NEW OO gauge Crowdfunded Class 92 initiative

[njee20]

I know that will be more expensive, might never happen but I prefer that than false the starts and stats and believe it will be fairer all round

Wait for what? The hope someone sells one that you do want second hand? Seems a bit daft to me. Each to their own.

[Roy Langridge]

Wait for what? The hope someone sells one that you do want second hand? Seems a bit daft to me. Each to their own.

Think you missed the point being made, the ones available are not what he wanted.

 

Roy

[lyneux]

Hi mate,

I'm very much against unbranded / un-decalled locomotives as there is proof that they simply do not sell in N and OO gauges. And i really dont think that even if i offered them, i would reach the MOQ, (minimum order quantity) to make it viable.

cheers

Dave

 

 

Dave,

 

I know this is old ground but why not open up this option to expressions of interest and then make a decision as to whether to produce it based upon the result? Personally, I'd far rather have a triple grey unbranded supplied with a set of decals than any of the other options. Might even take a pair.

 

Guy

[Fenman]

...

I know this is old ground but why not open up this option to expressions of interest and then make a decision as to whether to produce it based upon the result? Personally, I'd far rather have a triple grey unbranded supplied with a set of decals than any of the other options. Might even take a pair.

...

 

Rapido in a recent newsletter told us they were discontinuing their unnumbered locos because sales were consistently poor. 

 

Dave is telling you the same thing. The behaviour of Bachmann and Hornby also seems to suggest the same thing.

 

There are loads of things I would love the manufacturers to produce, but I'm guessing, while I may be enthusiastic, I may not necessarily be completely representative of the entire marketplace. How many dead horses should we expect manufacturers to flog for us, with their money?

 

Paul

[SRman]

Rapido in a recent newsletter told us they were discontinuing their unnumbered locos because sales were consistently poor. 

 

Dave is telling you the same thing. The behaviour of Bachmann and Hornby also seems to suggest the same thing.

 

There are loads of things I would love the manufacturers to produce, but I'm guessing, while I may be enthusiastic, I may not necessarily be completely representative of the entire marketplace. How many dead horses should we expect manufacturers to flog for us, with their money?

 

Paul

 

Simon Kohler, before he left Hornby, said as much. They tried offering locomotives with alternative number stickers in the box, but the upshot was that buyers didn't really use the facility much, preferring to leave the original names and numbers in place. Many that did choose to use the alternatives applied them poorly, according to Simon. I'm inclined to believe him, as he did keep an effective finger on the market pulse most of the time (even when being overruled by his bosses).

 

Heljan tried it in OO (class 47), and also still do this in O scale. The OO models still hang around in some shops and seem to sell for relatively cheaper prices, from my own observations.

[Matt]

I'm afraid that whilst I would generally support such an initiative, evidence suggests unnumbered versions don't sell.  In addition to those listed above, Rail Exclusive did numbered and unnumbered RFD 47s and seemed to be left with the unnumbered ones for longer, and have not repeated unnumbered versions since.  This was despite their unnumbered versions each being supplied with a very generous range of etched plates as well as all transfers.

M

[lyneux]

Apologies, but "this is the way it's always been done" is a poor argument. And whilst we're at it, so is "such and such doesn't sell" with absolutely no evidence to back it up (unsurprising as manufacturers are hardly likely to publish their sales figures).

 

My suggestion was that Dave adds the un-numbered option up for expressions of interest. He doesn't need to commit either way to producing it and he gets to find out (from the very people who will buy it) whether or not it will sell. Win-win.

 

Guy

[Fenman]

Apologies, but "this is the way it's always been done" is a poor argument.

...

You've completely misunderstood: that is not what is being said.

 

Rapido have been selling unnumbered locos. They are now going to stop doing so because sales are so poor.

 

How is that an example of Rapido saying "this is the way it's always been done"?!

