NEW OO gauge Crowdfunded Class 92 initiative

[letterspider]

Hi mate,

 

Despite a few early glitches with other models, all spares will be available for this model from release via my web site.

Cheers

Dave

 

Thanks

I have pre-ordered a GBRF livery

[letterspider]

Hmmm, this has been covered many times before, okay yes, however the Hornby model is shamefully toy-like by today's standards, and I would have guessed only really suitable for the train set market.  The term "comparing apples with oranges" springs to mind...

 

I agree - but look at a Hornby TTS 47 going for £59. What happens when Hornby does a 92 TTS for £60...? answer - they would probably sell like mad

[John ks]

I agree - but look at a Hornby TTS 47 going for £59. What happens when Hornby does a 92 TTS for £60...? answer - they would probably sell like mad

 

Buy a Hornby TTS, gut it and use the sound unit in your DJM's92 &sell the rest on some online auction sit where some people go crazy to win, might even make a profit

 

John

[letterspider]

Buy a Hornby TTS, gut it and use the sound unit in your DJM's92 &sell the rest on some online auction sit where some people go crazy to win, might even make a profit

 

John

Yes that would be obvious, however be warned - the TTS chip really is a very basic and low power output chip. I learned the hard way when I fried a 47 TTS chip which couldn't cope with the current draw of a Heljan 47 motor. My guess is Dave's motors would be of a similar or better quality to Heljan's.  

[shunny]

The type of modeller who buys a top of the range class 92 from DJ is not going to be troubled at the thought of Hornby doing a TTS sound version. The TTS range is good as a starting point for sound but is a different market to what Dave is offering.

Most modellers who spend £150 on a model are not going to be in the market for a railroad model with budget sound and looking at Hornbys cancelled models many are top spec with TTS which don't seem to have much demand either.

[60800]

Hi Dave, 

  Do you have a set date for when the first invoice needs to be paid by, or indeed a list of the invoices and their relevant amounts payable over a certain timescale? 

 

What i'm basically asking, is if it is possible to pay the majority of the invoices once an EP has been seen and a firm price set.

 

Cheers,

  60800

[amwells]

This is a really good question. As soon as I got my invoice, I paid up. And will add the latest two announced versions in due course. Now... we have already seen with the rmweb J94 that expressions of interest don't always turn into sales and so:

a) is there any risk that this will not proceed if the invoices aren't paid in a timely manner; or

b) if the payment receipts are sufficient, is there a cut off at which point you have to say, regardless of whether you have expressed an interest or not, if you haven't paid, you are no longer in the crowd of funders?

 

I'm very keen for this project to proceed and (this is not aimed at 60800) Dave needs to be paid to keep the model progressing, but those who pay early shouldn't be doing so to help others who aren't willling to stump up early.

[Nile_Griffith]

Going to jump in here and offer my two penneth worth, hopefully without upsetting too manny or putting any noses out of joint.

 

Crowd funding (by whatever name) is a speculative investment. In the same way that venture capital is a speculative investment on the part of those investing capital in another person or groups existing business or proposed enterprise. As a participant in a crowd funding scheme, you as a funder have shown sufficient enough interest and confidence in the proposers offering to justify your financial commitment to the scheme.

 

Now Dave has put forward his idea, the development of the product and it's final production to the members here. In a nutshell. If you are happy enough to buy a stake in Dave's idea, then the return on your funding offered is one or any number of shiny new OO gauge Class 92 models delivered to your grubby little mitts (number dependent on the amount of funding you have offered).

 

Now if you are looking at this in the same way as say...... paying the deposit on a brand new model of car expected to be launched from a car manufacturer in a month or two's time. Then thats a different kettle of fish. It would be highly likely in this case that the car manufacturer will have already launched the model to the press and public at a number of motor shows and the car exists in the metal so to speak some months before they hit the showroom forecourts and the drives of their lucky new owners.

 

Crowd funding by and large is speculative. It is not incumbent on the person seeking funding for their project to adhere to particular guidelines, other than generally make it adequately clear to potential funders what their proposal is and what the funder can expect from his financial contribution to the scheme. What the various fiscal cut off points, break even levels and such like are and their impact on the project are the domain of the projects originator.

 

The nut shell is that you make your choice on the information proffered, if you in any way feel that it does not meet with your expectations of the project or how the scheme should be run, Then the best advice is not to make an involvement with the scheme. 

 

By and large crowdfunding is an act of faith and informed judgement. You either have a degree of faith in Dave's presentation and a belief that what he promises is deliverable. Or you wait for Bachmann or Hornby to make it.

