NEW OO gauge Crowdfunded Class 92 initiative

[BR(S)]

Unless I have missed something here, Dave has not actually posted anything on this forum, hence lots of complaints about his lack of contact. Another member posted what Dave had provided to those taking part in the crowdfunding of the Class 92 and that statement included the following wording "As you are probably no doubt aware, a ‘falling out’ ( to put it kindly) with the ‘old’ factory left me with no choice but to write off the OO cad/can and proceed with a more reliable one who literally fell into my lap."

 

As I say, I may have missed something but that statement is purely a statement of fact, he says he has fallen out with the factory but doesn't say what the falling out was about or who was at fault. Another member has said "one side of a story (one which didn't refrain from painting a rather unflattering picture of the factory)" where was that unflattering picture painted and did it come from Dave? If it did, I for one missed it. If there is a dispute between Dave and another organisation then why should we have any right to "make a judgement about what happened". This is for the two parties to sort out between themselves, or take to the courts if necessary.

 

I apologise if I am offending anyone but it just seems that some people think they have a right to adjudicate on matters which are basically none of their business. Should we not give Dave some space to try and sort out the problems he is having and hopefully produce some of the models which have been promised?

 

I apologise once again if I may have offended anyone, as that was not my intention but it just seems that Dave can do no good as far as some members of this forum are concerned.

 

Regards

 

Roddy

This is actually a good summary. For anyone reading this thread with a detachment from anything other than being an investor or interested in the process of crowdfunded models, the last few pages of this thread make for REALLY depressing reading and show the worst of RMweb. It's actually been the first time since joining the forum years ago that I've thought "Do I really want to be a member of a forum that can be like this?".

 

Of course people who have invested in the 92 (and APT) should expect updates on progress but, speaking as someone who has ordered three 92s and one APT, I am satisfied that this has been happening. Dave has been more than transparent, even with the difficulties he's had.

 

I can only assume there are those on here that have a personal vendetta against Dave. Sad, very very sad.

Edited December 13, 2018 by BR(S)

[newbryford]

This is actually a good summary. For anyone reading this thread with a detachment from anything other than being an investor or interested in the process of crowdfunded models, the last few pages of this thread make for REALLY depressing reading and show the worst of RMweb. It's actually been the first time since joining the forum years ago that I've thought "Do I really want to be a member of a forum that can be like this?".

 

Of course people who have invested in the 92 (and APT) should expect updates on progress but, speaking as someone who has ordered three 92s and one APT, I am satisfied that this has been happening. Dave has been more than transparent, even with the difficulties he's had.

 

I can only assume there are those on here that have a personal vendetta against Dave. Sad, very very sad.

 

No vendetta. It's just that the transparency is becoming a bit opaque.

 

Agreed about the updates, but as yet, Dave still hasn't posted the email on his website as promised to do so by Sunday just gone. 

And I quote:

 

Next Sunday i will upload this pdf to my web site home page for general consumption.

 

The reason I can quote that is because a friend rightly or wrongly (and I'm not going to discuss that here) sent me a copy because he knows I've pre-ordered one

I never received - and it seems that others haven't -  the email from Dave and I'm still awaiting a reply from trying to contact him 7 or more days ago

I know he has (or athe very least, had) my original email, as my Paypal receipt from October 2016 contains it.

[BR(S)]

No vendetta. It's just that the transparency is becoming a bit opaque.

 

Agreed about the updates, but as yet, Dave still hasn't posted the email on his website as promised to do so by Sunday just gone. 

And I quote:

 

 

Next Sunday i will upload this pdf to my web site home page for general consumption.

 

 

The reason I can quote that is because a friend rightly or wrongly (and I'm not going to discuss that here) sent me a copy because he knows I've pre-ordered one

I never received - and it seems that others haven't -  the email from Dave and I'm still awaiting a reply from trying to contact him 7 or more days ago

I know he has (or athe very least, had) my original email, as my Paypal receipt from October 2016 contains it.

This is all something I understand and is very reasonable. Not sure what's happened with your contact with Dave; I've had to contact him a couple of times in the last few months over things like a change of address and the replies have been prompt and helpful.

