New N gauge Crowdfunded Class 92 electric locomotive project

[Roy L S]

To a large extent the answer is fairly obvious - the people behind the companies (DJM and Revolution) are modern enthusiasts so they are bound to have a propensity to select and promote projects that appeal to them. It would be a bit like expecting and insisting that Union Mills produced an AC electric locomotive for their next product.

 

However, there would be nothing to stop you commissioning a steam loco and trying to get crowdfunding backing for it's development and production. I'd be interested in hearing about it.

 

G.

 

Hi Grahame

 

I agree there would be nothing to stop me apart from (at this stage anyway) a pretty demanding full time job and range of other commitments that take up almost all of my time.

 

Even were I to have time available I would still not have the same "clout" in the right circles to raise the profile of such a project in the way that Ben, Mike and Dave can, and as I see it, aside from picking the right model to start with, promotion is everything (as the success of the Pendolino clearly demonstrates). 

 

However that was not my point. It has been said elsewhere that the lack of success of the 21/29 may well have down to the demographic of those who would purchase such a model and a reticence to support crowd funded ventures given that even with a very strong "push" from Ben and Mike the very credible proposal didn't make the cut. I was more reflecting on why this might be the case.

 

The Union Mills analogy is an interesting one as it is true that Colin produces models which he likes (and some quite quirky) in small batches which fortunately appeal to a sufficiently large group of people, but he identified a niche market and has a very different approach to production, definitely not looking to sell thousands of a single model. Dave (Now as DJM) on the other hand already has a very credible track record in N and 00 steam locos.

 

Anyway, I will say no more, I wish Dave and all those supporting this project (a very handsome loco indeed) success, and I look forward to watching things progress.

 

Regards

 

Roy

[grahame]

 

 

However that was not my point. It has been said elsewhere that the lack of success of the 21/29 may well have down to the demographic of those who would purchase such a model and a reticence to support crowd funded ventures given that even with a very strong "push" from Ben and Mike the very credible proposal didn't make the cut. I was more reflecting on why this might be the case.

 

 

 

You actually asked "Is it really the case that there is no similar appetite for a similarly crowdfunded steam loco due to different demographic and these modellers being less willing to buy in to principles of crowdfunding?"

 

I gave a suggestion as to why modern subjects have been chosen so far, but fortunately Dave has invited commissions for all crowdfunded projects (see post #17 in this thread) so you could test out the appetite for a steam loco. I would suggest the correct choice would be key to it's success. It would also be a matter of working on the promotion of it (I'm sure Ben, Mike and Dave will give you some pointers) and both Mike and Ben have full time, and presumably demanding, jobs but are able to fit in the necessary workload for such a project.

 

Go on - give it a go.

 

G.

[porkie]

At that price im deffo interested in late 90's Railfreight distribution livery

[jbqfc]

always wanted a 92 or two this could get expensive

[amwells]

Hi mate,

 

All liveries for the crowdfunding project will be announced later this week along with an 'expressions of interest' page on my website so you can 'sign up' for 1 or 7, lol

Cheers

Dave

Hi Dave, have you considered going down the same route you did with the 71? By that I mean Kernow taking full payment up front on your behalf?

 

Reason I ask is that having paid up front, the project felt 'more certain' - you had the cash up front to get on with the project, and others could join as they am saw fit / could afford up until deadline day. The 'expressions of interest' route, while allowing a more staggered payment schedule, which in sure everyone would appreciate, means that if people stop paying say after the first small payment, everyone could lose that first deposit and the project would stall / stop.

 

I realise you can't please everyone, but I'm just wondering which route leads to the biggest risk to the project? Cheers

[Marconarnia]

Hi,

I love modern engines and am interested in a Class 92 DB Schenker livery....

Greetings.

 

Marco

[DJM Dave]

Hi Dave, have you considered going down the same route you did with the 71? By that I mean Kernow taking full payment up front on your behalf?

 

Reason I ask is that having paid up front, the project felt 'more certain' - you had the cash up front to get on with the project, and others could join as they am saw fit / could afford up until deadline day. The 'expressions of interest' route, while allowing a more staggered payment schedule, which in sure everyone would appreciate, means that if people stop paying say after the first small payment, everyone could lose that first deposit and the project would stall / stop.

