letterspider Posted May 12, 2019 Share Posted May 12, 2019 (edited) 4 hours ago, Great Western said: God is this where the money has gone, a blame everyone apart from DJM spokesman? Blame literally everyone or anything except his own inability to deliver many years on from the launch! You really couldn’t make this comment up ! How many models from other manufacturers have languished on the drawing board since being announced? Yes I am a crowdfunder for this project so of course I want to see it reach fruition and why wouldn't I want to defend my investment. I have a Fistful of Dollars, already I have ordered 7 of these Magnificent models and I'm definitely in it for a Few Dollars More. You have your opinions on this but in the end if you disagree with it, you just don't need to put any money into the project, which begs the question - if you aren't a crowdfunder, why are your reading and writing on this thread. Edited May 12, 2019 by letterspider Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
MGR Hooper! Posted May 12, 2019 Share Posted May 12, 2019 5 hours ago, letterspider said: Crowdfunders come to attention and rally around! there was a time when a gentleman was a man of his word...no I don't mean Dave but us crowdfunders who pledged allegiance to his banner and marched behind him waving our mighty £30 deposits - willing to fight for the freedom to choose the model we wanted. Yes that 92 from Accurascale looks really nice but should we be so quick to run to it. They have revealed a CAD just a few weeks ahead of announcing they are going to tooling, so there was a lot of advance planning and work going on, who knows how soon after Dave announced his plan for a 92. They are almost apologetic about the 92 that they are making. I think they say the original plan was they wanted to make the Mark 5 but on agreement they have to make a Class 92 as well to go with it. So sorry for them ruining our project. Are they aware that they are going to hurt all the crowdfunders really bad? They don't want to talk about it. Luckily Accurascale are coming to our rescue us with a great looking 92 (no I really do think it looks to be a stunning model) after torpedoing our project - thanks guys. Now some of YOU crowdfunders are complaining about Dave and saying they are going to walk away from 2nd deposits because they are going to buy from Accurascale. Even if he came to market next week with a better, more affordable Class 92 with a free sound chip and which laid golden goose eggs would you come back? Should we be surprised if Dave walks away from this project? It is the crowdfunders who have walked away which killed this project - not Dave. Oh what fresh hell is this??? Dave's PR Department is just as looney as him.... 7 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
MGR Hooper! Posted May 12, 2019 Share Posted May 12, 2019 41 minutes ago, letterspider said: If you aren't a crowdfunder, why are your reading and writing on this thread. Apart from Dave's PR Department, are you trying for RMweb Admin too??? There's absolutely no rule on this forum that says you cannot post in a particular topic. And if there is, that'll be down to ill-mannered members who will be blocked from posting by Andy York or other members of the Admin Team. You have no right to ask someone why they're posting in this thread. 9 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
GWR-fan Posted May 12, 2019 Share Posted May 12, 2019 This closed shop mentality just reminds us how some months ago all information was sent to only those who were financially involved and were apparently instructed to keep the information inhouse. Those with a financial interest are not the only ones interested in DJM products. When it was first released I was interested in several J94 locomotives as I reasoned that they had to have been far superior to the Hornby version, but then reports of less than ideal running quality changed my mind. I have no interest in a class 92 but as a DJM release I am interested in the potential quality of the product as in the future I may wish some other product that he releases. That said, I would not financially contribute but would await a dealer release as I feel with crowdfunding possibly being an uncertain possibility that retailers will step up and support the scheme, offering other versions. A large retailer would have a more persuasive clout as regards getting stalled projects on track as it seems that individual crowdfunders are not sufficient impetus to get projects moving in a timely manner. I do hope that the events of the past do not further stall ongoing products as there are obviously many funders and non-funders who wish the project a speedy recovery from the malaise it seems to be suffering. 