 

I can fully understand Dave stepping away from RMweb though and returning to updates only when he's got something to actually tell us and via his own communication channels. I agree that putting the latest info up on his website would be useful and I hope he does so.

 

As I say, all very reasonable. But the last few pages of this thread: depressing stuff.

[MGR Hooper!]

Can't stand up for Dave, not had a pleasant time dealing with him, his methods of running his business is obviously flawed and easily noticeably. He's become a joke amongst modellers and he's yet to deliver a lot of promised goods. Being ambitious is fine, being over ambitious and poking ones nose everywhere isn't sensible.

His trouble on RMweb stems from the fact that more than focusing on his own work he decided to poke his nose elsewhere trying to tell other companies what to do and then also let quite a few confidential things slip.

Alot of retailers who partnered with him have gone their own ways and have made much better items by themselves. The proof is already out there. Like others have said he's getting his fair share of criticism which every manufacturer and smaller supplier gets. It's only normal. There's no point in all the DJ supporters making a scene over this.

Every manufacturer and supplier have gone through issues, be it personal or business, but they carried on. So should Dave. He needs to learn to accept that there's negativity. He's not done everything right either. He actut made more mistakes than anything. DJ for me today says one thing "Over ambitious, not focused, too many promises, too many bold statements and too little delivered"

These are just my opinions from what I've seen DJ do over the last 5 years. You're entitled to agree or disagree, it's just my opinion and the reason why I'll never support any DJ venture no matter how bad I want a model. I'll happily buy a Hornby Class 92 and design a detailing kit myself and bring it up to modern standards myself.

 

PS: To all those hardcore DJM supporters out there, no I don't have any personal grudge against the man, if at all I wanted him to succeed and in fact sent him a couple of PMs years ago regarding doing a Class 92. So the Class 92 is something I really want. But DJ has done a fair bit of things that has put me off. So I'm sorry if this post offends you, but I'm just as concerned as everyone else and looking through all of DJM's topics, there's quite a few disappointed people.

Edited December 15, 2018 by MGR Hooper!

[Jack374]

DJ for me today says one thing "Over ambitious, not focused, too many promises, too many bold statements and too little delivered"

These are just my opinions from what I've seen DJ do over the last 5 years. You're entitled to agree or disagree, it's just my opinion and the reason why I'll never support any DJ venture no matter how bad I want a model. I'll happily buy a Hornby Class 92 and design a detailing kit myself and bring it up to modern standards myself.

If you are not interested in the project then why post on this thread? Surely this thread is for the class 92 being developed, yet it has turned into a thread debating DJM, his ways of conducting business and why people disagree with his ways of operating a business. If people wish to continue with this discussion about Dave’s business strategy then they should start a thread specific to this.

 

Only the last sentence in the above post refers to the class 92. Many posts in recent pages are similar, and I feel therefore are not entirely relevant to this thread.

 

Again, my opinions alone which are not meant to offend anyone, but I feel this thread has deviated massively from talking about the proposed model. I just want a high spec 92...

 

Jack.

[njee20]

I must say I find all the baying for blood a little excessive. What’s happened historically betweeen Dave and any third parties is just that, history. We have no entitlement whatsoever to any background or explanation from Dave, and I’m sure most would rather he looked forward and focused on delivering products than lingered on past events.

[MGR Hooper!]

If you are not interested in the project then why post on this thread? Surely this thread is for the class 92 being developed, yet it has turned into a thread debating DJM, his ways of conducting business and why people disagree with his ways of operating a business. If people wish to continue with this discussion about Dave’s business strategy then they should start a thread specific to this.

 

Only the last sentence in the above post refers to the class 92. Many posts in recent pages are similar, and I feel therefore are not entirely relevant to this thread.

 

Again, my opinions alone which are not meant to offend anyone, but I feel this thread has deviated massively from talking about the proposed model. I just want a high spec 92...

 

Jack.

I'm sorry, who said I cannot post here?

 

As someone who did have interest and actually had one on order, I am entitled to post here. There's no hard and fast rules about who can post where. I was unhappy with what I saw and the way DJ operates and I cancelled it. That doesn't mean I lose my rights to post here.