 

Paul

[JSpencer]

Apologies, but "this is the way it's always been done" is a poor argument. And whilst we're at it, so is "such and such doesn't sell" with absolutely no evidence to back it up (unsurprising as manufacturers are hardly likely to publish their sales figures).

 

My suggestion was that Dave adds the un-numbered option up for expressions of interest. He doesn't need to commit either way to producing it and he gets to find out (from the very people who will buy it) whether or not it will sell. Win-win.

 

Guy

 

When I worked at the Signal Box in the early 1990s, unnumbered (and unpainted for that matter) locos, wagons and coaches really were such slow sellers. In the space of a year, we could shift 100 Dapol class 56s in the new sector liveries easily, but we took about 3 years just to sell five un-numbered ones.

 

The number of complaints and returned items we had on Bachmann A4s simply because they were unnamed (they provided etched plates for user to fit, and stopped using printed names for a while) was huge. Bachmann want over to etched plates because the printed ones did not have relief, and lost sales because of it until they provided both fitted printed names + separate etched ones.

 

The argument that people will buy the loco in multiples for the same livery if unnamed, looses badly because:

1/ the vast majority (easily 90+%) will not buy it as it looks/is uncomplete and they may not feel confident in getting tiny numbers lined squarely

           to many, it is not always a simple task, and very dissuasive on an expensive model whereby the end user is afraid of wrecking an all new model.

2/ few people want multiples of a class

3/ and when they do want multiples, they tend to want each member to be different liveries and/or different in details.

 

This is limited to people whom have built up experience and confidence in renumbering and renaming models. Those people probably started on second hand or cheap models, may have done some kits.

Of people that do actually do this, at least half of them will probably detail up an old Lima 92 to modern standards for a fraction of the price (I can think of several people on here who do just that), take real pleasure in doing that for a unique item rather than buying  a new ready to run model that *they* may often see as expensive.

 

So between the "not confident enough to risk spoiling a new model" to the "it is not a complete model without a number" and the "I can tart up an old Lima to the same for cheaper than that", the number of people willing to buy un-numbered items is very small.

Finally I suspect Dave (Hornby, Bachmann etc) all do have first hand figures showing either they were negligible on sales or worse.

 

(of course nothing wrong with asking people to see if they are interested. It could show things have changed).

Edited September 1, 2016 by JSpencer

[bigP]

Hope you don't mind my tuppence worth on this one Dave/folks. 

 

I'm in the market for an N 92 in Rfd or two, and whilst the 'unbranded' argument doesn't apply to this particular item (unless they secretly wore some coal logos at some point ),  I acknowledge the points raised by those in the business that 'unbranded doesn't sell' but I think that doesn't really compare fairly for a crowdfunded item where, presumably, the initial options should be more inclided towards the needs of those willing to put their cash up front.

 

I also don't think it's 'correct' to come to the 'it doesn't sell argument' when a fair game isn't being played here.

 

The only time I see the manufacturers release 'unbranded' locos they are always accompanied by the same model available at the same time in a variety of other liveries.  These fully liveried items will always sell more simply due to the fact that this hobby is over run by collectors and scalpers who will keep the item sealed in its box never to be opened, or to be sold on at twice the price once the shop stocks are exhausted.  But these people are not buying these items for 'modelling'.

 

As a modeller I for one would relish having unbranded, unnumbered locos.  Removing the factory branding and loco number always leaves a scar on the factory finish and there's nothing we can do to stop that.  I've now come to despise these factory printed nameplates as they leave the most scarring of all.

 

When I think of recent N releases of which I have multiple, say for example the Farish 37s, how wonderful it would have been if they'd just produced two-tone grey locos with the split or centre headcodes and left me to add loco and sector branding (Rfd, Metals, Coal, Petroleum) as per my choosing.  Would save me scarred models and I would likely have purchased more.  But these models aren't produced for modellers like us on this forum, they're produced for collectors and scalpers.

 

However, this is a crowdfunded option where perhaps the more likely buyer is a modeller?

