bumping in curves.       

 

As the British "toy coupling" rather spoils what are now very nice models today. The "toy coupling" goes in the bin. For exhibition use certainly, stock needs a reliable, remotely controlled coupling that would beneficially also include a delayed uncoupling option built in. And, the uncoupling system needs to be invisible. It would also be helpful if the coupling to be used looked a bit more realistic. To help the problem of underscale curves on layouts it would also be nice to have some sort of method to aid this problem. Further as all recent models now come with NEM coupling pockets at a standard height, a coupling that simply plugs in would speed up changing from "toy" to a more realistic type. In addition it would also be nice if the alternative, cost no more than replacement "toy couplings"..... 

 

So if you want ALL the advantages mentioned in one item, there is only ONE choice - Kadee.

 

Kadee have for some years made options of their coupling for use in conjunction with the NEM system. These being couplings 17, 18, 19 and 20 in numerical order, each with a slightly longer shank. As these couplings look very similar to the BR Buckeye type coupling, that helps solve the visual aspect. They can be uncoupled by fixed track magnets, invisible under track magnets, or invisible under track electro-magnets. These magnets must however be of the "Split Pole" variety, as sold by Kadee. As a delayed action feature was added to Kadee couplings at least 20 years ago, this also helps shunting, particularly wagons in freight sidings. The problem of layout curves is aided by the fact that each Kadee coupling has a lateral sprung hinge in its shank. So allowing a reduction in the gap between vehicles whatever radii you are using. And the problem of price, is that Kadee's come in packets of four, for around the same price as four replacement toy couplings. So aren't even expensive. An increasing number of shops sell these items, including "Gaugemaster" and "Rails of Sheffield".

 

 

 

BELOW: Some photos of how Kadee couplings look on the model, and how they are fitted.

 

7756 4VEP Kadee coupling.jpg

Above: A Kadee No. 18 simply clipped into a 4VEP cab coach.

 

D1921 Class 47 (09).jpg

Above: A Kadee No. 18 clipped into the pocket of a Heljan class 47.

 

D6520 Class 33 (99).jpg

Above: A Kadee No. 19 clipped into the NEM pocket on a Heljan Class 33  

 

E6001 Class 73 (11).jpg

Above: A Kadee fitted to a Hornby Railroad range Class 73/0. On this older model no NEM pocket was provided. So instead I used a Kadee No5 which comes ready made in its own coupling pocket, which I simply glued to the original toy coupling mounting.

 

S34260 BSK Hornby Mk1 Kadee.jpg

Above: A new Hornby Mk1 BSK coach, (resprayed and numbered) with a Kadee No 20 clipped into the NEM pocket.

 

X Bulleid tenders (06).jpg

Above: Hornby Bulleid West Country tender with a Kadee No.18 plugged in. 

 

33006 Q1 rear coupling.jpg

Above: The Hornby Q1 tender with a Kadee No 18 fitted.

 

x Hall tenders (04) copy.jpg

Above: The Hornby GWR "Hall" Class. Both normal and railroad range tenders seen and both fitted with No 18 Kadee's.

 

X Couplings Kadee ED to Bulleid tender 13.jpg

Above: How the couplings appear with a Class 73/0 coupled to a Bulleid "West Country" .

 

X Couplings Kadee Gresely to Bulleid 6.JPG

Above: How they look, a Bulleid tender coupled to a Hornby ex LNER Gresley coach. 

 

Gate stock coupling (02).JPG

Above: The NEW DJ models "Gate stock". A Kadee No.19 simply plugged in. 

 

S2534S CCT Van workbench (08).JPG

Above: On kit built items such as this Southern PMV without NEM pockets, a Kadee No 5 which comes ready made in its own pocket, has been glued to the underside of the plastic floor. The white piece of plasticard between, simply ensures the coupling is at the right height.

 

71000  

 

Tony Wright hates tension lock couplings. He cuts all his off and replaces them with his version that includes dummy hoses between coaches. You can see how he does this here.

The beauty of this system is that you push a slight depression in the centre of the hoop so that coaches sit closer together on the straight but open up slightly on the curve.

 

Edited January 29, 2018 by Highlandman

[71000]

BASINGSTOKE 1958-67

 

Edited April 7, 2018 by 71000

[71000]

Tony Wright hates tension lock couplings. He cuts all his off and replaces them with his version that includes dummy hoses between coaches. You can see how he does this here.

The beauty of this system is that you push a slight depression in the centre of the hoop so that coaches sit closer together on the straight but open up slightly on the curve.

