NEW OO gauge Crowdfunded Class 92 initiative

[DJM Dave]

Hi guys,

 

Can i nip this in be bud now so we can move on to more pressing questions etc.....

 

1) DJM has a stockists agreement , like Bachmann and others so that to maintain a fair playing field all DJM stockists as part of having a trade agreement can only sell new DJM products

for a maximum discount off RRP of 15% for 8 weeks. This plays fair with everyone.

 

2) Due to the confusion in my sending out revised price lists (my fault) Hattons published prices that are incorrect. Having spoken to them this morning, they will be revising their prices accordingly once the right staff are in on Monday morning to do so. This will make crowdfunding models cheaper than anyone else for their livery / number combo.

 

3) There is a further price advantage for crowdfunders in buying more than 1 loco, as published here, even if they dont want one, but a friend would like it.

 

4) Yes the project are behind schedule, i've not wanted this to happen obviously, but it is, and has missed tooling slots. i am trying to get those slots quickly but will keep you advised.

There are also, and i have alluded to, future announcements, that i cannot, due to contractual reasons / negotiations announce here, but they are quite impressive. And where possible these will only be available to Crowdfunders. (i know its a tease, but if you are already a crowdfunder, then your in a great position).

 

5) Yes, communication has been lousy and i apologise. I've started an 'announcement index' thread (only for me to post please), and i'll get it put as a sticky. It is designed as a first look page to see if there are any announcements (not general DJM chit chat, just announcements) and i will like to the relevant project page and give a post number so its easier to track rather than trawling through a thread.

 

6) Yes it looks like the alternate N gauge one will be first to market, i say market as i know from traders that they have been approached to sell the models and the alternate version still has an open order book (last time i looked). Unfortunately i dont have such a benevolent factory behind me, and have to do things the 'traditional' way.

 

7) To answer a private question on here, No, i will not, unlike other companies, approach manufacturers to drop announced models and collude in the market place to fix the market in any gauge. This in my mind (and the governments, by the way) is an illegal practice, and should never be countenanced by anyone. i believe it's dishonest, reprehensible, and don't think anyone that does this is worth a light in this business.

 

8) Yes, the DJM Pendolino in N gauge was a DJM project with agreements in place, advertising send out and displayed, before the 'partners' in the project decided to give the project to Rapido. This is now a Rapido project unfortunately.

 

9) This is difficult to explain, but i shall put it in plain language so that it cannot be misconstrued, and will answer the 'trade models' question so please bear with me.........

Both the definitive N gauge 92 model and the OO class 92's got off to a flying start with loads of crowdfunders signing up.

Subsequently upon alternate model announcements, the n gauge one haemorrhaged sign ups, quite badly, and then those that paid their deposit started to leave. That's their right, but it was very annoying. Remember i'm running a business here, doing this full time, legitimately, so cash flow, and future expansion is something i have to take into account quite seriously.

when you lose a lot of crowdfunders, you have to take an alternate view with regards to the project.

So, not only did i have that happen, but well over 100 N gauge crowdfunders and 250 OO crowdfunders have since the project started, not paid their deposits. This has a cumulative effect.

Don't get me wrong, they might have changed their minds, which is always possible, but subsequent reminders have remained unanswered by 95% of those that originally signed up.

So, i'm left with a quick moving project and its ready to go, but is under budget, so what do i do? 

I could cancel both, but a)that loses credibility,  b) it disappoints the modelllers that want a truly fantastic N or OO model and c) leaves me with a deficit in personal finances for the cad/cam development.

 

What do i do? well the easiest thing is to offer the 92 in both gauges to EVERY DJM stockist, using alternate livery or livery / number combinations at a higher RRP

This has resulted in a very big take up by stockists for models in both gauges and i am also in conversation with some of them for possible weathered versions.

How does this help? well, it will allow me to approach the bank to get a loan to pay for the shortfall based on known income, so that both projects can progress apace.

 

I'll also be announcing the 2 main prizes for crowdfunders (1 in each gauge) for the crowfunders draw today and keeping the crowdfunding project open until the last day of June at 11.59pm when it will be closed permanently with no extensions to give those still on the fence a chance to sign up for these models.

 

10) All standard DJM projects (non crowdfunded) are based on 1 project paying for itself and then profit form that paying for 1 or even 2 projects. its almost like a tree if you will. Project 1 is the trunk, it pays for 2 branches, those 2 pay for 2 more each etc. Meanwhile the trunk and all previous branches continue to pay but this time a wage, profit for me etc. 

