NEW OO gauge Crowdfunded Class 92 initiative

[njee20]

No idea why you're quoting my post in yours, it's nothing whatsoever to do with any breach of legislation, which seems something you're clinging onto, it was (to quote the man) a 'berk' thing to do. Massively unprofessional. Still, it's done, no point dwelling on it.

[Nile_Griffith]

I am kind of finding this whole discussion a little depressing. I spent some time working for a manufacturer in what was/is a fairly niche global market (i.e. units sold were in the hundreds and not thousands worldwide). I don't recall at any time there been a level of company A phoning up company B and saying "Look old boy, be a decent chap and play with a straight bat or you're just Widdling in the stream for all of us". Yes all the competing manufacturers were fiercely protective of their developments and products, with each keeping a very watchful eye on what the other was doing and what the market place itself was prepared to buy. But it was down to each company to asses the viability of the product by that companies own requirements from it and if you just happened to make something technically and operationally the same as your competition, then you made damned sure that your potential customers knew that yours was the better gizmo to buy.

 

What I seem to be reading is that there is almost a willing acceptance from certain quarters that there should be a "First Dib's" policy. Model loco duplication is not unheard off Class 47, 37 are prime examples. Maybe Hornby should be sending the boys round to Oxford Rail's premises and suppressing Oxford's forthcoming Mk3"s.

 

If DJM wants to make N' and OO gauge Class 92 model loco's and they have the means to do it then fine. They should be allowed to do it un-hindered. If company A, B or whosoever wants to bring the same product to market then they are free to do so also. Its up to each to then motivate and justify that purchase to potential customers.

Edited October 3, 2016 by Nile_Griffith

[DavidH]

 He had been put in an impossible position

 

I totally agree with you, the bloke who started his own business from scratch, who routinely flies between the UK and China to manage a manufacturing contract, who landed exclusive model contracts with two of the UK's premier model shops, was put in an impossible position by a message from a fellow manufacturer about their own production plans, and was absolutely duty bound to reveal to all of us on a completely open forum the subject of that exchange of emails, including revealing said other manufacturer's own product plan. Wouldn't anyone have done the same, in similar circumstances? One would feel almost duty bound to.

 

But as you say, best we move on.

[grahame]

If company A, B or whosoever wants to bring the same product to market then they are free to do so also. Its up to each to then motivate and justify that purchase to potential customers.

 

The difference here, of course, is that the companies aren't developing and 'bringing to market' new products on their own initiative and volition and then trying to sell/justify them, but are being directed and funded by the market collectively to produce what it wants in the quantity it wants. Crowdfunding - a subtle difference.

 

G.

[Derekstuart]

I have re-read some of my personal comments (as opposed to legal opinions) on here and if fellow contributors do not mind I would like to note observe that on reflection some of my comments could be open to vague interpretations of a type diametrically opposed to that which I intended.

 

Whilst I do have great respect for Dave/DJM and will continue to be supportive of him, it may have appeared that I have tried to attack another company, which is not and was not my intention. Any reference to 'the other lot' is not meant in a derogatory term, but is a common enough way to avoid legal complications by mentioning anyone specifically, but I can see how this might have be mis-interpreted.

 

I clearly have little time for the large PLCs, but that does not make me unique, and believe that (within the confines of the law) that small companies have a hard enough time against those large companies that seemingly stake their intention to a model that they never build just to put others off, without small companies fighting each other.

 

I hope DJM and 'the other lot' find a way to work together, even if it is a handshake, friendly pint in the local and each doing their own thing.

[DJM Dave]

Hi everyone,

 

Just to let you all know, i will be sending paypal invoices for deposits out to all that have 'expressed an interest / ordered' the class 92, tomorrow afternoon / evening.

 

Sorry for the delay, but i'm just in from Fareham show and the M6 and A34 has just about destroyed me today. I mean who break down in a truck half in the slip road of the M6 motorway and doesnt get moved for 2 1/2 hours (on a free recovery zone too), and also while i'm ranting, who moves a load 2 lanes wide from Southampton to Newbury (where thankfully i passed it) during broad daylight and at 45mph??? lol 

cheers

Dave

[MGR Hooper!]

Hi everyone,

 

Just to let you all know, i will be sending paypal invoices for deposits out to all that have 'expressed an interest / ordered' the class 92, tomorrow afternoon / evening.

 

cheers

Dave

Will that be both OO and N gauge ones?

[DJM Dave]

Will that be both OO and N gauge ones?

OO mate, sorry i should have said!

cheers

Dave

[dibber25]

Hi everyone,

 

Just to let you all know, i will be sending paypal invoices for deposits out to all that have 'expressed an interest / ordered' the class 92, tomorrow afternoon / evening.