 

 

Edited April 7, 2018 by 71000

[PaternosterRow]

Brilliant stuff. Very informative blog and great craftsmanship. Will be definitely following this.

Edited January 29, 2018 by PaternosterRow

[robmcg]

Agree to the above, very impressive work 71000, much appreciated, an hour's reading pleasure, and hello from NZ  where sadly the Bo-Bo-Bo electric you drove c1984 is now I think about to be withdrawn, it's cheaper to use new diesel electrics.  I grew up with those EE suburban 'units' of the type you drove down from Johnsonville, but in earlier days when they were mostly the colour of rust and brake dust. 

 

We currently have heat not unlike a Spanish summer here.

 

Great work detailing the RTR models, thanks, and keep it up.

[Denbridge]

Very nice, although Tony Wright has made the classic error of not understanding the difference between Buckeye coupled stock with Pullman connections. And BSS gangways with screwlink couplings. What he has added would go much better on LMS & GWR coaches.

 

S15025 Mk1 CK Set 867 01.jpg

Above: Using Bachmann's own clip in brake hose coupling (takes but a second to install) this rake of BR Mk1 coaches obtains almost real life closeness, and costs nothing extra, in monetary terms or time. Adding concertina gangway connectios to SR/LNER/BR types with Buckeye couplings makes the models more unrealistic.....  

 

On Bachmann BR Mk1's (as seen on the link you gave) you need to add Kadee working Buckeye's, or do as I've done in the photo above.  Then you can have the corridor connections (as fitted by Bachmann) virtually touching.  Without any neccesity to make the gap between the vehicles larger to fit totally superfluous and unrealistic concertina gangway connections.  As these items are realistically only suited to BSS gangway type vehicles with screwlink coupllings such as LMS & GWR stock with flat/square ends. Rather than bow ended LNER/SR/Pullman and BR types that used rigid Buckeye couplings and short semi-rigid Pullman type gangways !     

71000

Firstly, I am enjoying your thread, this will be an impressive layout. However, I think you need to take a careful look at how you post YOUR opinions. To state that Tony Wright has made classic mistakes and to infer he is less knowledgeable than you is complete twaddle. Mr Wright is one of the UKs most experienced modellers as well as being involved with several large successful exhibition layouts plus his superb Little Bytham. his coupling method works very well indeed and in fact is very similar to that used by Pendon Museum. I will also add that a lot of your so called knowledge is complete garbage, especially with Regard to GWR carriages. You state the GWR used offset corridor connections. Rubbish. You also state they didn't use bow ends on their carriages, again total twaddle.

I will continue to enjoy your thread, though please, reign in the "holier than thou" attidude, especially when you aren't certain of the facts.

[71000]

Firstly, I am enjoying your thread, this will be an impressive layout. However, I think you need to take a careful look at how you post YOUR opinions. To state that Tony Wright has made classic mistakes and to infer he is less knowledgeable than you is complete twaddle. Mr Wright is one of the UKs most experienced modellers as well as being involved with several large successful exhibition layouts plus his superb Little Bytham. his coupling method works very well indeed and in fact is very similar to that used by Pendon Museum. I will also add that a lot of your so called knowledge is complete garbage, especially with Regard to GWR carriages. You state the GWR used offset corridor connections. Rubbish. You also state they didn't use bow ends on their carriages, again total twaddle.

I will continue to enjoy your thread, though please, reign in the "holier than thou" attidude, especially when you aren't certain of the facts.

 

Edited April 7, 2018 by 71000

[71000]

Agree to the above, very impressive work 71000, much appreciated, an hour's reading pleasure, and hello from NZ  where sadly the Bo-Bo-Bo electric you drove c1984 is now I think about to be withdrawn, it's cheaper to use new diesel electrics.  I grew up with those EE suburban 'units' of the type you drove down from Johnsonville, but in earlier days when they were mostly the colour of rust and brake dust. 

 

We currently have heat not unlike a Spanish summer here.

 

Great work detailing the RTR models, thanks, and keep it up.

Rob,

 

 

Edited April 7, 2018 by 71000

[Jack P]

We currently have heat not unlike a Spanish summer here.

 

I agree whole heartedly, the heat has been insufferable - that is, except for today, Tropical cyclone weather! Although looking out the office window over the waterfront, at least the rain has stopped.

 

Rob,

 

Here you go. 

 

*snip*

 

Lots of "Rust and Brake dust". Taken at Wellington depot 1987. Just dug it out of one of my albums and scanned it in for you. 

 

"Jack P" may also like this, as he's somewhere in the Wellington region !