 

A good example for this would be the current crowdfunded N 320/321 being offered by Revolution.  As each livery requires a minimum order to prodcue the notion was put forward that an undecorated/plain unit might be useful to those modellers whose preferred livery doesn't make the cut.  Whilst the model is still in 'pre-order' phase and the final decisions haven't been made, Revolution have at least given us customers the option of an undecorated model.  I myself ordered a couple just to use as the basis for conversions to 456 units as it will save me a lot of work stripping off a factory finish that I don't want.  And whilst it may not make the cut, at least Revolution have given me the option for my modelling.

 

Despite all of this I can't help but think that this matter will always be a non starter for the big manufacturer main releases, simply because even if for exapmle, a non numbered, non named yet branded EWS 92 was offered alongside the 'full liveried' option I'm quite sure the factory would demand a minimum order on both items.  Despite the physical simplicity of just leaving off the loco numbers/names from a set number of models the factory are only interested in making money, so why would they leave off the numbers/branding from some items when they can force Dave into paying for a minimum on everything.  Kerchinga!

 

 

I've spent my tuppence now, and turns out you now have to spend 50p at a N.R. station!  Capitalism eh

Paul

Edited September 1, 2016 by bigP

[sc2016]

Why don't you do the fundraising like you did with the class 71 with Kernow Model Rail Centre?

[srihaggis]

Just going back to earlier comments about paying with credit-card etc, maybe i'm just too soft but I have no issues handing money over to DJM even though i've not had any direct dealings yet. Given the products he's already produced or about to release, i'm sure it will be worth it and he's not a 'first timer' in the industry, so i'm sure he's got a sound business plan in place to be able to fulfull his offer. I'm rather liking the idea of being able to pay bit-by-bit, though i'll be paying by debit rather than credit as I don't have the latter card.

[cambo74]

Do a Bachmann in numbered large logo 37 or one in BR blue and see how many of them are left after release - I'd wager not many !!

Sometimes it's down to choice of livery or class that has un numbered versions available ......

[njee20]

I'm in the market for an N 92 in Rfd or two, and whilst the 'unbranded' argument doesn't apply to this particular item (unless they secretly wore some coal logos at some point )

Well it does, because the same two tone grey with blue roof can be used for - original BR, SNCF, RfD and EWS with beasties.

 

I still wouldn't want an unbranded one though, and wouldn't get one even if it was offered. I'll get an RfD one to convert, I'd never manage to get loco numbers right, and removing a single logo and adding one is easier than having to add lots of numbers, arrows, depot plates and logos to an unnumbered model.

 

I'm definitely in the 'not adept enough to start modifying expensive models' category, but without my first choice of livery I've no choice!

[hammy]

Hi Dave have expressed interest no conformation email

[DJM Dave]

Hi mate,

Am out at the moment.

Give me a couple of hours and I'll confirm your interest

Cheers

Dave

[hammy]

No rush Dave

[John ks]

The roof of this loco looks to have the perfect gap (see the red arrows) all the way around it to make a removable roof very easy to design

 

A removable roof held in place with magnets gives easy access for replacing/ installing decoders or operating any switches for lighting or track/OH changeover switch

 

 

John

 

 

[VXDH92]

Hi Dave,

 

I went on the DJM site a couple of days ago and put in for 92023 and 92001 (non-DCC). I haven't had a confirmation email yet. Could you let me know if you've got my indication of interest? Really excited about this project; I have so many old 25kv models that need replacing.

 

RE your inside info on the class 86 / 87 front (two locos I have waited far too long for decent versions!), do you have any idea when there may be an announcement from the companies involved? And if so, can you say?

 

Thanks,

 

Dave.

[DJM Dave]

Hi Dave,

 

I went on the DJM site a couple of days ago and put in for 92023 and 92001 (non-DCC). I haven't had a confirmation email yet. Could you let me know if you've got my indication of interest? Really excited about this project; I have so many old 25kv models that need replacing.

