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NEW OO gauge Crowdfunded Class 92 initiative


DJM Dave
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It is not helped by DJ Models very poor info update. I can understand not posting on here and other forums .

 

However there is virtually nothing on his webpage about anything happening at all ??  His yearly report on reading, says actually very little about what is actually happening about any model. I wouldn't commit to anything he says is being produced, a sad state of affairs at the moment for him and people who have taken the risk and put money up front.

 

DJ Models must be aware of this announcement either prior to today or today. He needs to be saying something to reassure his customers as to what is happening with his version.

 

On another DJ related matter .I wonder ,whatever happened to the spare .parts he said he was going to sell ? he said he had some many months ago.

Edited by micklner
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As much as I want the DJ Models Class 92 to succeed the announcement today does make me very nervous about this project going any further.

 

My gut feeling for this (and the Revolution Class 320/321) has been for some time the development seems to be taking a VERY long time from an initial deposit having being paid to something tangable being shown - Even the APT seems to be more advanced development wise than this is by the looks of it and it does concern me big time this projects future could potentially be in doubt further down the line. Whilst the newsletters are showing signs of progress behind the scenes I can perhaps only hope progress is made swiftly on this and some re-assuarnces that this project can still be viable going forward are forthcoming as I personally don't wish to lose out on this in both N and OO.

 

If this had been released a year ago todays announcement would be a it 'meh' as a highly detailed class 92 would be in the market but its now a tough choice of stick (and hope) or swap knowing its likely to progress . . .

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55 minutes ago, Legend said:

Specifically the crowdfunding is about that it delivers that defined number of models to the people that paid up and covers its costs . It is not about sales of subsequent runs in the future.  So walking away will damage the project.

 

The problem is that we have seen before people saying they will commit to a model but the numbers subsequently turn out not to be there.  The initial "ooh I'll have 10 of these " response is replaced by a dose of financial reality.

 

My suspicion is that people will walk away . But then what happens to the remainder . Work has been done and paid for . Will they lose out if this doesn't go ahead or will monies be refunded ?  I sense this is the defining moment for Crowdfunding in model railways.  Depending on the outcome it could kill Crowdfunding stone dead.

 

 


The other thing we might find out is if the required number of people actually signed up in the first place making this project viable. Its easy to say that the required target has been met and run with the project in the hope that more will sign up to pay the remainder of the costs, but if like what has happened and another model comes along and takes a share of that hoped for remainder costs the project ends up S**T creek without a paddle!

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As I understand it, companies have to pay to have a sub forum for themselves on RMWeb, I simply do not understand why a company would pay to publicise their products, and then be totally silent on their own sub forum. If one has chosen to stop posting, then surely it is must be counter productive to subsidise speculation and rumours.

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22 minutes ago, Vistisen said:

As I understand it, companies have to pay to have a sub forum for themselves on RMWeb,

 

That is not correct but I can understand how that impression may have been given by DJM in a comment made. What I can say is that he was asked to contribute to site running costs via banner advertising for the extended use made of RMweb in marketing.

 

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I had already decided not to fund anymore payments before Christmas to this project.

I literally cannot see this going through now after today’s announcement. 

Well done Accurrascale. If you faff and snooze on a project, you lose.

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The problem with this project is been the glacial rate of progress. Crowd funded projects obviously take longer as enough time has to be given for people to sign up. However once that point is reached it needs to progress as quickly as possible. In this project nothing much has been happening. How long ago was it scanned? It seems to have been spun out for ages.

 

Lots of excuses or bad luck depending on how you look at it. Even without the Accurascale announcement at the speed this is going it will be 2021 before release, if ever.

 

Crowd funded projects do have risks. A competing project is the biggest of those risks. In order to reduce those risks they need to be executed in an efficient and timely manner. This project was not and that is why we have got to this point. I would be very surprised if the Accurascale one does not beat this one to completion despite the DJM one having a couple of years of a head start.