So with this in mind i will only produce another project once tooling costs are in place. Crowdfunding has its place, but the traditional way still works well. 

With my business, i have announced lots of stuff that i now regret doing, hence i dont do it anymore (crowdfunding projects aside) and i have stated that crowdfunding project wont be announced unless, like the N gauge King for example, there is an opportunity to bring a model where work has already been done, to market quicker than it might have been other wise.

I will clear the back log, and work is ongoing, with the class 17 in N (first ep) expected any day now.

I will not announce any more crowdfunded models or locomotives until i have completed the existing announcements first. There may be the odd model that sneaks through because of circumstances regarding prices from china etc and although i have plans for further models already in place, they will stay private until such time in the future.

 

11) Why is it taking so long? Well this wasn't the plan. the tree plan was rather easy to go with, until i decided that the J94 needed alternate versions pushing tooling up by double, then costs started to go up in China, (and still do), and cash flow gets thinner and thinner, so i cut back on the tree, and produce one branch at a time.

Add to this the collapse of the pound last year, and it's mullered things even more. Profit on projects has been decimated, and i am constantly watching the exchange rate as even 5 cents change in my favour makes a difference when transferring £100,000.00 to HK or China!

 

To give an example, which i'm not afraid to do here. The N  gauge Mermaid. 

This model was price pointed at RRP of £19.95 with a full correct trade profit for all stockists who decide to sell at that price. I felt that for a small wagon, going over that would cause a loss of sales. Plus i'd always like to give the stockist  full correct opportunity to make profit, after all they are the manufacturers lifeblood in my opinion.

Anyway, if i supply (with a RRP of £19.95) i make a profit , after i pay for shipping (presumably i sell out of 1000 initial models) cad/cam, etc......NOTHING!  (well yes i do actually, so read on)

Why? well i still have to recoup the tooling price that i've shelled out for, and as such because of the high price from China i have to sell 4000 wagons to the trade to break even and actually start making  a profit.

 

If you got this far, well done. Hope i havn't bored you all, but there was so much to explain here, and a lot of it was off thread, for which i apologise.

Cheers and thanks to you all.

 

Nice that i'm an RMweb 'lovely' by the way   

 

Dave

[steve1023]

Dave - Seeing as the class 92 was to be Crowd funded and therefore reliant on the necessary numbers signing up to the project for it to proceed, is it wise to spend your own money on CAD work if you can't be certain in advance you will get the numbers required. Seems to be a large gamble to me - can the CAD work not wait until you have the funding in place.

Steve

[DJM Dave]

Dave - Seeing as the class 92 was to be Crowd funded and therefore reliant on the necessary numbers signing up to the project for it to proceed, is it wise to spend your own money on CAD work if you can't be certain in advance you will get the numbers required. Seems to be a large gamble to me - can the CAD work not wait until you have the funding in place.

Steve

Hi Steve,

 

Thanks for that and it's a good question.

I feel like other manufacturers do to a degree that by showing something tangible like a cad cam if gives a presence to the project.

It also gives a credibility that something's been started and is just not an announcement (which I have been guilty of in some of my previous announcements)

Cheers

Dave

[Great Western]

Dave, thank you for taking the time to provide us with a total summary of the state of play, it all makes sense now and explains a lot of things.

Although I'm not a crowdfunder, I look forward to seeing the Class 92 and wish you luck in your business.

Edited June 10, 2017 by Great Western

[bensanchez43310]

I appreciate the clarification a lot. Can't wait for the 92's to drop and I want 4 DJM ones, 2 crowdfunded and 2 from Stockists, if you take more time, that gives me longer to save up, which is always positive!

 

Ben

[Mark Pelham]

Dave,

 

Thanks for the open and honest update, I think it was probably needed by many supporters, and hopefully was well received.

 

I will gladly continue to support the N Class 92 project; I would appreciate regular updates at a reasonable interval, and I have no objection to, and would encourage announcements of "something is expected to happen by XYZ", which may for various reasons not happen, but an update on or before XYZ to say why it will not be met would be respectfully requested. This would serve to show where progress is being made or expected to be made, and where delays have been caused outside of your control, or maybe even delays created by yourself for the improvement of the intended model (surely a positive thing).

 

I hope this is received in the positive manner that is intended.