 

Sorry for the delay, but i'm just in from Fareham show and the M6 and A34 has just about destroyed me today. I mean who break down in a truck half in the slip road of the M6 motorway and doesnt get moved for 2 1/2 hours (on a free recovery zone too), and also while i'm ranting, who moves a load 2 lanes wide from Southampton to Newbury (where thankfully i passed it) during broad daylight and at 45mph??? lol 

cheers

Dave

I think that's not uncommon on the A34. I recall following a truck carrying a boat - with a Police escort that wouldn't let you pass - from Southampton up the A34 all the way to Fairline, which was at Oundle, Northants,  - where I lived at the time! (CJL)

[Nile_Griffith]

The difference here, of course, is that the companies aren't developing and 'bringing to market' new products on their own initiative and volition and then trying to sell/justify them, but are being directed and funded by the market collectively to produce what it wants in the quantity it wants. Crowdfunding - a subtle difference.

 

G.

 

 

 

My description of company A' and company B' was not levelled at either DJM or any other companies discussed within the OP. Rather a generalisation of companies concerned within manufacturing and at that as suggested a generalisation.

 

As for your assertion that the the companies discussed within the OP are not binging their products to market of their own volition, that to my own mind is a bit skewed. I didn't hear of any organised demonstrations outside of Dave's door demanding that the full force of DJM should be brought into producing N' and OO' gauge models of the Class 92 immediately. Neither have I come across any suggestion that someones being putting the frighteners on Rapido either. Both entities have made an informed decision on what maybe a viable product for their chosen market. The fact that crowd funding has been selected is most possibly based on the schemes ability to generate the required development and production capital without the pitfalls and hurdles of traditional banking and venture capital sources.

[grahame]

 

As for your assertion that the the companies discussed within the OP are not binging their products to market of their own volition, that to my own mind is a bit skewed. I didn't hear of any organised demonstrations outside of Dave's door demanding that the full force of DJM should be brought into producing N' and OO' gauge models of the Class 92 immediately.

 

That's probably a bit of a silly analogy. No-one has mentioned demonstrations or immediacy, and with crowdfunding the company will not make arrangements for manufacture/production unless the market pledges sufficient quantity and funding for it to progress. Having produced the product they don't have to market it and "then motivate and justify purchase to potential customers" as you posted. 

 

G.

[DJM Dave]

I think that's not uncommon on the A34. I recall following a truck carrying a boat - with a Police escort that wouldn't let you pass - from Southampton up the A34 all the way to Fairline, which was at Oundle, Northants,  - where I lived at the time! (CJL)

Now that's a distance. Makes mine look a tad silly, despite turning the air blue with an expletive.

 

However, the convoy caused (indirectly) a multi car accident of 3 / 4 vehicles rear ending each other in my lane 2 cars behind me as they didn't judge the traffic up ahead all slowing through the downs on the climb from Eastleigh. 1 big 4x4 went into the back of a little fiat 500.

Nothing mentioned on the radio so I presume they all got away with minimum injuries.

[Derekstuart]

Breaking news just in.

 

The Sun is going to blow up in 6 billion years. I wonder whether there's enough time to continue discussing whether 'crowd funding' is the correct term or not.

 

Anyone heard what the weather forecast is for Cornwall this weekend please?

[SRman]

Breaking news just in.

 

The Sun is going to blow up in 6 billion years. I wonder whether there's enough time to continue discussing whether 'crowd funding' is the correct term or not.

 

Anyone heard what the weather forecast is for Cornwall this weekend please?

 

I thought it was only 4 and a half billion years! 

[MGR Hooper!]

OO mate, sorry i should have said!

cheers

Dave

 

So I take it you're carrying on forward with both?

[DJM Dave]

So I take it you're carrying on forward with both?

Hi,

Yes. :-)

Cheers

Dave

[DJM Dave]

I thought it was only 4 and a half billion years! 

Now I was under the impression it was 4 and a half billion years, 6 months , 4 days and at the time of writing 6 1/2 hours?

[No Decorum]

I thought it was only 4 and a half billion years! 

This dinosaur believes it is only four and a half thousand million years.

[SRman]

This dinosaur believes it is only four and a half thousand million years.

 

Jokes aside, that is supposed to be correct>

 

Dave, you'd better get cracking before this happens!

[No Decorum]

I think that leaves just enough time for modellers of a certain persuasion to count the rivets on an APT-E!

[Nconsistent]

I have no need for a 92 on my layout, but I am considering diving in for one purely to support Dave Jones. DJM is a fledgling company in competition with established multi-nationals and as such, vulnerable to being crushed at any time. I do this as a serial supporter of the underdog and also as the former owner of a similar type of business, which went on to succeed by being smaller, faster-moving and more innovative, but only after surviving the launch of products by better resourced competitors designed, in part, to kill us.