 

I realise you can't please everyone, but I'm just wondering which route leads to the biggest risk to the project? Cheers

 

I'm a big fan of full payment up front, but it does, with a popular loco like this, lead to some not being able to afford a big lump of money up front (especially when they may want 2 or 3)

spreading the costs over 3 payments over up to 8 / 9 months makes things more palatable for the pocket i think.

[MGR Hooper!]

Hi Dave, is it going to be credit card payment only?

[DJM Dave]

Hi Dave, is it going to be credit card payment only?

yes it is, but you have a fair bit of time before any first payment becomes due.

[MGR Hooper!]

yes it is, but you have a fair bit of time before any first payment becomes due.

Thanks Dave, TBH I have no issue with sorting out the money. I just don't use a credit card yet. Will need to work out a way as I currently pay for all modelling needs via PayPal.

[Les1952]

I can probably answer the "why not a steam loco" question.

 

The number of classes of loco currently running on the National Network is about the same as the number of classes the Southern Railway acquired from the LSWR in 1923. Add to that that VERY few of those LSWR steam locos would get very far from LSWR metals in their lifetime (with the honourable exceptions of a couple of Adams radial tanks) while a modern class ranges the whole of the country. Almost all of the steam locos with a wide geographical spread have been done already.

 

That makes steam locos much more of a niche market, within N-gauge which is ALREADY seen by many as a niche market (and model railways could even be described as a niche market in total....)

 

Just a thought

Les

[Boco_D1]

Just when thought I my wallet was safe!

[njee20]

Thanks Dave, TBH I have no issue with sorting out the money. I just don't use a credit card yet. Will need to work out a way as I currently pay for all modelling needs via PayPal.

Do you not have a debit card associated with PayPal/your bank account though? I can't see how Dave could restrict it entirely to credit cards.

[Dr Al]

I'm not against a 92, but, I think that DJM has a huge amount promised for N, none of which has yet been delivered - is it really wise to propose yet more new items?

 

Already promised in N are a J94, 63xx, Q6, class 17, class 23 and class 59, never mind wagons and proposals for cars.

 

Seems like a lot.

 

Cheers,
Alan

[alibuchan]

The 59 has been cancelled as Dapol got the permissions to use one of the main liveries.

 

I would assume that the 92 is being done to give a modern loco to the DJM roster as there is nothing in the current loco announcements that would appeal. And that as research and some basic design will be carried over from the 00 work.

 

Alistair

[DJM Dave]

I'm not against a 92, but, I think that DJM has a huge amount promised for N, none of which has yet been delivered - is it really wise to propose yet more new items?

 

Already promised in N are a J94, 63xx, Q6, class 17, class 23 and class 59, never mind wagons and proposals for cars.

 

Seems like a lot.

 

Cheers,

Alan

The 92 is crowdfunded and isn't reliant on my finding funding from my other models, ergo it can proceed at whatever speed it needs to.

The 59 has already been answered, the 17 and 23 and 17 are next in the queue now money is coming in from the OO J94, and I've never held that info back.

The wagons have started with the mermaid in production as I type, and don't forget the only 100% successfully crowdfunded (totally) class 71 is almost upon us.

The 92 should, if the 71 was a success, also go this way too and not be impeded by other projects in its development and manufacture.

Cheers

Dave

[Dr Al]

The 92 is crowdfunded and isn't reliant on my finding funding from my other models, ergo it can proceed at whatever speed it needs to.

The 59 has already been answered, the 17 and 23 and 17 are next in the queue now money is coming in from the OO J94, and I've never held that info back.

The wagons have started with the mermaid in production as I type, and don't forget the only 100% successfully crowdfunded (totally) class 71 is almost upon us.

The 92 should, if the 71 was a success, also go this way too and not be impeded by other projects in its development and manufacture.

Cheers

Dave

 

 

The 59 hasn't been answered - the last post on it's thread that appears relevant ( http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/88262-n-gauge-class-59-diesel-locomotive/page-2 ) was that it was stuck in legality regarding liveries in November 2014. If it's been dropped then it's not been clearly posted there..........