 

All the best,

 

Mark

[Simon_H]

Hi Dave, after I email you for an update I've read all the latest info here. I know it may not mean much but I am very happy with your explanations and I will still be interested in the project. I read somewhere that the next invoice was due soon, has this been issued yet? Thanks for your time no rush in reply I know your busy Thanks Simon

Edited June 10, 2017 by VoyagerXC

[DJM Dave]

Hi Dave, after I email you for an update I've read all the latest info here. I know it may not mean much but I am very happy with your explanations and I will still be interested in the project. I read somewhere that the next invoice was due soon, has this been issued yet? Thanks for your time no rush in reply I know your busy Thanks Simon

Hi mate,

 

If all goes well I will be invoicing shortly after the shoe crowdfunding this closes at the end of this month.

If anything changes, which I don't think it will, I'll notify you all here.

Cheers

Dave

[letterspider]

DJM has the DB Schenker in Red as a crownfunder model.

Hattons are offering a DB Schenker in Red too.

Apart from a number on the side being different, how is this a special livery?

 

If I knew Hattons would be selling the same model with sound cheaper than Dave then I would have waited. I don't need a certificate, I want a loco to use on my layout.

The logical conclusion to this is that if others (not all, but just some) take the same view as me, then the whole crowdfunder initiative may not have gotten off the ground in the first place.

Then there would be no DJM Class 92.

 

SO: To protect the principles of the Crowdfunding initiative, now and for the next model, there has to be (in my eyes at least, your view may differ) a benefit to us early investors.

For some that may be a restricted livery.

For others it may be the certificate

But for me it has to be the lower price.

 

Do you mean like a share certificate in the tooling?

[YesTor]

SO: To protect the principles of the Crowdfunding initiative, now and for the next model, there has to be (in my eyes at least, your view may differ) a benefit to us early investors.

For some that may be a restricted livery.

For others it may be the certificate

But for me it has to be the lower price.

 

I think some of us need to sit back for a second and ease off on the pressure a little.  I'm not sure if I speak for anyone else, however I'm simply massively elated that we are (at last) to see a high-spec Class 92 produced at all.  It's all very well everyone declaring that "there's no point in opting for the crowdfunding models and to simply to wait for the store models", but what you all seem to be overlooking is that without the crowdfunding concept in the first place then it is highly likely that the model would not see production at all - and then no one benefits.  There seems to be one hell of a lot of "Wanting one's cake and eating it" kind of attitude around this topic.  I might be alone, but in all honesty:

1. I am not really fussed about "restricted liveries".  If I want a specific livery then I really do not care if I am the only person on the planet to own one, or whether there are ten thousand identical models in existence.  I buy a model for the model alone, not to obtain some superficial feeling of exclusivity.

    

2. Not fussed whatsoever about a certificate.  A piece of paper stating 1 of 200 or whatever is of absolutely no use to me.

    

3. With regard to the price, whether the model is crowdfunded or bought from a store I happen to think that £130 (or thereabouts) is perfectly reasonable for what promises to be a truly high-spec - and if we are lucky groundbreaking model, especially when you consider that the likes of Bachmann are knocking-out their now very old (and dare I say in some cases tired) Class 66, 47, 37 etc at something in the region of £160 for a commissioned model. 

 

Is it not possible for people to simply be content with what (should be) a great model at a reasonable price without continually demanding 'just that little bit more'...

 

As the old saying goes... "You give 'em an inch..."

Edited June 11, 2017 by YesTor

[DRS Crewe On A Mission]

​Hi all,

 

Please could anyone tell me what trains the DB Schenker and GBRF Class 92s work?

 

Also please can anyone tell me what wagons or coaches are on these trains?

 

Thank you very much in advance.

[Damo666]

​Hi all,

 

Please could anyone tell me what trains the DB Schenker and GBRF Class 92s work?

 

Also please can anyone tell me what wagons or coaches are on these trains?

 

Thank you very much in advance.

Oooooh. Sounds like you may be lining up for another purchase before the deadline.

 

Why might I guess this?

 

Because I'm also thinking along the same lines; wondering if I can justify another Class 92 in another livery and how it might fit into my plans.

 

So I too will be looking forward to see what answers you get.

[DRS Crewe On A Mission]

Oooooh. Sounds like you may be lining up for another purchase before the deadline.

 

Why might I guess this?

 

Because I'm also thinking along the same lines; wondering if I can justify another Class 92 in another livery and how it might fit into my plans.

 

So I too will be looking forward to see what answers you get.