I don't know Dave, other than through RMWeb, but it is clear to me that the energy, skill and no small amount of courage he has shown deserve success - and our support, for with the models he is bringing to the hobby, he is benefitting us all.

I don't often contribute to these pages, preferring to lurk and enjoy the expertise of other modellers and the wonderful information RMweb delivers. I also signed up a yellow J94 (also useless for my SR layout) as a gesture of support for all that Andy Y has achieved.

I decided to chime in today, because I am exasperated by the attitude of some of the 'contributors' so far. Dave Jones, having (probably) put up his house in pursuit of his dream, worked untold hours and circled the globe to try and make it all come together, is rewarded by being accused of various forms of dishonesty by armchair-bound critics who seem to regard the thought of him making money out of 'his business' as distasteful and not 'social' enough.

WE have no right to complain:

Exclusive 92 models are being offered at a discounted price.

If enough people fancy one, you get your model. You potentially risk a £30 deposit.

After that, you can buy as many different, non-exclusive 92 models as you want, but at a higher market price.

Your original limited edition model meanwhile might be worth more than you paid for it, on eBay.

Where are we being cheated here?

WE need to see the bigger picture. If DJM makes money and grows, we get more toy trains to play with. One day, I hope, Dave Jones will have no choice but to make the Double Decker...though by that time I may have to worry about that sputtering Sun. 

[Steven B]

What I seem to be reading is that there is almost a willing acceptance from certain quarters that there should be a "First Dib's" policy. Model loco duplication is not unheard off Class 47, 37 are prime examples. Maybe Hornby should be sending the boys round to Oxford Rail's premises and suppressing Oxford's forthcoming Mk3"s.

 

The problem with calling "dibs" is at what stage to do it. I could announce that I'm going to produce a Fell in O, OO and N and then sit on the project for years as I collect information and find a factory; Another producer may already have pre-production models of the same loco. Should they stop production because I announced my model first?

 

Duplication of common locos like a class 37, 47 or 66 isn't too much of a problem. It's possibly an issue if the model in question is a less common prototype.

 

However, there's no reason if both DJM and Revolution have passed the point of no return that they won't both produce a class 92. Ultimately it'll be up to the individual as to who they decide to buy a model from.

 

Talking of "dibs" how long should they last for? There are plenty of models from most manufacturers that were announced years ago and where little progress has been shown since. At what point should that become "available" for others to have a go at?

 

Happy modelling.

 

Steven B.

[Wigan Wallgate OO Gauge]

I agree with the above comment completely! My layout doesn't even have OHLE but I'm purely investing due to Dave's effort put in and potential (which are both rare to come by in this industry). Maybe my 92 can be magical and have a hidden Diesel engine so I can run it *wink wink*! I can't wait to see this model develop as I really think you could top this industry.

[Great Western]

I've spent the last few hours reading throw the various threads and to say I'm confused is an understatement.

 

As I I understand it there are no (maybe) two N scale Class 92 models ?

 

I can't really see an issue with that as long as there isn't duplication on schemes and numbers, there are plenty of difference options to fill both teams return profiles.

 

However,

 

I'm not really impressed that a private email from one party or another has been made worldwide public, if the other party wanted the public to know their plans then they would have aired them, it's really not the place for another party to disclose private plans.

 

It has me wondering if I was to email persons involved would my private messages be aired online to ?

Over sensitive yes, but it does rises questions I feel.

 

The OO 92 from DJM was really at the top of my list of new toys in fact I was about to order one before all this kicked up.

 

I can fully understand the huge risk Dave has taken to start up DJM and he should be given massive respect for that.

But, there is a back log of future releases in all three scales that may well never see the light of day.

 

A large list of products for retailers like Hattons and Kernow is this taking attention away from the core in house products?

Obviously the commissions pay for the in house products, but then we have this wish list/brain fart list of models which are asking for us to fund the production again not an issue but this line requires trust and confidence that has been hit in my mind.

 

I know full well my lack of an order will be a prick in a rock in terms of the overall project and I'm glad because I want to see a high spec 92.

 

Regards

[lyneux]

The problem with calling "dibs" is at what stage to do it. I could announce that I'm going to produce a Fell in O, OO and N and then sit on the project for years as I collect information and find a factory; Another producer may already have pre-production models of the same loco. Should they stop production because I announced my model first?

 

Duplication of common locos like a class 37, 47 or 66 isn't too much of a problem. It's possibly an issue if the model in question is a less common prototype.

 

Well said!

 

The difference between DJM and other manufacturers seems to be that DJM "call dibs" at the beginning of the process, whilst other manufacturers keep quiet until later in the process. It doesn't make one right and one wrong: they are just different ways of approaching things. Many of the posters on this thread (on both sides of the argument) would do well to remember that. At the end of the day it is both parties who have been wronged through no fault of their own.

 

Guy