 

71000

 

Nearly a decade before my time, but I do remember seeing them, also remember seeing them out of service on the far side of wellington station, what seems like a few years ago, but was probably close to 10!!

[polybear]

post deleted cos' I screwed up....

Edited February 1, 2018 by polybear

[Denbridge]

Well obviously you are entitled to your opinion, even when what you say is threatening. Which is not clever.

 

If Mr. Wright whoever he is, makes fundamental mistakes I'm only helping him by explaining said mistakes. And yes it seems he is unaware of the interaction between the real life technology involved. As a professional railwayman I'm giving him the benefit of my knowledge. If Mr. Wright had been a railwayman he would have known that, and not made the error in the first place.

 

Your claim that Mr. Wright is one of Britains most advanced modellers, is not really supported by what I was shown on his page.  Did he himself personally build these layouts you refer too. I think NOT. But I have personally built all my large exhibition layouts myself. And my first exhibition layout was a German one way back in 1979. My exhibiton layouts have attended many exhibitions, in both Britain and mainland Europe. So what exactly makes this Gentleman an advanced Modeller?

 

If your going to mention Pendon, you obviously are not aware that I was working on parts for Pendon layouts way back in the late 1970's, and I certainly don't remember anyone there with the name Mr. Wright. I do however remember Guy Williams the man who educated me in the delights of coreless motors !

 

You should re-read what I wrote about GWR coaches. You obviously don't understand the terminology of "Gangway" - the correct name for the connection between vehicles. And "Corridors" the internal part that runs the length of the coach in most cases. Because what I said was, that the internal "Corridors", were cleverly designed in a number of Collett coaches to have angled ends (chopping off the corner of the toilet compartment in some cases. Toilet compartments are inside coaches not outside !). So that they now directed you to the "Gangway" through which you passsed into the "Corridor" of the next coach. That was also angled, but on the opposite side of the train. Therefore you can walk in a virtual straight line even carrying luggage, without the need to negotiate sharp corners. Hence one of the needs for Left and Right handed stock.  

 

With regards to Bow ended and Square ended stock, on the GWR. If you use the BSS type gangway connection which is designed to work with a Screwlink coupling. Which is flexible in its length. You need more space lengthwise for the BSS gangway design. Because it is a "Suspension" type flexible connection. This does NOT prohibit Bow ended designs, and I never said it did. But it does make the design a little more awkward.

 

So most GWR corridor stock was Square ended through the Dean and Churchward eras (1880-1921). But this changed a bit upon the arrival of Collett, who took up office in 1922 as CME. The date of Colletts arrival is important, as he came on the scene just before the "Big Four" were formed (1923). Now the problem here is HMRI (His Majesties Railway Inspectorate). They had already determined that as a result of a number of accidents. That the Buckeye coupling and Pullman corridor connection were a safer method in accidents, to couple coaching stock. So they recommended all the new companies adopt this. Collett initially agreed, and experimented with the system applying it to a small batch of corridor coaches. However the GWR Board decided against the costs of adopting it fully. So the coaches already fitted were rebuilt to conform with the BSS gangway and Screwlink coupling. However this had introduuced the Bow ended design to GWR corridor coaches. (A number of non corridor Collett designs but not all, did of course have Bow ends). So Collett continued to dable with Bow ended designs erratically. Because he was also churning out standard flat/square ended types. The problem of a Bow ended design utilising the BSS corridor connection required the BSS design to be shortened. Otherwise the Buffers would have had to be impractically long. In other words in corners the buffers may have "locked" and derailed the train. The recent Hornby Collett "Bow ended" corridor coaches being a good example of one of his "Bow ended" designs. I should know I have a set of 10 of them, and you will find reference to these models in a previous Post. 

 

As regards Mr. Wrights coupling system I'm sure it works well. Your implication that he visited Pendon, and copied their methods, should ensure it works well. However the coaching stock on Pendon is mainly GWR and from an era pre-dating the adoption of the Buckeye coupling and Pullman connection by the SR and LNER Post 1923. So as I've maintained all along what Mr. Wright has made to couple stock internally within sets, which seems to require him to add cartridge paper "Concertina" connections in addition. Is more suited to LMS and GWR coaching stock. Because, as I have said before, these two companies did not agree to take up the Buckeye and the necessity to have the Pullman connection to go with that coupling. So the gap between BSS fitted stock is generally wider.  

 

So if you think that lots a load of "twaddle", I would recommend you invest in something like J.H.Russells classic and extremely good book (in two parts) about GWR coaching stock. Which will also introduce you to the delights of "King and Queen posts" (parts of coach underframing). For SR coaching stock you can't beat Mike Kings book "An Illustrated History of Southern Coaches" published by OPC.