5 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Vistisen Posted May 12, 2019 RMweb Gold Share Posted May 12, 2019 3 hours ago, MGR Hooper! said: Oh what fresh hell is this??? Dave's PR Department is just as looney as him.... One of the problem of free speech is that people sometimes appoint themselves to roles defending others using arguments that are not 'official' Letterspider does not, as far as I know speak on behalf of DJM. DJM has enough on its plate without having to defend Looney PR... Oh wait... 1 7 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rob D2 Posted May 12, 2019 Share Posted May 12, 2019 4 hours ago, letterspider said: How many models from other manufacturers have languished on the drawing board since being announced? Yes I am a crowdfunder for this project so of course I want to see it reach fruition and why wouldn't I want to defend my investment. I have a Fistful of Dollars, already I have ordered 7 of these Magnificent models and I'm definitely in it for a Few Dollars More. You have your opinions on this but in the end if you disagree with it, you just don't need to put any money into the project, which begs the question - if you aren't a crowdfunder, why are your reading and writing on this thread. Because it’s hilarious watching you rearrange the deckchairs on the titanic . 3 10 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
MGR Hooper! Posted May 12, 2019 Share Posted May 12, 2019 22 minutes ago, Vistisen said: One of the problem of free speech is that people sometimes appoint themselves to roles defending others using arguments that are not 'official' Letterspider does not, as far as I know speak on behalf of DJM. DJM has enough on its plate without having to defend Looney PR... Oh wait... Letterspider should also understand the fact that people may actually be interested in a Class 92 or at one point in time had orders with DJM for the Class 92 but backed out because of the way DJ acts (this is my case). So they're also entitled to post here. As is anyone who has no interest in one. Because DJ has made a mess of things across his entire company and people can post in other topics especially nice the brand is being discussed and how DJ has made a right old mess. 1 5 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
MGR Hooper! Posted May 12, 2019 Share Posted May 12, 2019 4 hours ago, letterspider said: I have a Fistful of Dollars, already I have ordered 7 of these Magnificent models and I'm definitely in it for a Few Dollars More. I'd love to see some physical evidence to back up this claim of yours.... Oh wait! You're DJ v2.0 1 1 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
MGR Hooper! Posted May 12, 2019 Share Posted May 12, 2019 (edited) 9 hours ago, letterspider said: Crowdfunders come to attention and rally around! Such a typical DJ style of communicating....the first sentence puts me off!! Edited May 12, 2019 by MGR Hooper! 4 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
letterspider Posted May 12, 2019 Share Posted May 12, 2019 Ha ha ha ha ha! 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Ian Hargrave Posted May 12, 2019 RMweb Gold Share Posted May 12, 2019 9 hours ago, Great Western said: God is this where the money has gone, a blame everyone apart from DJM spokesman? Blame literally everyone or anything except his own inability to deliver many years on from the launch! You really couldn’t make this comment up ! This really has become the theatre of the absurd.....”reductio ad absurdum”.But hey if you look at this morning’s BBC News App some. so called “enthusiasts “ are already playing starring roles in it.Look at the coverage of the Scotsman incident last Sunday and you will see the identical image posted by our XC driver on this forum last week.The two bodies in question are now on a list to be interviewed by police......for their conduct of near lunacy .Anyone recognise them ? Bit like some recent posts on this thread.None so blind etc.....A good long think and a walk in the Spring sunshine will help and then perhaps the self discipline of waking up and smelling the coffee,followed by a period of self imposed exile.Now I must go wind the cuckoo clock... 3 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tricky-CRS Posted May 12, 2019 Share Posted May 12, 2019 1 hour ago, MGR Hooper! said: Such a typical DJ style of communicating....the first sentence puts me off!! I have thought for sometime that Letterspider is Dave Jones, I become more convinced with each post. The only issue is the grammar and obvious proof reading but perhaps that's intentional. I have no interest in a 92 but have in other products, so like to stay informed. Plus I am enjoying reading the latest excerpts of DJM sagas. 6 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
MGR Hooper! Posted May 12, 2019 Share Posted May 12, 2019 (edited) 1 hour ago, Tricky-CRS said: I have thought for sometime that Letterspider is Dave Jones, I become more convinced with each post. The only issue is the grammar and obvious proof reading but perhaps that's intentional. I have no interest in a 92 but have in other products, so like to stay informed. Plus I am enjoying reading the latest excerpts of DJM sagas. Now that you've mentioned it.... Either that or he's obsessed with these DJM products that are vapourware to most of us. Apparently Letterspider knows a lot about the fantastic quality of DJM products especially the forthcoming Class 92 (which wasn't even 3D printed in the right scale). Edited May 12, 2019 by MGR Hooper! 1 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