 

The Class 92 was and always will be one of my favourite British locomotives. I was excited when it was announced but shortly after that didn't like the way DJ was interacting and carrying out his business. So I cancelled it. There's a good N gauge one coming out and for OO gauge I can just easily pick up a Lima/Hornby one and put my 3D modelling skills to use designing a kit.

 

But sure...whatever, if it offends you guys so much! Sorry.....

Edited December 14, 2018 by MGR Hooper!

[Ely_South]

No vendetta. It's just that the transparency is becoming a bit opaque.

 

Agreed about the updates, but as yet, Dave still hasn't posted the email on his website as promised to do so by Sunday just gone. 

And I quote:

 

Next Sunday i will upload this pdf to my web site home page for general consumption.

 

The reason I can quote that is because a friend rightly or wrongly (and I'm not going to discuss that here) sent me a copy because he knows I've pre-ordered one

I never received - and it seems that others haven't -  the email from Dave and I'm still awaiting a reply from trying to contact him 7 or more days ago

I know he has (or athe very least, had) my original email, as my Paypal receipt from October 2016 contains it.

 

I'll add my voice to Mick's regarding communication - I didn't receive the update a couple of weeks ago, and am still waiting for a reply from Dave having contacted him over a week ago to point this out. Dave managed to invoice me at that email address, so he's certainly had it noted correctly at one point. Like Mick, I'll add that I have now seen the message via a third party, but I won't elaborate further.

 

As someone with no first-hand knowledge of Dave's capabilities, I can only judge him on what I've seen on this one project - and that's over two years of very little, other than an invoice (which was paid on receipt). Not a single email update - Just what I've seen posted here. And to add, Dave's own website has never provided (and still doesn't) any reports of progress.

 

There needs to be something very tangible fill the vacuum this quarter I'm afraid, as without that I cannot possibly justify putting more of my (family's) money into this.

 

Here's hoping.

 

Rob

[njee20]

I'm sorry, who said I cannot post here?

 

As someone who did have interest and actually had one on order, I am entitled to post here. There's no hard and fast rules about who can post where. I was unhappy with what I saw and the way DJ operates and I cancelled it. That doesn't mean I lose my rights to post here.

 

The Class 92 was and always will be one of my favourite British locomotives. I was excited when it was announced but shortly after that didn't like the way DJ was interacting and carrying out his business. So I cancelled it. There's a good N gauge one coming out and for OO gauge I can just easily pick up a Lima/Hornby one and put my 3D modelling skills to use designing a kit.

 

But sure...whatever, if it offends you guys so much! Sorry.....

Of course you’re right, you can post wherever you want, but c’mon, surely you see it’s just a bit destructive wading into posts just to mouth off about Dave because of some disliking you may have? Pointing out legitimate flaws is ok, I’d say helpful even (although clearly many backers disagree), but just coming in shouting “WAAAHH, I HATE DAVE” is just unhelpful to all and unnecessarily untagonistic.

[The Stationmaster]

Might I suggest (in the manner of teaching granny to suck eggs, sorry) that it's always worth looking in the spam email box because some programs automatically dump multiple address emails in there instead of the inbox.  I understand that one such program does so if the email has more than four addressees and some devices other than PCs have a similar sort of habit.

 

As far as commenting on DJM business practices, such as communication, is concerned a look at numerous threads etc on RMweb would seem to indicate that such comment is far from unusual and that comments about communication (usually lack of) and delays to promised models, and long promised models, are the everyday fare of a web forum (certainly of this one).  Such comments are often provoked by lack of information when promised progress is not being reported (perhaps implying nothing has happened?) or when promised communication hasn't happened.  So nothing unusual in that being said here should similar things be happening or not happening.

[jjb1970]

Unless I have missed something here, Dave has not actually posted anything on this forum, hence lots of complaints about his lack of contact.  Another member posted what Dave had provided to those taking part in the crowdfunding of the Class 92 and that statement included the following wording "As you are probably no doubt aware, a ‘falling out’ ( to put it kindly) with the ‘old’ factory left me with no choice but to write off the OO cad/can and proceed with a more reliable one who literally fell into my lap."