 

I'm in exactly the same position.

 

I only noticed this thread around three weeks ago, so I have spoken to Dave and he answered a few questions and confirmed that the deadline for pre-ordering the crowdfunder models is the last day of June which is next Friday.

 

I really don't want to miss out so I am currently working out which ones I can afford to buy. I'm particularly interested in DB Schenker 92016, GBRF 92032 and Caledonian 92033.

 

Have you got a particular loco/s that you would like to buy?

[Damo666]

Have you got a particular loco/s that you would like to buy?

The GBRF and the EWS liveries look great.

 

I'm looking at modelling from 2000 to date, and generally South Wales and the South East of England (I'm sure I come across as a total philistine to many here, as in 'How could you possible model South East England and South Wales?' and the truth is, I don't know either, but I've lived in both places, so there!).

 

On this basis, perhaps even the non-rivit counter forum members would probably throw their hands in the air and advise me to just model anything; why not have some BR MKI coaches mixed with LNER coal trucks, and whilst I'm at it, throw in Thomas and friends for good measure.

 

But modern image, this millennium to date and if I can avoid an 'everything and anything' approach and have some semblance of logic, I'd be happy. So again, looking forward to seeing what answers you get.

 

I'm not sure about the DB Schenker red, I've seen this on several RTR locos and the red just looks very plasticy.

[njee20]

They haul all sorts of stuff! Off the top of my head...

 

IKA Megafrets

IFA Multimodal flats

IPA car carriers

IWA(?) cargowaggons

ICA 'Silver bullet' China clay tankers

 

I think GBRF use them on intermodals mainly, so FEAs and possibly KFAs in the mix.

[DRS Crewe On A Mission]

They haul all sorts of stuff! Off the top of my head...

 

IKA Megafrets

IFA Multimodal flats

IPA car carriers

IWA(?) cargowaggons

ICA 'Silver bullet' China clay tankers

 

I think GBRF use them on intermodals mainly, so FEAs and possibly KFAs in the mix.

 

Thank you very much for the reply and for letting me know. I really appreciate it.

 

I already have some Dapol IKA wagons with some Tesco containers on the top. Do DB Schenker run them with the Tesco containers on?

 

Acquiring some IPA and ICA wagons is also an option.

 

I don't have any FEAs or KFAs at the moment so I can either pass my IKAs off as these as well to save buying more or invest in some.

 

Thank you very much for letting me know.

 

Do you know the headcodes and where the trains run too and from using the above wagons?

 

Thank you very much in advance.

[DRS Crewe On A Mission]

The GBRF and the EWS liveries look great.

 

I'm looking at modelling from 2000 to date, and generally South Wales and the South East of England (I'm sure I come across as a total philistine to many here, as in 'How could you possible model South East England and South Wales?' and the truth is, I don't know either, but I've lived in both places, so there!).

 

On this basis, perhaps even the non-rivit counter forum members would probably throw their hands in the air and advise me to just model anything; why not have some BR MKI coaches mixed with LNER coal trucks, and whilst I'm at it, throw in Thomas and friends for good measure.

 

But modern image, this millennium to date and if I can avoid an 'everything and anything' approach and have some semblance of logic, I'd be happy. So again, looking forward to seeing what answers you get.

 

I'm not sure about the DB Schenker red, I've seen this on several RTR locos and the red just looks very plasticy.

 

I think the GBRF and EWS liveries look good too.

 

I have also thought in the past that the DB Red didn't look quite right but it has grown on me recently especially seeing photos of 66s and 67s in DB Red.

 

I particularly like the Caledonian Teal livery. I'm sure that either Hornby, Oxford or another manufacturer will announce the MK5s to run with these once they are delivered and enter service. This would make a nice lengthy train with a 92 at the helm and several coaches in tow.

[newbryford]

Thank you very much for the reply and for letting me know. I really appreciate it.

 

I already have some Dapol IKA wagons with some Tesco containers on the top. Do DB Schenker run them with the Tesco containers on?

 

Acquiring some IPA and ICA wagons is also an option.

 

I don't have any FEAs or KFAs at the moment so I can either pass my IKAs off as these as well to save buying more or invest in some.

 

Thank you very much for letting me know.

 

Do you know the headcodes and where the trains run too and from using the above wagons?

 

Thank you very much in advance.

 

If you go on flickr.com and use your required loco numbers as search terms, you'll turn up all the info you need.

