NEW OO gauge Crowdfunded Class 92 initiative

[Ely_South]

On ‎21‎/‎02‎/‎2019 at 15:09, Roy L S said:

What troubles me with what is being mooted by some in such a scenario is that if those who might cancel and forego their initial payment to go elsewhere, reaches such a significant number then a project is  brought down for everyone, even those who had no intention of "bailing". There is as I see it a need to recognise this, that a certain level of patience and integrity is required and that committing at the start means seeing it through.

 

Roy 

 

I don't disagree with your sentiment on patience. However, if everyone investing on day one was expected to last the course, then payment would have been 100% upfront. The reality is that payment was split over the life of the project to reduce risk to those investors & the lack of progress/introduction of a (very high grade) competitor have changed that risk profile significantly.

 

Personally, I wonder if the real reason for the lack of progress is that the project still has not reached the minimum number of investors required to take it into tooling. If true, all we can do to get the thing going is encourage others to join us - And that just became a lot harder to do....

 

 

[The Stationmaster]

7 minutes ago, Ely_South said:

 

I don't disagree with your sentiment on patience. However, if everyone investing on day one was expected to last the course, then payment would have been 100% upfront. The reality is that payment was split over the life of the project to reduce risk to those investors & the lack of progress/introduction of a (very high grade) competitor have changed that risk profile significantly.

 

Personally, I wonder if the real reason for the lack of progress is that the project still has not reached the minimum number of investors required to take it into tooling. If true, all we can do to get the thing going is encourage others to join us - And that just became a lot harder to do....

 

 

I see that it is advertised the Spring issue of BRM - for both 00 and N.

[woodenhead]

12 minutes ago, 159220 said:

 

 Some supporters have been promised, if the project fails they shall be refunded, other told no refunds when representatives from DJM models have just returned from the Galapagos Islands. It is all just a bit, deeply worrying, reading these 58 pages (and others on DJM models). 

 

 

Galapagos Islands?

[njee20]

October 2016, page 17 of this thread: Dave goes to the Galapagos.

 

Dave is obviously totally entitled to holiday wherever he likes, and it's a bit of a personal dig to bring that up. That said... he's always made a big thing about remortgaging house, tiny margins, "not making any money on this model", being cash strapped etc etc etc, and I reckon the Galapagos is probably the most expensive holiday destination on the planet, having looked at a honeymoon there!

[adb968008]

 

I think some posts are crossing an unfair line of personal criticsm here

 

 

Edited February 25, 2019 by adb968008

[JSpencer]

What Dave does in his private life is really none of our business. I will be off to Delhi/India soon for 9 days to train a new company team based there. While I'm there, there will be one day when I'll visit the Taj Mahal (a 5 hour drive south of Delhi) all paid by my work.

 

The only way this project will get to its destination is if Crowdfunders stick to it - unless there is a second means of financing it. If not, and too many people drop out, it will definately fail.

Of course, what is an acceptable time scale for these things and whether or not the project will reach the end, is open to debate but is largly between the funders and DJM.

At least there are some hidden newsletters possibly hinting at recent progress for those funders involved.

 

[BR(S)]

21 minutes ago, adb968008 said:

 

I think some posts are crossing an unfair line of personal criticsm here

 

 

 

Well, that post about Dave's 2016 holiday has finally taken us over the line into "truly nuts" territory!

 

Erm, hard-earned savings maybe (remember when they were fashionable?). There are a host of other possibles (treat from his other half?).

 

I've taken this line since the constant Dave-slapping began: certain companies post pictures of 3D prints, CADs etc and people fawn all over them; Dave does it and it's conspiracy theories or he's done a runner.

 

If certain people could go away, have a few glasses of their favourite tipple and then type what's truly on their mind, I'm fascinated to know. Did you catch him at the end of a two-day show once and he was a little short with you or something?

 

CADs of 92 and APT, 3D prints of APT and 92, clear information about what's been going on (I know more about Dave's life than my own!). The crowdfunders models are happening and progressing. Or am I getting different newsletters to certain others?

[njee20]

38 minutes ago, adb968008 said:

 

I think some posts are crossing an unfair line of personal criticsm here

 

 

Which was rather my point, although I can understand why some may question it. Personally for me it's another example of Dave being a bit too open - people will draw whatever conclusion they want, if he'd said he was going camping in Grimsby then people would be saying "ooh, the business is obviously struggling." He achieved little by telling us when he's visiting the Galapagos, the Caribbean, the Far East, whatever, and clearly for someone who is a divisive character it's used against him, which is a bit of a shame, we'd all like manufacturers to be more visible on here.