 

As I say, I may have missed something but that statement is purely a statement of fact, he says he has fallen out with the factory but doesn't say what the falling out was about or who was at fault.  Another member has said "one side of a story (one which didn't refrain from painting a rather unflattering picture of the factory)" where was that unflattering picture painted and did it come from Dave?  If it did, I for one missed it.  If there is a dispute between Dave and another organisation then why should we have any right to "make a judgement about what happened".  This is for the two parties to sort out between themselves, or take to the courts if necessary.

 

I apologise if I am offending anyone but it just seems that some people think they have a right to adjudicate on matters which are basically none of their business.  Should we not give Dave some space to try and sort out the problems he is having and hopefully produce some of the models which have been promised?

 

I apologise once again if I may have offended anyone, as that was not my intention but it just seems that Dave can do no good as far as some members of this forum are concerned.

 

Regards

 

Roddy

 

 

Do you consider the following two posts lifted from the Class 74 thread to be flattering towards Chinese factories?

 

Hi Bill,

 

If you don’t receive items you have paid for, you basically lose the monies paid (simplistic I know as there are acceptions). This is the same for cad/cams or work from China.

 

In recent years we have seen hold outs from factories in China that I am pretty sure certain companies had air tight contracts with, where tooling gets held to ransom, as that company wishes to move the tooling to another factory, work that’s promised and not done etc.

 

They won’t work on credit, so you have no choice but to pay an agreed sum, whether it is a tooling release fee, or a cad/cam.

Although getting to that position where you have to consider the ‘nuclear’ option is a real pain, it has and does happen.

It’s getting a refund on work paid for that’s almost impossible.

 

It’s worth remembering the culture too, and getting to this option, will not ‘save face’ with the factory / designer. Working a solution that ‘saves face’ is a huge problem, and usually takes cash, hard cash.

 

Cheers

Dave

 

 

They will, if i wanted the cad/cam etc hold them to ransom, as thats their way im afraid, even if they had a spurt on and completed it. However as they had done nothing of any tangible work on it in all that time, its basically money p'd up the wall and gone.

they could flog it off to another, but the chassis would need developing as the class 71 was to donate the chassis.

there is documented 'form' of this happening with China production and other model railway companies worldwide, and you either pay and eat the bill, or you lose.

 

luckily, i cannot say i've lost anything except a 4 figure sum for the cad development, which in itself is bad enough though.

 

You could also look earlier in this thread, or the class 17 thread amongst others. The above two posts are quite cleverly written (either by accident or design) however at no point when certain people arrived at conclusions inferred did DJM step in to correct misassumptions or erroneous conclusions. Therefore I think it is entirely fair to say that the factory (or factories) should be allowed to offer their own view if they wish to do so.

 

Why is it one company that seems to see a need to insult factories on a forum? If you look at the Kernow D6xx thread you will see that once they took the project in house after years of delays when it was contracted out to Dapol and then DJM the factory issues appear to have evaporated and a project going back 8 or 9 years looks like it will be delivered imminently. Are Kernow just better at managing suppliers? Hattons also seem to have decided they can manage their projects more efficiently themselves and appear to be doing so.

[Covkid]

You could also look earlier in this thread, or the class 17 thread amongst others. The above two posts are quite cleverly written (either by accident or design) however at no point when certain people arrived at conclusions inferred did DJM step in to correct misassumptions or erroneous conclusions. Therefore I think it is entirely fair to say that the factory (or factories) should be allowed to offer their own view if they wish to do so.

 

Why is it one company that seems to see a need to insult factories on a forum? If you look at the Kernow D6xx thread you will see that once they took the project in house after years of delays when it was contracted out to Dapol and then DJM the factory issues appear to have evaporated and a project going back 8 or 9 years looks like it will be delivered imminently. Are Kernow just better at managing suppliers? Hattons also seem to have decided they can manage their projects more efficiently themselves and appear to be doing so.

 

I am inclined to agree "JJB".  Dave Jones appears to have tried to break out of the traditional method of model railway production, after choosing to go it alone as DJ Models. He clearly had contacts in the industry to achieve what he has with some products under his belt.