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31 minutes ago, bill_schmidt1 said:


The other thing we might find out is if the required number of people actually signed up in the first place making this project viable. Its easy to say that the required target has been met and run with the project in the hope that more will sign up to pay the remainder of the costs, but if like what has happened and another model comes along and takes a share of that hoped for remainder costs the project ends up S**T creek without a paddle!

 

Well I would hope he had decided to have the number of people on board before he started or he had sufficiant cash reserves just in case.  Otherwise the stress he will put himself under will be immense. Even the thickest skin eventually cracks. 

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 Has this project got beyond CAD stage ?

i thought the most we've seen was a 3D print of a CAD ?

 

Did the latest newsletter suggest tooling hadnt started, if true it offers a convienient end point in which case theres not much lost if it cancels ?

 

I was in the class 71 project, the model was nice, but the Hornby one was equal, on the shelves first, shorter in development duration,  cheaper, runs faster and both ultimately ended up bargain binned. I ultimately own more Hornby ones than DJ ones.

 

Ultimately in my opinion its upto the crowdfunders to decide, rather than DJM afterall its their money. 

 

 

 

 

Edited by adb968008
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Okay, let us for one moment assume that both the DJM and Accurascale models both go ahead and another consideration that no one seems to be taking into question is simply, "Who will produce the better model?"  

 

Okay, we all know that no model is perfect and while I don't doubt the competence of Accurascale in any way whatsoever, we are yet to see a finished production model locomotive from Accurascale?   Personally I was very impressed with the DJM Class 71, so I have no doubt that should the DJM 92 actually reach production that with the hi-spec already discussed it will highly likely be a very fine model too.  But will the Accurascale 92 be better, more or less accurate?  All unanswerable questions at the moment of course, but nonetheless throws even more doubt and decision into the mix...

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1 hour ago, Andy Y said:

 

That is not correct but I can understand how that impression may have been given by DJM in a comment made. What I can say is that he was asked to contribute to site running costs via banner advertising for the extended use made of RMweb in marketing.

 

Thanks for the correction. But the main  thrust of my comment remains/ Why have a sub forum for your products if you do  not intend to communicate through it_

 

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8 minutes ago, Vistisen said:

Thanks for the correction. But the main  thrust of my comment remains/ Why have a sub forum for your products if you do  not intend to communicate through it_

 

 

He decided not to do so, not every manufacturer does anyway.

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9 minutes ago, Vistisen said:

Thanks for the correction. But the main  thrust of my comment remains/ Why have a sub forum for your products if you do  not intend to communicate through it_

 

Most of the sub-forums for the larger manufacturers have no participation from the manufacturer - Dapol, Bachmann, Farish, Hornby, Oxford Rail. etc.

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Well my money now going to accurascale had already decided not to progress with my DJ ones. 2 years in development hardly any progress till now. I don't expect he will give me back my deposit to send to accurascale so goodbye 60 quid! Refuse to throw good money after bad.

mark.

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54 minutes ago, Vistisen said:

Thanks for the correction. But the main  thrust of my comment remains/ Why have a sub forum for your products if you do  not intend to communicate through it_

 

 

44 minutes ago, Andy Y said:

 

He decided not to do so, not every manufacturer does anyway.

 

42 minutes ago, Mike Harvey said:

Most of the sub-forums for the larger manufacturers have no participation from the manufacturer - Dapol, Bachmann, Farish, Hornby, Oxford Rail. etc.

Unlike Hornby, Dapol, Bachmann etc a small manufacturer dependant on crowd funding for some models should communicate with the funders.  

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1 hour ago, adb968008 said:

 Has this project got beyond CAD stage ?

i thought the most we've seen was a 3D print of a CAD ?

 

Did the latest newsletter suggest tooling hadnt started, if true it offers a convienient end point in which case theres not much lost if it cancels ?

 

I was in the class 71 project, the model was nice, but the Hornby one was equal, on the shelves first, shorter in development duration,  cheaper, runs faster and both ultimately ended up bargain binned. I ultimately own more Hornby ones than DJ ones.