[frobisher]

Crowd funding (by whatever name) is a speculative investment. In the same way that venture capital is a speculative investment on the part of those investing capital in another person or groups existing business or proposed enterprise. As a participant in a crowd funding scheme, you as a funder have shown sufficient enough interest and confidence in the proposers offering to justify your financial commitment to the scheme.

Crowdfunding is specifically NOT investment - HMRC is very clear on this, and it is not akin to venture capital. It may feel like that to the individual however. Crowdfunding is a pre-sales process, no more, no less.

 

Now Dave has put forward his idea, the development of the product and it's final production to the members here. In a nutshell. If you are happy enough to buy a stake in Dave's idea, then the return on your funding offered is one or any number of shiny new OO gauge Class 92 models delivered to your grubby little mitts (number dependent on the amount of funding you have offered).

And that is NOT investment. That is a pre-purchase. You're not a stake-holder in anything, you're committing to a purchase.

 

 

Crowd funding by and large is speculative. It is not incumbent on the person seeking funding for their project to adhere to particular guidelines, other than generally make it adequately clear to potential funders what their proposal is and what the funder can expect from his financial contribution to the scheme. What the various fiscal cut off points, break even levels and such like are and their impact on the project are the domain of the projects originator.

It depends on the method or facilitator of the crowdfunding, but at the end of the day, it's a commercial transaction and the various sale of goods acts etc. cover this in the UK.

 

The nut shell is that you make your choice on the information proffered, if you in any way feel that it does not meet with your expectations of the project or how the scheme should be run, Then the best advice is not to make an involvement with the scheme. 

 

By and large crowdfunding is an act of faith and informed judgement. You either have a degree of faith in Dave's presentation and a belief that what he promises is deliverable. Or you wait for Bachmann or Hornby to make it.

But I can't disagree with this though (though again, NOT investment).

[njee20]

It depends on the method or facilitator of the crowdfunding, but at the end of the day, it's a commercial transaction and the various sale of goods acts etc. cover this in the UK.

Not sure that's the case, you aren't buying anything, you're investing in return for a reward. HMRC is irrelevant. It's not FCA regulated, the Consumer Credit Act 2015 doesn't apply.

 

Just yesterday I was reading about a cycling innovation by a Dublin-based company funded through Kickstarter. It smashed its target, but 3 years later they've just said "sorry, we've failed, we've run out of time and money, we have no product and we can't offer refunds". This was on a c€500 product. You have no recourse in that instance.

 

You haven't bought anything. You've made a pledge to support them and will (hopefully) be rewarded with a product of value commensurate to your investment.

[60800]

This is a really good question. As soon as I got my invoice, I paid up. And will add the latest two announced versions in due course. Now... we have already seen with the rmweb J94 that expressions of interest don't always turn into sales and so:

a) is there any risk that this will not proceed if the invoices aren't paid in a timely manner; or

b) if the payment receipts are sufficient, is there a cut off at which point you have to say, regardless of whether you have expressed an interest or not, if you haven't paid, you are no longer in the crowd of funders?

 

I'm very keen for this project to proceed and (this is not aimed at 60800) Dave needs to be paid to keep the model progressing, but those who pay early shouldn't be doing so to help others who aren't willling to stump up early.

I don't know if I represent a majority or a minority, and I do understand the above alternative argument. I had to think for a while before posting as I didn't want to come across as someone just wanting to sit on the sidelines and let everyone else pay for the R&D, in fact far from it. I've been hit by a few pre-orders recently and that, combined with the start of Christmas shopping has left me in the position of needing to pay for something where payments to an unexact amount will keep randomly appearing whilst I'm paying for presents, other items I have planned / ordered and a holiday deposit etc. I want to pay for it and squeeze a 92 in somewhere, but I ideally want to start paying for it in full around late December and would happily pay the first installment now If a more set price was given, but worry that by that time, my order / expression of interest may be void, regardless of the email staying that the invoice will stay for the duration of the project. The fact that the invoice will stay means nothing to me, as it's what happens in the R&D and Dave's costs / income will be what affects how long I have got until I get my last window to pay. I hope this clears things up from my view, the only criticism being the time of year that has been chosen to announce this and the start of payments.

 

Cheers, 60800

Edited October 27, 2016 by 60800

[Jack374]

Why are we discussing what would happen if the proposed plans fall through? I'm sure Dave knows exactly what he's doing and (considering the amount of interest shown) the model will go forward smoothly, and be well worth the wait and any doubt.