 

The problem I identify is that Dave is a "normal bloke" who doesn't have a lot of disposable cash to throw into the model making process. He has told us that. Having a model produced is an expensive game and until the item flies completely off the shelves and the payment comes in, then the production costs need to be borne by someone. Dave has tried this in the form of crowdfunding several times, but does crowdfunding help the producer who is dealing with production issues ?  It is no use blaming the Chinese because they will be wanting cast iron guarantees of payment for their services, and if they have a western company come along and mess them around, it won't end too well.

 

We only know the Dave Jones side of the story but there are clearly issues going in China - the Sanda Khan factory move being one.  The Chinese want money, and "shoestring" crowdfunded projects don't really have a lot of that.  in addition, crowdfunders need trust in their project manager to deliver on their investment.

 

i am sensing that most new UK model railway projects these days involve someone "here" producing the CAD and sending it to China with the necessary funds to produce the model. Perhaps Dave Jones should be doing that instant of expecting (and presumably paying for) the Chinese to produce the CADs before they start work on the chosen model.     

[njee20]

I think transparency and oversharing has probably been a failing of Dave's, frankly. I do agree that a lot of issues he seems to have appear to be unique to him. There were livery issues on the 59s too, where he couldn't get permission to do various Aggregate Industries liveries IIRC, which led in part to the cancellation of the project.

 

Either these issues are unique to Dave, or he's unique in sharing the information so publicly. Where it's an issue IMO is the slightly flippant nature of some of these comments, whether by accident or design, with lots of "I wish I could say more mate" type comments, which can come across a bit unprofessional, and lead people to think Dave owes them something as a casual friend, rather than a representative of a professional organisation. Dave appears to have the ability to deliver products, and good ones by most accounts, but instead we get repeatedly sidetracked into soap-opera like tangents. People don't need to know that livery licences haven't been granted, factories have 'kept' CADs or anything of the ilk. By sharing just a little bit too much too often Dave has made a rod for his own back which is hard to recover from.

 

Again, I'm sure I'm not alone in wanting him to deliver a 92, not dwell on factory swapping sagas and what not. Other brands have swapped factories/manufacturers mid-project and it's a footnote at best.

[woodenhead]

It's a footnote when the model actually appears, all the woes of the Warship saga went away when EPs turned up.

 

Dave is promising the EP of the OO 92 in February at Stafford, that does sound challenging given he needs to collect more funds in the form of second payments. But if there is an EP in two months then people will begin to forget.

[melmoth]

Either these issues are unique to Dave, or he's unique in sharing the information so publicly. Where it's an issue IMO is the slightly flippant nature of some of these comments, whether by accident or design, with lots of "I wish I could say more mate" type comments, which can come across a bit unprofessional, and lead people to think Dave owes them something as a casual friend, rather than a representative of a professional organisation. Dave appears to have the ability to deliver products, and good ones by most accounts, but instead we get repeatedly sidetracked into soap-opera like tangents. People don't need to know that livery licences haven't been granted, factories have 'kept' CADs or anything of the ilk. By sharing just a little bit too much too often Dave has made a rod for his own back which is hard to recover from.

 

I think this is absolutely spot on. It is the avoidable background noise that has made DJM look unprofessional to me - whether that's been to do with late filing of paperwork, or website design issues or Paypal stuff. I have no doubt about DJM being able to produce a decent model, but my confidence in the business itself is somewhat less assured than it once was.

[Vistisen]

Might I suggest (in the manner of teaching granny to suck eggs, sorry) that it's always worth looking in the spam email box because some programs automatically dump multiple address emails in there instead of the inbox.  I understand that one such program does so if the email has more than four addressees and some devices other than PCs have a similar sort of habit.

 

As far as commenting on DJM business practices, such as communication, is concerned a look at numerous threads etc on RMweb would seem to indicate that such comment is far from unusual and that comments about communication (usually lack of) and delays to promised models, and long promised models, are the everyday fare of a web forum (certainly of this one).  Such comments are often provoked by lack of information when promised progress is not being reported (perhaps implying nothing has happened?) or when promised communication hasn't happened.  So nothing unusual in that being said here should similar things be happening or not happening.