[adb968008]

8 minutes ago, njee20 said:

Which was rather my point, although I can understand why some may question it. Personally for me it's another example of Dave being a bit too open - people will draw whatever conclusion they want, if he'd said he was going camping in Grimsby then people would be saying "ooh, the business is obviously struggling." He achieved little by telling us when he's visiting the Galapagos, the Caribbean, the Far East, whatever, and clearly for someone who is a divisive character it's used against him, which is a bit of a shame, we'd all like manufacturers to be more visible on here.

Fortunately a few posts seemed to have rolled back and removed them.

 

disagreeing with how models are made is one thing but how he spends personal time is another.

We all have personal stuff, Some of my university exploits exist on hard drives waiting some day to fly screaming from the closet and chase me, and one hopes decency means they will only appear in a humourous way.

 

But Divisive character or not, I dont think anyone here would want to start seeing their personal snaps online

 

Maybe i’m old fashioned but i just think we should respect that, regardless what you think of how he does business.

Edited February 25, 2019 by adb968008

[njee20]

I agree, I'm merely stating facts - he is a divisive character, and because of that sharing superfluous information like where he holidays is unlikely to garner much praise from a minority.

 

It's a shame, but we are where we are.

[woodenhead]

2 minutes ago, adb968008 said:

Fortunately a few posts seemed to have rolled back and removed them.

 

disagreeing with how models are made is one thing but how he spends personal time is another.

We all have personal stuff, Some of my university exploits exist on hard drives waiting some day to fly screaming from the closet and chase me, and one hopes decency means they will only appear in a humourous way.

 

But Divisive character or not, I dont think anyone here would want to start seeing their personal snaps online.

 

Maybe i’m old fashioned but i just think we should respect that, regardless what you think of how he does business.

Mods removed the offending post and I removed my response to said post - otherwise it looked like I was referring to Njee20's post when i wasn't.

 

There is no place for innuendo in this thread.

[Roadrails]

I would only buy a model which exists. I know that might mean less models but where has say the Baby Deltic gone in 7mm scale, I cant recall if orders/money were taken or not now but it has vanished from the website. His models are brilliant but remember its a 6 figure sum to make a model- some business assistance paid for may help.

[adb968008]

24 minutes ago, njee20 said:

I agree, I'm merely stating facts - he is a divisive character, and because of that sharing superfluous information like where he holidays is unlikely to garner much praise from a minority.

 

It's a shame, but we are where we are.

He wasnt sharing superfluous information, hes not been on here for ages.

it was brought here.

 

i have my online accounts, facebook etc, I wouldnt be happy if my customers suddenly started putting my pictures on trade websites saying hey look at this guy on his vacation ...its got nothing to do with what i do professionally today.

 

Fortunately theyve gone i think its time to move on.

 

 

Edited February 25, 2019 by adb968008

[njee20]

Edit: talking at crossed-purposes due to missing unnecessarily personal posts, no place for that!

Edited February 25, 2019 by njee20

[dogbox321]

TBH this is getting quite laborious now.  Just like 2 sides of a coin, some will take a positive approach and some a negative (half full, half empty glass brigade)

 

There are two schools of thought.....

 

1 - the negative, who have not invested and would probably like it to fail to say "I told you so!", 

 

2- those who have backed the project and who want to see it come to fruition.

 

Last time I signed on, this were RMweb, not a 65p womans magazine with pictures via telephoto lense of people on holiday.  Perhaps we should all concentrate on our modelling a little more.....and let Dave get on with his models, wherever that leads.  Hopefully with another 92 on the horizon, it will focus him and the factory on progress.

 

Regards,

 

C.

.

[njee20]

I think that's a bit black and white, I think there's a significant contingent who have their concerns but most certainly aren't hoping for failure. I count myself in that category!

[meatloaf]

20 hours ago, Roadrails said:

I would only buy a model which exists. I know that might mean less models but where has say the Baby Deltic gone in 7mm scale, I cant recall if orders/money were taken or not now but it has vanished from the website. His models are brilliant but remember its a 6 figure sum to make a model- some business assistance paid for may help.

 

Its still listed on hattons for pre order. Its also listed in n gauge for preorder along with the class 17 which I thought was on hold.

[njee20]

No idea about the 17, but the N gauge 92 is meant to still be alive and well, and thus I'd expect pre-orders to be accepted. There's not even the useless off-topic nitpicking on the N gauge thread though!

[dogbox321]

4 hours ago, njee20 said:

I think that's a bit black and white, I think there's a significant contingent who have their concerns but most certainly aren't hoping for failure. I count myself in that category!