 

I'm just disappointed that DJM has fallen into the same trap as other manufacturers who get lambasted for ambitiously announcing stuff that then takes 3,4,5 years to appear - seems to just be the same here. Maybe that's just the way it is, and the world isn't perfect, and things take time, and require cashflow; but maybe it's also time to draw a line and concentrate on moving forward with the (wealth of) existing projects. After all - they must still in reality be years away, even if you had all the cash to move them forward immediately - none of the locos are tooled yet, which presumably means a good long period of tooling, prototyping, mechanical testing, livery development, production, and no doubt others I miss.

 

My ol' superdetailed Farish J94 shall soldier on for a good while yet!

 

Cheers,

Alan

[MGR Hooper!]

The 59 has been cancelled as Dapol got the permissions to use one of the main liveries.

 

I would assume that the 92 is being done to give a modern loco to the DJM roster as there is nothing in the current loco announcements that would appeal. And that as research and some basic design will be carried over from the 00 work.

 

Alistair

 

 

The 59 hasn't been answered

 

I'm just disappointed that DJM has fallen into the same trap as other manufacturers who get lambasted for ambitiously announcing stuff that then takes 3,4,5 years to appear - seems to just be the same here

 

Cheers,

Alan

Alistair just answered your question one post below yours. And personally I don't think any manufacturer can avoid such circumstances. Yes I also felt Dave made one too many announcements, but the bright side is that a crowdfunding project will continue at a proper pace. But again, no manufacturer can avoid delays...It's become common in our hobby and there are very valid reasons. So far only SLW has said they faced no delays etc etc. But I can assure you they will in future and they'll face price hikes and all that too.

 

IIRC Dave did infact publicly state that he has dropped the Class 59...! 

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/88260-oo-gauge-class-59-diesel-locomotive/?p=1963000

 

Hi mate,

 

Yes, unfortunately I have had to withdraw from this model in both scales.

Ilve put a full explanation on 'Ask Dave' in this DJM part of the forums.

 

Cheers and sorry

Dave

Edited August 17, 2016 by MGR Hooper!

[Dr Al]

IIRC Dave did infact publicly state that he has dropped the Class 59...! 

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/88260-oo-gauge-class-59-diesel-locomotive/?p=1963000

 

 

On the OO thread.....not the N gauge one. Given I'm not an OO modeller, then it's not unreasonable to assume I wouldn't have read that....

 

Sure - manufacturers will have plenty of possibility for delay - surely a good reason not to promise too much - otherwise DJM will risk getting a reputation for promising a lot and delivering nothing. Sure - it's crowdfunded, so funding is different source that might have less delay, but there's only one Dave, spreading his efforts across more and more projects.......and some appear to have made no appreciable progress in years (e.g. the Q6....promised in less than a year now),

 

Looking at the list we await across all 3 of the N gauge manufacturers, I do look back at the day when Farish Poole turned up with a new loco produced and ready to sell with no prior announcement with some envy.

 

Cheers,

Alan

[alibuchan]

Im not a 00 modeller either, but when a model is announced in both gauges, then keeping an eye on both topics would give you an insight in to the progress being made. Giving plenty of opportunities to point out any issues that may have come up with the 00 CAD or model and give plenty of time to put them right before they work their way into the N gauge one. I have done the same with the 92 threads and when I was interested in it, I kept looking at the 00 gauge J94 thread as well.

 

Yes, Dave has announced lots of things, but he has been very open with the fact that he was having to wait on funds from a models sales to start on the next models. I don't see any issues on snapping up a few models, as he doesn't want to do loads of work on a model, start to cut metal then have to scrap it because one of the big boys has decided to do it too and shows it as a final painted sample, already in production.

 

Unfortunately gone are the days when farish used to do that, as they now have some decent competition, with the un-modelled loco pile becoming thinner by the year, then they have to get their stake in to the ones they want, so that we don't see more repetition like the Voyager and the B1, which only damages the hobby.   

 

Alistair

[MGR Hooper!]