I would hope that a mail like that is sent to a bcc addres list and therefore does not appear to have multiple receivers to each mail client.

Edited December 14, 2018 by Vistisen

[Claude_Dreyfus]

The last couple of posts I'm afraid do sum the situation up. For crowd-funding it is fundamentally a question of trust. I don't doubt that Dave is more than capable of producing excellent models, but do I trust him with hundreds of pounds of my own money to come up with said excellent models? In a word, No.

 

That is not a personal vendetta, or trolling; simply what I have seen has been a lot of promises unfulfilled, a lot of self-imposed deadlines missed, uncertainty around the financial and personal discipline required to run your own company and to handle other people's money, plenty of excuses for delays and yet still lots of plans and future projects. I see lots of band-wagons jumped on (crowd-funding, coreless motors, even the Q6 (which despite protestations to the contrary, came suspiciously close to Bachmann using it as an example of a 'fringe' model they weren't ever likely to produce)). This is a poisonous combination when statements are made saying effectively you invest at your own risk. Whilst crowd-funding is just that to an extent, you look to the organisers for reassurance they know what they are doing. If that isn't there, then what hope is there?

 

I hear lots of claims to past successes with previous employers, yet for all the bouquets (of which there are plenty), none of the brickbats are acknowledged (a pathological failure to deliver on time, school-boy errors in liveries, suspect QC and plenty of land-grabs without any serious prospect of delivery). Makes you wonder what the previous employers make of these claims for success, were the successes all down to him? I suspect the class 68 has put paid to this argument; they can manage perfectly well thank you.

 

My overall impression here is someone with a great creative streak. Someone who has an obvious talent for conceiving and designing models, as well as the required enthusiasm for producing great models. But one who appears to have no discipline, business sense or organisation. In many ways it would be far better for him to partner up with somebody streetwise and experienced in running a business. Someone who can instill the discipline he needs to gain people's trust.

 

Until that happens, I cannot see the necessary trust from sufficient people to make most, if not all, of these projects succeed. Believe it or not, I too wish him well and hope his projects succeed, but in many cases I feel that unless he makes significant changes to his working practices, that will not happen.

[MGR Hooper!]

The last couple of posts I'm afraid do sum the situation up. For crowd-funding it is fundamentally a question of trust. I don't doubt that Dave is more than capable of producing excellent models, but do I trust him with hundreds of pounds of my own money to come up with said excellent models? In a word, No.

 

That is not a personal vendetta, or trolling; simply what I have seen has been a lot of promises unfulfilled, a lot of self-imposed deadlines missed, uncertainty around the financial and personal discipline required to run your own company and to handle other people's money, plenty of excuses for delays and yet still lots of plans and future projects. I see lots of band-wagons jumped on (crowd-funding, coreless motors, even the Q6 (which despite protestations to the contrary, came suspiciously close to Bachmann using it as an example of a 'fringe' model they weren't ever likely to produce)). This is a poisonous combination when statements are made saying effectively you invest at your own risk. Whilst crowd-funding is just that to an extent, you look to the organisers for reassurance they know what they are doing. If that isn't there, then what hope is there?

 

I hear lots of claims to past successes with previous employers, yet for all the bouquets (of which there are plenty), none of the brickbats are acknowledged (a pathological failure to deliver on time, school-boy errors in liveries, suspect QC and plenty of land-grabs without any serious prospect of delivery). Makes you wonder what the previous employers make of these claims for success, were the successes all down to him? I suspect the class 68 has put paid to this argument; they can manage perfectly well thank you.

 

My overall impression here is someone with a great creative streak. Someone who has an obvious talent for conceiving and designing models, as well as the required enthusiasm for producing great models. But one who appears to have no discipline, business sense or organisation. In many ways it would be far better for him to partner up with somebody streetwise and experienced in running a business. Someone who can instill the discipline he needs to gain people's trust.

 

Until that happens, I cannot see the necessary trust from sufficient people to make most, if not all, of these projects succeed. Believe it or not, I too wish him well and hope his projects succeed, but in many cases I feel that unless he makes significant changes to his working practices, that will not happen.