 

Finally I would say, that unlike some more experienced modellers, I am quite happy to try and help other modellers. As it is also part of my job here at the Railway Museum in Mora La Nova (Spain), where aside from being the International Liason Officer. I'm also teaching a number of Spanish guys how to build layouts from the bottom up. In addition I think you will also find that another RM member "Jack P" who lives in New Zealand, is quite happy about the detailed information I have been sending him, to try and help with his excellent "Southern Railway " models, and his beautiful resprays.

 

71000   

1. Threatening? where exactly?

2.how can coupling coaches so they perform in a uniform realistic manner and look convincing be a mistake? your method using Kadee couplings is in fact inferior. you still have daylight showing between your corridor connections. it matters not a jot what your so called professional qualifications are, they are hardly relevant to coupling MODEL coaches in a realistic manner, Tony and the many thousands of people who couple fixed rakes in the manner used, in varying formats have not made any errors whatsoever.

3. If you know anything of Mr wright, you would know he has built and been involved with several large, successful layouts, almost certainly better known than yours, however good they were. I personally am very impressed with Basingstoke, it is your habit of constantly attempting to belittle respected modellers to boost your own ego that i find offensive.

3. Pendon. Guy Williams was a very dear friend. What exactly were your contributions to Pendon? I'll look them up on the database I am compiling recording every individual who has been a modeller, guide, operator etc, since the 50's. I await to be impressed.

4. Interesting backtrack on your previous posts concerning GWR coaches. You were wrong, but aren't man enough to admit it. (So you have 10 Hornby coaches So what? I have 35 here being converted to EM, detailed and with  kit built additions to form prototypical rakes. Once my current bout of ill health improves, these will form a thread on here.

5. I never said, nor implied, that Tony had copied Pendon. Your fixation of using Kadee's within fixed rakes is baffling. it looks inferior to the fixed bar method especially with the daylight between the connectors.

6.Yet again you choose to make insulting remarks. I don't need to invest in the books you mention. I have owned and used them for many years, together with many, many other books, publications, drawings and photographs.

7. If your idea of helping other modellers is to criticise, belittle, and insult, people as proficient, indeed more proficient than yourself, then you have a funny idea of 'helping'

As an aside, I do remember the German and Japanese layouts, they were very nice, but hardly the pinnacle of modelling. Being the biggest isn't necessarily the best.

When most of Basingstoke is equipped with mainly kitbuilt or highly detailed,modified proprietary  loco's and stock, I will be very impressed.

Lastly, having had 4 private messages stating you have always had a bad attitude, or words to that extent, i think i am far from alone in finding your attitude offensive.

[Denbridge]

1. Threatening? where exactly?

2.how can coupling coaches so they perform in a uniform realistic manner and look convincing be a mistake? your method using Kadee couplings is in fact inferior. you still have daylight showing between your corridor connections. it matters not a jot what your so called professional qualifications are, they are hardly relevant to coupling MODEL coaches in a realistic manner, Tony and the many thousands of people who couple fixed rakes in the manner used, in varying formats have not made any errors whatsoever.

3. If you know anything of Mr wright, you would know he has built and been involved with several large, successful layouts, almost certainly better known than yours, however good they were. I personally am very impressed with Basingstoke, it is your habit of constantly attempting to belittle respected modellers to boost your own ego that i find offensive.

3. Pendon. Guy Williams was a very dear friend. What exactly were your contributions to Pendon? I'll look them up on the database I am compiling recording every individual who has been a modeller, guide, operator etc, since the 50's. I await to be impressed.

4. Interesting backtrack on your previous posts concerning GWR coaches. You were wrong, but aren't man enough to admit it. (So you have 10 Hornby coaches So what? I have 35 here being converted to EM, detailed and with  kit built additions to form prototypical rakes. Once my current bout of ill health improves, these will form a thread on here.

5. I never said, nor implied, that Tony had copied Pendon. Your fixation of using Kadee's within fixed rakes is baffling. it looks inferior to the fixed bar method especially with the daylight between the connectors.

6.Yet again you choose to make insulting remarks. I don't need to invest in the books you mention. I have owned and used them for many years, together with many, many other books, publications, drawings and photographs.

7. If your idea of helping other modellers is to criticise, belittle, and insult, people as proficient, indeed more proficient than yourself, then you have a funny idea of 'helping'

As an aside, I do remember the German and Japanese layouts, they were very nice, but hardly the pinnacle of modelling. Being the biggest isn't necessarily the best.