DavidH Posted May 12, 2019 Share Posted May 12, 2019 59 minutes ago, Tricky-CRS said: I have thought for sometime that Letterspider is Dave Jones, I become more convinced with each post. The only issue is the grammar and obvious proof reading but perhaps that's intentional. It's always possible to be wrong, but I don't think so - it would turn on its head the idea that all your professional official announcements should be very carefully checked for errors, in a way that your personal communications, e.g. on a forum, don't have to be. The two accounts have existed side by side far too long for it to be a clever ruse. There is another account, however ... 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium 5944 Posted May 12, 2019 RMweb Premium Share Posted May 12, 2019 1 hour ago, Tricky-CRS said: I have thought for sometime that Letterspider is Dave Jones, I become more convinced with each post. The only issue is the grammar and obvious proof reading but perhaps that's intentional. I'm not so sure. Dave is still active on another forum I frequent, not railway related, and his writing style on there is identical to how it used to be on here. He was also active on that forum this morning. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
DavidH Posted May 12, 2019 Share Posted May 12, 2019 Just now, 5944 said: I'm not so sure. Dave is still active on another forum I frequent, not railway related, and his writing style on there is identical to how it used to be on here. He was also active on that forum this morning. Quite - it's more difficult to change your communication style than people think. Choice of words is key, and there are of course the text design cues 1 1 4 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
GWR-fan Posted May 12, 2019 Share Posted May 12, 2019 I believe other than being an enthusiastic supporter of DJM, "Letterspider" is not related. Refer this excerpt from the APT thread mid-2018. It is a response from Dave as regards an enquiry from Letterspider about the APT project. It would seem given that he was considering up to ten sets that he had some concerns. Perhaps he was serious about seven class 92 purchases? Of note is the signature at the end of the quote apparently intended for all responses from Dave for all OO and N projects that were crowdfunded. There is a lot of interesting reading from that thread which should have raised more questions back then. Quote: " On 04/05/2018 at 19:44, letterspider said: Hi Dave perhaps you didn't understand - I want to keep my order perhaps I would even increase it to 10 sets but ironically it is the lack of fine detail which is the problem here. Are we going to be privy to any of the relevant details of this contract - how are you going to mitigate the risk this time - it could be a case of new supplier and same old problem yes? Can you guarantee that you have an agreement in place with your contractors down the line that would assure us that we receive the service that we are paying for? Hi mate, Sorry, i'm in need of more coffee as i missed that. However in mitigation, clarity on the situation is here below in this mail which i have tried to add to every main posting i have made on the OO and N gauge projects, each invoice that goes out now, my website and DToS web site starting from yesterday. I hope it helps clarify things. Cheers Dave Please note this is a DJM crowdfunding project and DJM will be invoicing, designing, and finally supplying the finished model and is therefore totally responsible for your investment. Also: Please Note: Any 'pure' crowdfunding venture is an investment with no guarantee of return, and your invested capital (deposit payments) are at risk. Please consider carefully whether you wish to partake in this venture before ordering" End quote. 1 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
GWR-fan Posted May 12, 2019 Share Posted May 12, 2019 Another interesting posting response from the beginning of the thread. It seems that even early on there was a mix of enthusiasm and concern and Dave did make it quite clear of what you were purchasing (investing in). Dave certainly did put a lot of effort initially in the project. From what I am reading it seems that in reality you were not purchasing a finished model until it was actually delivered after the final stage payment had been made. What you were purchasing at each payment was a "stage" of the process in delivering the model. Thus an initial deposit payment was not for the model but a payment towards the CAD process. Thus if the CAD was completed then DJM had fulfilled the terms of the first stage and so no chargeback could be made on your credit card as in reality you had made a payment and DJM had delivered on the "stage" paid for. Quote: "Posted August 14, 2016 On 14/08/2016 at 07:48, James Makin said: Hi Dave, Forgive me if it's a silly question - is the money invested at stages 1 and 2 protected and repayable should the worst happen and the model doesn't make it to stage 3 please? I saw your note about the credit card insurance but wondered aside from individuals chasing Visa/MC/Amex etc if there was a crowdfunding safeguard that automatically pays out if the project gets cancelled further down the line? Many thanks! James Hi James, Whether you are kick starting or crowdfunding, once the money is spent, it's spent! The company or individual can, however, try to mitigate against subsequent customer loss, but I would imagine it would be difficult as the funds are used for paying various stages of development of said project. What I'm doing is only