 

RE your inside info on the class 86 / 87 front (two locos I have waited far too long for decent versions!), do you have any idea when there may be an announcement from the companies involved? And if so, can you say?

 

Thanks,

 

Dave.

Hi Dave,

 

Thanks for the mail.

I can confirm your order came through and was allocated for you.

 

As for the 'other companies'? No i have no idea, it could be Warley, it could be next year.

 

Cheers

Dave

[VXDH92]

Hi Dave,

 

Thanks for the mail.

I can confirm your order came through and was allocated for you.

 

As for the 'other companies'? No i have no idea, it could be Warley, it could be next year.

 

Cheers

Dave

 

Thanks Dave.

 

It could be an extremely exciting couple of years for those of us modelling WCML.Unfortunately, it looks like a Virgin class 90 is miles away given that the first Bachmann Class 90 releases haven't even made it yet! Hopefully I'll be able to get Oxford Rail Virgin MK3s and Virgin 86s and 87 from the mystery manufacturers.

[GordonC]

Thanks Dave.

 

It could be an extremely exciting couple of years for those of us modelling WCML.Unfortunately, it looks like a Virgin class 90 is miles away given that the first Bachmann Class 90 releases haven't even made it yet! Hopefully I'll be able to get Oxford Rail Virgin MK3s and Virgin 86s and 87 from the mystery manufacturers.

 

Its about time too after they've been consistently ignored for years!!!

[Scottish-Exile]

Just found this thread but had already signed up for 2 locos having seen a snippet in this months Hornby mag. Having read here that payment is by installment, I'm about to order a couple more as I had stopped at 2 given the thought of a large initial outlay (one of them sound fitted)

 

Am I right in thinking that these aren't a one-off production run, but if they sell well, then a future release may come in a year or two with new liveries/numbers? I like that approach as it again allows the cost to be spread out.

 

This seems a better approach than say Revolution/Rapido who are only going to produce a set amount to order and if you miss the boat, tough. I've got a deposit down on an obscene amount of the Revolution TEA wagons, ordering a rake of 21 up front. Far more than I need or want just now but in a few years time I don't want to be kicking myself that I only had the one livery and didn't get more at the time.

[DJM Dave]

Just found this thread but had already signed up for 2 locos having seen a snippet in this months Hornby mag. Having read here that payment is by installment, I'm about to order a couple more as I had stopped at 2 given the thought of a large initial outlay (one of them sound fitted)

 

Am I right in thinking that these aren't a one-off production run, but if they sell well, then a future release may come in a year or two with new liveries/numbers? I like that approach as it again allows the cost to be spread out.

 

This seems a better approach than say Revolution/Rapido who are only going to produce a set amount to order and if you miss the boat, tough. I've got a deposit down on an obscene amount of the Revolution TEA wagons, ordering a rake of 21 up front. Far more than I need or want just now but in a few years time I don't want to be kicking myself that I only had the one livery and didn't get more at the time.

Hi,

Crowdsourced models will not appear in the same livery/number combo once the model is released at a much higher price to the trade.

I'm also going to give the crowdsourcers certificates with these models, and a special DJM class 71 style box in both N and OO. Although the N gauge one might be a sleeve around the plastic box.

 

I will Honour, up until the time of manufacture and therefore stock cut off point any existing crowdfunded that wishes to purchase any further models at the lower price.

 

But to be fair on crowdfunders anyone who comes late to the party, I.e. After the crowdfunding has closed and before rpfowill not be able to get a crowdfunded model

 

Cheers

Dave

[Jack374]

Hi Dave,

 

Just wondering whether it'd be possible to do another chart without figures showing just how close or otherwise we are to reaching the MOQs on each version. Now it's been released to the press and a few magazine issues have already hit the shelves with a bit about the model in it, it'd be nice to see where we're at.

 

Just a suggestion!

Thanks,

Jack.