When most of Basingstoke is equipped with mainly kitbuilt or highly detailed,modified proprietary  loco's and stock, I will be very impressed.

Lastly, having had 4 private messages stating you have always had a bad attitude, or words to that extent, i think i am far from alone in finding your attitude offensive.

You may also notice that my original comment has received more likes and agrees than most of your posts.

[robmcg]

You may also notice that my original comment has received more likes and agrees than most of your posts.

 

Wow.  If the number of likes and agrees is your measure of veracity and quality then that's your right.

 

I put pictures in my Facebook pages and get sometimes 100 likes, where the same pic in an RMweb Hornby or Bachmann thread might get 1 like.   

 

Scientific, no.   Meaningless, yes. As a measure..  Still, if it makes feel better.. 

[Barry O]

LMS and LMR catering facilities cover a multitude of vehicle types and diagrams front the Restauant First, Restaurant composites, 50 and 57 feet kitchen cars to buffet vehicles and cafeteria cars. As to the vehicles used with such vehicles..well research using the Essery/Jenkinson "Coaches of the LMS" is a good start as is the series of coach drawings in Railway Modeller.

 

I am intrigued by using NEM sockets for KDs as they vary in height and are too low for BR stock ..BR Mark 1s have their knuckle couplers in the middle of the headstock.

 

Baz

[71000]

LMS and LMR catering facilities cover a multitude of vehicle types and diagrams front the Restauant First, Restaurant composites, 50 and 57 feet kitchen cars to buffet vehicles and cafeteria cars. As to the vehicles used with such vehicles..well research using the Essery/Jenkinson "Coaches of the LMS" is a good start as is the series of coach drawings in Railway Modeller.

 

I am intrigued by using NEM sockets for KDs as they vary in height and are too low for BR stock ..BR Mark 1s have their knuckle couplers in the middle of the headstock.

 

Baz

Baz,

Edited April 7, 2018 by 71000

[Barry O]

My Mark 1 coaches have KD No 5s fitted at the correct height. Ends of rakes are no problem as I use an alternative coupling (dg) on locks and other vehicles.

 

Bachmann mk1 Nem sockets heights vary due to the use of different bogie ride heights.ie Gresley and commonwealth bogies.

 

It wouldn't have mattered if any UK company had attended the discussions as most of our models are made in factories producing more HO models than OO ones. There would never bn ent for a Uk/us/European hem height.

[Enterprisingwestern]

My Mark 1 coaches have KD No 5s fitted at the correct height. Ends of rakes are no problem as I use an alternative coupling (dg) on locks and other vehicles.

 

Bachmann mk1 Nem sockets heights vary due to the use of different bogie ride heights.ie Gresley and commonwealth bogies.

 

It wouldn't have mattered if any UK company had attended the discussions as most of our models are made in factories producing more HO models than OO ones. There would never bn ent for a Uk/us/European hem height.

 

Isn't that the whole point of standardisation, that, irrespective of fixed variables like floors and such like, the socket comes out at the same height? The fact that a European standard exists is a bit irrelevant as OO and HO stock wouldn't be coupled together in normal circumstances, but it would have been good to at least have UK manufacturers on the same page.

 

Mike.

[Barry O]

Mike which ones in particular as Most of our 4mm stock is made in China at the same factories as USA and continental stock....

[Jack P]

Mike which ones in particular as Most of our 4mm stock is made in China at the same factories as USA and continental stock....

 

Forgive me if I've misunderstood - but wouldn't it be up to those who design the stock as opposed to those who produce it to determine the height the nem socket would come out at?

[robmcg]

I wouldn't know much about couplers, but do rather like them when they work.

 

In the meantime here is a picture loosely based on a b+w photo by Maurice Earley at Worting Junction,  I am required by the moderators to advise readers that it is edited.   

 

Lord Nelson class BR 30851 'Sir Francis Drake' on an up West of England express c1957.

 

(will remove if required)

 

  

 

cheers

Edited February 8, 2018 by robmcg

[Enterprisingwestern]

Mike which ones in particular as Most of our 4mm stock is made in China at the same factories as USA and continental stock....

 

Barry, you've lost me, the ones in your post 145?

 

Mike.

[Barry O]

Mike

Apologies. It's the Bachmann NEM sockets on Mk1 coaches which vary a lot in height.

Mind you just line up a few wagons/coaches from all UK manufacturers of British outline stock and check the NEM socket heights. Not good as is the inability in some of the sockets to hold couplings straight and true.

 

Hence why I use KD #5 with their draught boxes.

 

Baz