taking credit card payments as that protects you, plus only asking for smaller 'chunks' of monies to fund these projects in 3 stages. Hope this helps? Cheers Dave" (End quote) 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ravenser Posted May 12, 2019 Share Posted May 12, 2019 2 hours ago, DavidH said: Quite - it's more difficult to change your communication style than people think. Choice of words is key, and there are of course the text design cues A whole department of literary scholarship depends on being able to attribute texts to an author based on detailed stylistic comparisons , word use etc, often including complex computer driven statistical analysis of word usage. Take a look at the authorship debates over King Henry VIII, and Two Noble Kinsmen if you want proof (both accepted as Shakespeare collaborations) - the distinction between the two authors in Pericles is so obvious anyone can spot it, and the interpolated bits in Macbeth are scarcely less obvious. (Similarly Francis Bacon can't possibly have written Shakespeare's plays because Shakespeare's prose and Bacons prose are put together in very different ways) So - different styles = different authors is a very safe bet 1 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ravenser Posted May 12, 2019 Share Posted May 12, 2019 5 hours ago, MGR Hooper! said: Letterspider should also understand the fact that people may actually be interested in a Class 92 or at one point in time had orders with DJM for the Class 92 but backed out because of the way DJ acts (this is my case). So they're also entitled to post here. As is anyone who has no interest in one. Because DJ has made a mess of things across his entire company and people can post in other topics especially nice the brand is being discussed and how DJ has made a right old mess. In so far as the Statement and Clarification are directed against DJM's competitors or former collaborators and their projects , those interested in a OO 92 from someone else, or who may be customers/intending customers of someone DJM is kicking back against and value the target's continued existence have some entitlement to comment on the situation. I don't want anybody to get hurt. But I can't quite see any scenario now where this ends without someone getting hurt, in some way Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Markwj Posted May 12, 2019 RMweb Gold Share Posted May 12, 2019 You know if Dave was able to produce the 92 or any other model I am interested in and I could go down to the model shop handle it and test run it I would be happy to buy it. I may not sound like it but I have nothing against Dave personally but I no longer feel comfortable blindly giving money with nothing to show for it. We are now in a bit of a catch 22 he cannot progress without my (and others money) and I don't think I can confidently give him anymore. It is an impasse so what happens now? Time will tell? 1 3 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Vistisen Posted May 12, 2019 RMweb Gold Share Posted May 12, 2019 9 hours ago, DavidH said: Quite - it's more difficult to change your communication style than people think. Choice of words is key, and there are of course the text design cues Can you register IP on posting styles in forums? 7 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium njee20 Posted May 12, 2019 RMweb Premium Share Posted May 12, 2019 10 hours ago, 5944 said: I'm not so sure. Dave is still active on another forum I frequent, not railway related, and his writing style on there is identical to how it used to be on here. He was also active on that forum this morning. That’s interesting in itself. So his business is going to the dogs, he’s posted an out of office on his website, yet he’s still posting on forums? I’m not sure it’d my priority... 1 7 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
brittannia Posted May 12, 2019 Share Posted May 12, 2019 It has taken over 2 (getting on for3) years from the first crowdfunding payments to the point of a request for a second payment, I wonder how long would we have to wait for a 3ed and final payment and onto a model produced, On the history of progress we could be looking at 2024 before a model would be seen, I don't think I am willing to wait and see. Accurrascale are expecting delivery in 2020 of their 92 as far as I know ,they have not closed their ordering book or set any deadline for ordering as yet. 2 5 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSpencer Posted May 13, 2019 Share Posted May 13, 2019 9 hours ago, brittannia said: It has taken over 2 (getting on for3) years from the first crowdfunding payments to the point of a request for a second payment, I wonder how long would we have to wait for a 3ed and final payment and onto a model produced, On the history of progress we could be looking at 2024 before a model would be seen, I don't think I am willing to wait and see. Accurrascale are expecting delivery in 2020 of their 92 as far as I know ,they have not closed their ordering book or set any deadline for ordering as yet. I doubt you will ever see a deadline. Accurascale are not crowd funded nor are they "just" producing what has been ordered. 3 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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