Well said....well better than how I've worded my post which seems to have offended at least one DJM customer.

[JSpencer]

It's a footnote when the model actually appears, all the woes of the Warship saga went away when EPs turned up.

Dave is promising the EP of the OO 92 in February at Stafford, that does sound challenging given he needs to collect more funds in the form of second payments. But if there is an EP in two months then people will begin to forget.

Earlier I posted that February was seriously optimistic based on too many factors going right. Crowd fiunders should not be disappointed if it does not happen. Even if it appears in June, that is still good progress.

 

What will grind people is if they don,t see anything happening anywhere over the next few/several months. Newsletter means nothing if there is no tangible proof, but equally, you are not going to have something to report every month or even every few months either.

 

Note, he is not alone submitting accounts late, there is another group here which had the same. In any case These figures can be twisted in all sorts of way (for example assets like tooling can be set to make them look more than they are or less than they are worth to within certain limits) what counts in the end is cash.

The other disasters (paypal, website etc) can be put down little or no experience and layman ignorance in those areas, I don,t hold that against him.

Com is poor, or rather marketing skills. I am stunned by how low some figures quoted for a go/no go in these projects. I could finance the lot myself! The figures could be multiplied by 10, with better marketing, but then maybe his resources to do bigger production runs don,t exist. We are thus left with a few hundred crowd funders pushing a project forwards. While I remain confident for delivery, he has not optimised his return from the market. But maybe he does not want 1000s of orders and is happy to be a cottage industry RTR producer.

 

Maybe he needs someone to do that for him, but the current business model will not support a partner. Or maybe training on his weak spots.

Edited December 15, 2018 by JSpencer

[SWT442]

Not one to comment on these things, normally just read from the sidelines, but I must admit I'm feeling the same way as others in this thread.

 

I've only ordered the one Class 92, and am somewhat thankful that it's only the one, as now I've just accepted the fact that I've spent £50 or so on something that'll not appear. I did get the e-mail from Dave, and was quite excited to see what it contained and what progression had been made, but found it a bit something and nothing to be honest. I do partially agree with a comment MGR Hooper made: DJ for me today says one thing "Over ambitious, not focused, too many promises, too many bold statements and too little delivered"

 

The DJM section of the forum has a few threads for models that have been announced, but very few have actually appeared. The thread cropping up for the ATP-P was the point that I started to kiss goodbye to this project and my money. It just seemed far too much considering so little has been produced so far. From the models that have been produced, they do look good and am in no doubt that what does come next will be of good quality, but what will actually be next? I know it's easy so sit to one side and critisize, but to me it seems Dave just tried to do far too much far too quick, especially with the bulk of it all crowdfunded. People do need to see someone deliver on their promise, to build up the trust required to get more people on board with what they're trying to acheive. I personally think RevolutioN have done well with this, and have shown that the crowdfunding method can work and be trusted in.

 

Having spoken to Dave on several occasions, most recently at the Fareham show, I find him to be a nice guy, easy to talk to and happy to discuss the ups and downs on what he's trying to do. I wish him no ill will, and do truly hope that everything works out for the best. But for now, I've gone from looking forward my model arriving and the conclusion of this project to being somewhat sceptical of anything coming of it.

 

Fingers very much crossed for what the Stafford show brings...

 

Andy.

[dogbox321]

To be honest, I can see the frustrations of some on this site, and also the perspective of those who back DJM.

 

Ultimately - the only thing that matters is the models he delivers.  Likewise I am sure, that if he can get his models moving then actually, it would be the most positive and productive thing for him and his business.  

 

As they say "talk is cheap", and I have said on many an occasion, including on DJM threads to Dave, that "Actions speak louder than words".

 

The fact Dave is spending less time on RMweb, is a double edged sword - perhaps as I have said - concentrate on the models, and be busy getting these to fruition, not replying on RMweb, alternatively , he may be just fed up of the back stabbing.  Hopefully, its a middle ground, and for the sake of DJM and the hobby, I hope we will start to see new models soon. 