 

Well out of 58 pages, could imagine perhaps 45 are "grey area".  Instead of going round and round, with "speculations",  "maybe",  "perhaps" etc., it makes it simple - two choices.  Nothings perfect, but ultimately hopefully Dave has learnt, and as time passes, hopefully things will progress. 

  

[81C]

4 hours ago, dogbox321 said:

TBH this is getting quite laborious now.  Just like 2 sides of a coin, some will take a positive approach and some a negative (half full, half empty glass brigade)

 

There are two schools of thought.....

 

1 - the negative, who have not invested and would probably like it to fail to say "I told you so!", 

 

2- those who have backed the project and who want to see it come to fruition.

 

Last time I signed on, this were RMweb, not a 65p womans magazine with pictures via telephoto lense of people on holiday.  Perhaps we should all concentrate on our modelling a little more.....and let Dave get on with his models, wherever that leads.  Hopefully with another 92 on the horizon, it will focus him and the factory on progress.    

 

Regards,

 

C.

.

 

[Great Western]

On 25/02/2019 at 15:47, njee20 said:

Which was rather my point, although I can understand why some may question it. Personally for me it's another example of Dave being a bit too open - people will draw whatever conclusion they want, if he'd said he was going camping in Grimsby then people would be saying "ooh, the business is obviously struggling." He achieved little by telling us when he's visiting the Galapagos, the Caribbean, the Far East, whatever, and clearly for someone who is a divisive character it's used against him, which is a bit of a shame, we'd all like manufacturers to be more visible on here.

 

 

Why is DJ held in such low or high esteem though ? 

 

I think the the worst thing he’s done is totally withdraw from this forum, ultimately it’ll lead to a much poorer outlook for his business long term, if indeed there is a long term.

 

He arrived with his matey matey approach, not supplier to customer relationship which we’re used to, over shared and now he’s facing this as a result mistrust, and suspicion.

[njee20]

Yep, can’t argue with much of that frankly!

[black and decker boy]

11 hours ago, Great Western said:

 

 

Why is DJ held in such low or high esteem though ? 

 

1) Too many announcements of new models

2) Too few models delivered

3) poor mechanism and running qualities of the J94

4) Failure of previous crowdfunding projects

5) Cock ups / delays / excuses / empty promises

 

if the J94 mechanism had been better (I have 3 from the 1st batch), I’d have jumped in with the 92 crowdfunding. As it is, I took the view to wait and see it on the shelves. If it is ever delivered and it’s as good as his marketing says it is, then I’ll still buy some.

 

whilst I’d love an APT, I do not perceive the risk of stumping up cash up front to be worthwhile (for me) and a full set would be my entire annual budget but I’d like to see the model made.

 

all of the above can be overcome with successful delivery of models that set new standards as per his promises.

Edited February 27, 2019 by black and decker boy

[The Stationmaster]

2 hours ago, black and decker boy said:

 

1) Too many announcements of new models

2) Too few models delivered

3) poor mechanism and running qualities of the J94

4) Failure of previous crowdfunding projects

5) Cock ups / delays / excuses / empty promises

 

 

That basically is it I think.  His record on crowdfunded loco projects is poor with, I think, so far only the Class 71 coming to fruition while the N gauge Class 17 and 00 Class 74 failed for whatever reasons and the Class 92 has suffered significant delays and a change of factory.   Of his other loco projects - apart from several for commissioning retailers - I can't recall any of his various proposed loco models appearing in the market place except for the J94.  And, for example, don't forget that, among other things, that we were promised that a full range of spares would be available for his models. 

 

 I suspect that 'over promising' has not helped his cause - although ambition and new approaches are obviously worthy of praise.  But to over promise and then be perceived to under-deliver does not do anybody's business image and street cred much good.   A good way to earn credibility and build customer satisfaction in any business or task is to under-promise and over-deliver, do the opposite and you will harm your business's reputation and potential customers' perceptions of it.    A good example of the latter is to look too at what is being said by many about Bachmann and their delivery of new models - eventually - of new models into the marketplace,  or what happened to Hornby's image with their 'design clever' project.

[Legend]

Agree with above . And in fairness to Dave he is operating in a market where enthusiasm can sometimes get the better of us . How many times have you seen "Wow I'll have 6 of them in all different liveries" . The reality is quite often different when it comes to parting with cash.  Crowdfunders do have an obligation and I don't think that's always been clear . If you look at the history post some way back you'll see that there are contradictory statements on refunds which  doesn't help . I think maybe there has been insufficient contingency built into previous plans . This is where enthusiasm clashes with economic reality.