On the OO thread.....not the N gauge one. Given I'm not an OO modeller, then it's not unreasonable to assume I wouldn't have read that....

 

Sure - manufacturers will have plenty of possibility for delay - surely a good reason not to promise too much - otherwise DJM will risk getting a reputation for promising a lot and delivering nothing. Sure - it's crowdfunded, so funding is different source that might have less delay, but there's only one Dave, spreading his efforts across more and more projects.......and some appear to have made no appreciable progress in years (e.g. the Q6....promised in less than a year now),

 

Looking at the list we await across all 3 of the N gauge manufacturers, I do look back at the day when Farish Poole turned up with a new loco produced and ready to sell with no prior announcement with some envy.

 

Cheers,

Alan

Hi Alan,

 

I agree, however I never made any assumption on what topics you read and haven't read. Just provided you a link showing that Dave did announce the drop of the two models. He's also done the same for the OO gauge Raven Q6. I am a OO gauge modern era collector. I still read as much as I can.

 

I agree about manufacturers knowing about the delays and not making promises, however if you go to see, not a single manufacturer has made any promise - at the most they give you an estimated arrival time for the model. As I said, even I feel Dave has done a lot of announcing and a has probably crossed his estimated delivery times a lot. But he has his plans and I'm sure it isn't liked by him either when they don't go according to it.

[Dr Al]

I'm sorry, but I don't follow the OO, and should not need to as folks seem to be implicitly implying - if it's not announced on the N gauge version (and I don't think it's unreasonable to say it should be) then it'll potentially get missed.

 

I'm not criticising either open-ness or the fact funds need to come in. I understand OO is more lucrative to bring in the initial funds. That's all fine - but stacking up an increasing list of products just seems wrong to me when in N we've had nothing delivered yet, now 2 years after first announcements of many - it'll end up getting to the infamous point of the Farish 101 and Ivatt both of which took over 5 years (or longer I think) at this rate.

 

Promises or not, it raises expectations that things are actually happening with them - it seems clear (if everything is open), from what's out there that some of these models are not progressing at all - or are there any updates to share, CAD pictures, tooling etc on say Q6, 63xx etc.....?

 

I don't necessarily agree that duplication is so damaging. Sure, it means another prototype may not be done which is a negative; but on the flip side it does mean customers have choice and does force manufacturers to their best given there's a direct comparison. It does seem too that in some cases the market is big enough, e.g. the class 66 which have been extesively produced by both Farish and Dapol in large numbers.

Cheers,
Alan

[Tricky-CRS]

I apologise to DJM in advance for this pure assumption, but I suspect that these crowd funding projects along with the many retailer commissions that all jump the queue are encouraged to help finance the business. The profits from these are paying for the standard range, along with the J94 and mermaids, it all adds up to support the growing, new start up business. 

 

Dave and I have had our differences and I am far from an out and out supporter, as people on here have criticised me in the past, but fairs fair he's trying. I disagree with his land grab early announcements, but the crowd fund and retail commissions all help fund the standard range.

[jthjthjth]

If Dave can make crowd funding for N work then more power to his elbow. You don't have to join in, but if you do and are therefore prepared to take on a bit of risk you are likely to get something quicker than waiting for a manufacturer to take on the risk. Given the economic circumstances over the last few years, and the uncertainties of the near future, I think Dave's efforts should be both encouraged and applauded. I'm not as brave as him.

[Paul B]

I apologise to DJM in advance for this pure assumption, but I suspect that these crowd funding projects along with the many retailer commissions that all jump the queue are encouraged to help finance the business. The profits from these are paying for the standard range, along with the J94 and mermaids, it all adds up to support the growing, new start up business. 

 

Dave and I have had our differences and I am far from an out and out supporter, as people on here have criticised me in the past, but fairs fair he's trying. I disagree with his land grab early announcements, but the crowd fund and retail commissions all help fund the standard range.

I'm afraid your assumption is wrong. Unless Dave is building in a profit margin over and above the time he puts in to helping these come to fruition then I very much doubt this and any other 'crowd funded' project will be funding his other projects.

 

At the price quoted I can't really see there is much in it for him on the first run of models. I'm sure he'll correct me if I'm wrong.