 

The future is in your hands DJM - either you can prove your doubters right, or your supporters.  Hopefully, the latter group will be victorious, but the ball is firmly in your court, and hopefully you will repay their loyalty and faith demonstrated by investing their hard earned cash into your ventures, by delivering your promises.....

 

Regardless of which side of the fence you sit on, I think everyone would actually like the crowdfunded projects to materialise.

 

Regards,

 

C.

[adb968008]

[ name=Roddy Angus" post="3398168" timestamp="1544743518]Unless I have missed something here, Dave has not actually posted anything on this forum, hence lots of complaints about his lack of contact.  Another member posted what Dave had provided to those taking part in the crowdfunding of the Class 92 and that statement included the following wording "As you are probably no doubt aware, a ‘falling out’ ( to put it kindly) with the ‘old’ factory left me with no choice but to write off the OO cad/can and proceed with a more reliable one who literally fell into my lap."

 

As I say, I may have missed something but that statement is purely a statement of fact, he says he has fallen out with the factory but doesn't say what the falling out was about or who was at fault.  Another member has said "one side of a story (one which didn't refrain from painting a rather unflattering picture of the factory)" where was that unflattering picture painted and did it come from Dave?  If it did, I for one missed it.  If there is a dispute between Dave and another organisation then why should we have any right to "make a judgement about what happened".  This is for the two parties to sort out between themselves, or take to the courts if necessary.

 

Roddy

The crowd funders have been honestly informed that there has been a falling out, and that an alternative plan has been made, you cannot fault the communication even if it lacks detail.

 

Regardless who is right or wrong, every action brings a reaction - indeed it is the Chinese taught us this... its ying and yang.

 

As an anecdote, In my industry, I work global, I have all the names and numbers of my past and current customers, partners, competitors, every one knows everyone, indeed I had a private discussion regarding my potential future outside my current employer with someone this monday, only to have a customer in San Francisco call me to ask about that conversation on tuesday... even my private calendar isnt private after 20 years.

 

The assumption is that despite a reassuring statement on this side of the planet, that everything is calm and resolved on the other side. We dont know whats going on, or being said and acted upon, 5500 miles away in a close knit, long experienced community of model railway manufacturers all sharing the same town, suppliers, customers possibly even sharing the same delivery truck drivers, restaurants, supermarkets, neighbours, friends etc..

 

In near 40 years of being a railway modeller, with some passive links to the industry, I cannot recall an occasion where allegedly, a senior member of a Chinese manufacturer has tried to reach out to the UK high street consumer. That stands out as a milestone.

 

Without a follow up statement, it is left to Time, which will tell us why and what is transpiring.

[James90012]

To add some balance to this, I have received every update via Email from Dave directly. I can't explain why but I suspect it's the minority that have not received the emails but as is everything online without any balance it might appear that no-one received the info.

[Neil]

.... "Over ambitious, not focused, too many promises, too many bold statements and too little delivered" ....

 

.

 

I've wondered about this too so out of curiosity I've taken a look at all the different models mentioned in this DJ models section of RMweb. I've counted models for different gauges as separate models but livery versions have not been counted. If I've counted correctly there have been expressions of interest or proposals of intent for 29 separate models with 4 of these projects resulting in models coming to the marketplace. One of the four is the Kernow 02 and I'll let you judge the relevance of that. Also mentioned was a proposal for crowdfunded N scale cars which as far as I'm aware nothing has come of. 

[Roy Langridge]

I've wondered about this too so out of curiosity I've taken a look at all the different models mentioned in this DJ models section of RMweb. I've counted models for different gauges as separate models but livery versions have not been counted. If I've counted correctly there have been expressions of interest or proposals of intent for 29 separate models with 4 of these projects resulting in models coming to the marketplace. One of the four is the Kernow 02 and I'll let you judge the relevance of that. Also mentioned was a proposal for crowdfunded N scale cars which as far as I'm aware nothing has come of.

It should be noted though, that for some of those even at the smaller runs that have been discussed, Dave has said their was insufficient demand. I don’t see a problem with testing the water and deciding that something is not viable and I believe that should not count against him. Getting more into production is needed, yes.

 

Roy

Edited December 15, 2018 by Roy Langridge