Get the headcode and then use for further searching.

It's quite easy to put in dates to limit the search.

 

 

 

Cheers,

Mick

Edited June 23, 2017 by newbryford

[DJM Dave]

I think the GBRF and EWS liveries look good too.

 

I have also thought in the past that the DB Red didn't look quite right but it has grown on me recently especially seeing photos of 66s and 67s in DB Red.

 

I particularly like the Caledonian Teal livery. I'm sure that either Hornby, Oxford or another manufacturer will announce the MK5s to run with these once they are delivered and enter service. This would make a nice lengthy train with a 92 at the helm and several coaches in tow.

I know of 1 company that has asked for exclusivity in their permission request to do MK5 coaches, both sleeper and otherwise.

[njee20]

The Tesco trains are usually DRS hauled, but certainly have been hauled by EWS/DBS 92s variously, not sure if the contract changed at some point. No idea on headcodes I'm afraid.

[DRS Crewe On A Mission]

If you go on flickr.com and use your required loco numbers as search terms, you'll turn up all the info you need.

Get the headcode and then use for further searching.

It's quite easy to put in dates to limit the search.

 

 

 

Cheers,

Mick

 

Thank you Mick.

 

I didn't even think of searching the headcodes in Flickr. That's brilliant.

 

Thank you very much.

[DRS Crewe On A Mission]

I know of 1 company that has asked for exclusivity in their permission request to do MK5 coaches, both sleeper and otherwise.

 

Thank you very much for letting me know Dave. I really appreciate it. This would be brilliant. I would definitely be buying some of these to go with a 92.

 

I will be messaging you before next Friday with my order for the 92s. I am currently still deciding. I'm currently working out what wagons and coaches I would need to buy to run with them.

 

The Tesco trains are usually DRS hauled, but certainly have been hauled by EWS/DBS 92s variously, not sure if the contract changed at some point. No idea on headcodes I'm afraid.

 

Thank you very much for letting me know. I really appreciate it.

 

I know that some of the Tesco trains are currently worked by DRS 66s, 68s and 88s but like you say I was sure that EWS/DB worked them for some time. This is good because it means that I don't need to buy new intermodal wagons to create a prototypical train.

[Jack374]

From memory, the 'Tesco Express' is 4S43 in the morning and 4M48 in the evening, and regularly had DBS 92 haulage circa 2011 to 2013. Interestingly on the wagon front, because DRS ran the train but hired in DB locos, the 92s hauled IKA megafrets and also IDA Super Low wagons which have recently been released by Dapol, indeed I have multiple videos of mixed rakes hauled by DBS locos.

 

The class also regularly handled the 4M25 Mossend to Daventry containers, which were normally Malcolm's with a few Unit45 or Asda/Co-Op/Argos boxes now and again. 6S94 or 6S93 is the Wednesdays only Dollands Moor to Irvine China clays, with 6M76 being the return under DBS operation and 6M74 under GBRf. 6L48 are the Garston to Dagenham cars, but I'm not sure of the return.

 

Then there's the sleepers, of which 1S25 and 1S26 are the northbound runs and 1M16/1M11 are the southbound workings. They're just the usual runs, but the class have turned up on all sorts, including engineer's workings, enterprises, new multiple unit moves and railtours to name a few.

 

Here is 92041 on 'The Retro Electric Scot' railtour seen at Preston in 2014:

 

And anyone ordering more than one DB/EWS loco may be interested in this: 92019, 92027 and 92025 on a loaded test run in 2012. I was lucky to see this, and at the time didn't know about the 4 locos doing tests on a rake of coal hoppers over Shap:

 

It may also be worth looking in magazines such as Rail Express and their 'Power by the Hour' section, which listed all the notable moves of each class of loco, and is also useful for pictures of notable workings.

 

Hope this helps, if you want any pictures I'll see what I've got hidden away!

 

Thanks,

Jack.

Edited June 23, 2017 by Jack374

[DJM Dave]

Railways illustrated did a feature on the 92's a while back.

 

It's worth getting if you can as it covers some of the liveries, plus workings etc.

 

It's very entertaining, and totally recommended.

 

Cheers

Dave

[slg]

​Hi all,

 

Please could anyone tell me what trains the DB Schenker and GBRF Class 92s work?

 

Also please can anyone tell me what wagons or coaches are on these trains?

 

Thank you very much in advance.

 

This train is why I'm getting the GBRf 92

 

 

And now with an added bonus.