 

Ultimately in my opinion its upto the crowdfunders to decide, rather than DJM afterall its their money. 

 

 

 

 

 

I think the answer will depend on how many people pay the 2nd instalment. If enough, the project can move to the next steps. Not enough, it will probably stay in stasis until either enough pay or the wait drags on for ages (with the consequence of people being fed up).

The trouble is, he has now paid for two lots of CADs. This might be a small 5 figure sum, but that is enough to make cancelling and crediting deposits from project funds alone impossible so would have to come out of his reserves.

 

But he is then left with only the APT and King to float on. Unless those secret projects for other parties come to the fore (maybe GT3 is one of these). In this game, you can no longer put stakes in the ground if you cannot defend them. So for his sake and customer confidence sake, he must keep these projects progressing else he could find himself facing an all new Hornby APT or something early next year if other manufacturers still find him too slow.

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That seems to have been Dave's problem he is too slow, you might have expected a one man band may have been able to be more agile in the manufacturing process and be able to be quick to find production slots etc with not necessarily being tied to a factory like Bachmann for instance but sadly that has not been the case.

mark

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Like others have commented I decided before Christmas that any further monies requested by DJM will be declined due to lack of progress, little in the way on communication and updates, many broken intentions and milestones, the factory change, supplier disagreements, the web site, the Companies House embarrassment and my email bounced back - strange how the deposit invoice email didn't, nor does any other business, individual or group trying to email me!

 

I totally agree in that I consider any further payments as throwing good money after bad.

 

I was in for more than 1 - even so after 2 years although I don't like losing money I have written it off as it was paid so long ago. and what have I paid £30/model this is less than 30% of the full price so do I really want to throw another £75-85 at this with no faith left in either the project or manufacturer.

 

Prior to the New Year and after several unanswered emails, (no news letter received - apparently I bounced back), I finally had an email conversation with DJM in early January- and no you cannot have any deposit money back as it's all been spent on the 'work' so far - CADS, 3d Prints marketing, field trips to measure up, DCC chip testing, even the VAT was mentioned on the deposits.

 

So any of us who do decide like me not to go any further with this pantomime it's adios to any deposits paid.

 

Some may say I am wasting my investment I look at this way - I could invest a further 70% and still have a very prolonged wait, or not get a model at all, or I can bow out - yes losing my deposit.

 

Or I can wait until any model of a class 92 arrives, if it's DJM then it's the retailer option - safe and no risk, if it's Accurrascale then I will see how they progress and maybe commit if I see positive progress down the line or even wait until the model is in manufacturing if the order process is still open.

 

If they both come on stream and the market is awash then I can see plenty of retailer sales happening with the DJM version for sure, and probably a fair amount of eBay sales as well.

 

We all have to make our choice - some will see it out and some like me will not, how that pans out for DJM with project cashflow I do not know but in my professional experience given the woes we all know about with this project any cash contingency he may have built in has likely also been eaten up and I would be surprised if he doesn't either ask for a price increase or cheapen the product. 

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I too can't imagine paying a second installment now there is the opportunity of a second product, my £30 was spent way back in 2016 and whilst it's been on my mind since ordering I feel uncomfortable investing anymore when there is a deposit- (and therefore risk) free option available. I feel for Dave but I think I'm at the end of the road.

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2 hours ago, Persephone said:

Another episode in the comedy of errors that is DJM. It's quite clear from the replies here that people are bailing out of the crowdfunding, so even if he commissioned the project on break even, he is now well into loss. A recipe for insolvency. 

 

To be fair, comments such as this aren't helpful to anyone.  Should we not wait until we have solid facts 'from the horse's mouth', so to speak, before condemning a man and his business to the grave?   At present nothing has been announced by DJM to in any way suggest that the project might be cancelled, so until that moment becomes reality (if indeed it does) then any comment such as the above can only succeed in being harmful.

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