Any updates on progress Dave?

 

In the meantime, here's a photo I found in my collection of a 'Dyson', with some weathering that might turn a few eyebrows at exhibitions!

 

"They're only model trains for goodness' sake!"

 

Jack

[njee20]

Why are we discussing what would happen if the proposed plans fall through? I'm sure Dave knows exactly what he's doing and (considering the amount of interest shown) the model will go forward smoothly, and be well worth the wait and any doubt.

Couldn't agree more, and in no way expect Dave to fail, but it is a significant distinction worth knowing about crowd sourced funding in general.

[DJM Dave]

Hi everyone,

 

After doing some qc on chassis, im currently round the other side of the world to that and am sitting in a bar on the galapagos islands watching the sea and the seals.

 

Please forgive me if i dont expand on any recent questions until im back on the 4th.

Cheers

Dave

[Hilux5972]

Hi everyone,

 

After doing some qc on chassis, im currently round the other side of the world to that and am sitting in a bar on the galapagos islands watching the sea and the seals.

 

Please forgive me if i dont expand on any recent questions until im back on the 4th.

Cheers

Dave

Enjoy a nice break Dave.

[Hilux5972]

Deleted Double Posting

Edited October 27, 2016 by Hilux5972

[Budgie]

Hi everyone,

 

After doing some qc on chassis, im currently round the other side of the world to that and am sitting in a bar on the galapagos islands watching the sea and the seals.

 

Please forgive me if i dont expand on any recent questions until im back on the 4th.

Cheers

Dave

Well, that's one way of avoiding the "trick or treat" people at Hallowe'en.

[tarifa]

It seems a bit daft to me paying up front for something that does not exist.

 

Mike

[DavidH]

Hi everyone,

 

After doing some qc on chassis, im currently round the other side of the world to that and am sitting in a bar on the galapagos islands watching the sea and the seals.

 

Please forgive me if i dont expand on any recent questions until im back on the 4th.

Cheers

Dave

 

Oh, a lovely part of the world, I'm very jealous. It's on my bucket list ... one day! Picture please!!

[PaulCheffus]

It seems a bit daft to me paying up front for something that does not exist.

 

Mike

Hi

 

However if no one pays upfront then it won't happen.

 

Cheers

 

Paul

[MGR Hooper!]

It seems a bit daft to me paying up front for something that does not exist.

 

Mike

 

You always have an option of not buying! The whole idea of a "crowd-funded" project, you pay for what you want that may otherwise not be commercially/financially viable for a manufacturer.

 

So sorry, not a DAFT idea. If Dave Jones and Ben Ando (DJM and RevolutioN) didn't have this model and it's N gauge counterpart done via a crowd-funder, we'd be waiting for probably another 4-5 years (and 2-3 price hikes) to get something like this from any manufacturer (and God forbid if Bachmann did it, it would've turned up in 2092).

Edited October 28, 2016 by MGR Hooper!

[srihaggis]

Just like paying for a holiday... it doesn't exist till its all over, but you have to pay up front.

[njee20]

Exactly like a holiday, but totally different

[frobisher]

Just yesterday I was reading about a cycling innovation by a Dublin-based company funded through Kickstarter. It smashed its target, but 3 years later they've just said "sorry, we've failed, we've run out of time and money, we have no product and we can't offer refunds". This was on a c€500 product. You have no recourse in that instance.

 

You haven't bought anything. You've made a pledge to support them and will (hopefully) be rewarded with a product of value commensurate to your investment.

The company they pledged support to (not invested in...) has breeched the kickstarter terms and conditions, simple as that.

[tarifa]

 

So sorry, not a DAFT idea. If Dave Jones and Ben Ando (DJM and RevolutioN) didn't have this model and it's N gauge counterpart done via a crowd-funder, we'd be waiting for probably another 4-5 years (and 2-3 price hikes) to get something like this from any manufacturer (and God forbid if Bachmann did it, it would've turned up in 2092).

The major players don't ask for the goods to be paid for up front, can you imagine the outcry if they did.  Other small manufacturers did not ask for "crowd funding", SLW produced their excellent Class 24 and then asked for payment if one wished to buy.  I still think punters are daft paying for something that does not exist.(btw what is the cost of this model £150, £170 ?) and we are still waiting for the Hattons King OK it's pre -order

 

I don't think holidays are quite the same thing as the not so daft people take full travel insurance in case something goes wrong and/or the company ends up bust.

 

Mike