Underground depots

[StuartM]

And, also on the Bakerloo, you can actually ride through the stabling shed at Queens Park https://150greatthingsabouttheunderground.com/2013/08/27/125-the-carriage-shed-at-queens-park/ which provides an interesting reason for a day out, if you are really, quite incredibly bored.

 

K

Thank you for explaining that, I went through there a couple of weeks ago, when I was ticking the Bakerloo line off the list, and now Queens Park makes sense.

 

[StuartM]

My favourite tube map,

While at Waterloo I was tempted to take a photo of the depot just beyond the platform, but there was a big sign saying "No Flash photography"

[Gwiwer]

Thank you for explaining that, I went through there a couple of weeks ago, when I was ticking the Bakerloo line off the list, and now Queens Park makes sense.

 

 

 

As I mentioned above though not everyone might have read the entire length of that post

 

Travelling through the shed at Queens Park you also change over from LUL to LOROL traction arrangements.  The "DC Line" has to allow for both LOROL class 378 trains on 3rd rail and LUL 1972 tube stock on 4-rail systems meaning there is an extended gap in the conductor rails at the north end of the shed and through the crossover to the NR route.  All but the emergency car lights go out while traversing this section.  The LOROL route, known to most as the "DC Line" ever since its electrification, has its outer rails bonded to both running rails for class 378 use and to the centre rail for tube stock use.  The same situation arises between Gunnersbury and Richmond on the shared LOROL Overground / LUL District line route.

 

Until modern electronics replaced it there was a mercury-arc safety device suspended above the southbound connecting spur to the Bakerloo Line approaching Queens Park.  Traction current was fed through this which was safely above the roof level of tube stock but which would be struck and broken - thus immediately discharging the traction current - by a full-size train long before that reached harm in the form of the 12' diameter tube tunnel ahead.  Other locations which had the same set-up included Finchley Road and West Kensington.

 

Not so well known is the fact that LUL 4-rail electrification extends for a mile south of Queens Park via LOROL tracks to and slightly south of Kilburn High Road station.  A relic of the former 4-rail electrification through to Euston and Broad Street (via Primrose Hill) as used by class 501 units until BR converted them to 3-rail operation the extension exists now, and is occasionally used, for emergency reversal of Bakerloo Line trains heading south from Harrow / Stonebridge Park in the event that they cannot enter the tunnel at Queens Park and follow their normal route.  The south-end car shed could be used for reversals but might be full; a Kilburn reversal allows more flexibility.  I have seen this facility used once in recent years when I was surprised to find Bakerloo Line trains in all four platforms at Queens Park following a southbound disruption.  Bakerloo Line drivers will retain knowledge so it might get some planned use out of normal hours.

 

My favourite tube map,

While at Waterloo I was tempted to take a photo of the depot just beyond the platform, but there was a big sign saying "No Flash photography"

 

Flashlight photography is banned throughout the London Underground (even on open-air sections for consistency) on safety grounds; it could temporarily dazzle or blind a driver.  They don't like you taking photos at any time because there is no way for a staff member to know whether or not you have a flashgun fired up.  If you wish to take photos do so discreetly and if possible on a mobile phone as that attracts less attention.

[PhilJ W]

Photography is permitted on the Underground but you do get some staff being over-officious and stopping people from taking photographs. A few people carry a copy of the relevent rules in case of being stopped.

[Engineer_London]

By coincidence today I was sorting signaling scale plans at work, including the Bakerloo, so I can add a footnote to post 28 on matters at Queen's Park.  It has helped to find among the information a diagram of the 'Willesden Suburban' area signaling north of Queen's Park from BR days, although it was a scan of a faint and faded print.  Studying the collected information, it seems that the protection against surface and main line profile stock entering LU restricted clearances takes effect at the Up Line junction home WS8.  There are no SB protection measures in the LU Queen's Park controlled area.

 

The protections against setting/accepting a wrong route seem to be:  (i) LU train description appearing in the berth track for WS8; (ii) detection of Negative [centre] collector shoe [60' of isolated fourth rail on the approach to WS8 but can't make out quite where]; (iii) 'Scotchlite' noticeboard "BR trains must not run on to London Underground lines".

[Chris116]

SNIP

The LOROL route, known to most as the "DC Line" ever since its electrification, has its outer rails bonded to both running rails for class 378 use and to the centre rail for tube stock use.  The same situation arises between Gunnersbury and Richmond on the shared LOROL Overground / LUL District line route.

SNIP

 

 

 

The same situation also exists between Putney Bridge and Wimbledon with SWT running mainly ECS from East Putney to Wimbledon.

[caradoc]

Many thanks to Gwiwer for his excellent explanation of stabling facilities and the Circle Line issues. I do feel that the elimination of the circular service has led to Paddington becoming very poorly served by the Underground; For anyone travelling eastwards, to Euston, St Pancras, Kings X or Liverpool St, for example, there is either the trek to the H&C platform, or a change at Edgware Road, sometimes involving changing platforms via the stairs, and frequently seeing an eastbound train depart just as yours arrives. At least Crossrail will make getting to Liverpool St easier !

[royaloak]

The same situation also exists between Putney Bridge and Wimbledon with SWT running mainly ECS from East Putney to Wimbledon.

A few early morning and late night passenger trains are booked that way for crew knowledge reasons (Woking depot I think).

 

The 0042 Waterloo to Strawberry Hill is booked that way but it is worked by a Wimbledon crew from Waterloo to Wimbledon with the Strawberry Hill crew travelling pass on the train.

[Chris116]

There are a number of early morning and very late evening SWT services that use the line but during most of the day it isonly ECS to Wimbledon Depot.

[royaloak]

As you posted previously, why repeat?

[Chris116]

I did not think I was repeating myself. I had only mentioned the ECS in my first comment, you mentioned one passenger service and I agreed with you and added that there are some early morning as well as the late evening service you mentioned. I was only trying to complete the information that maybe you already know but many others may not know

[StuartM]

Alright lads, we were doing so well, lets keep it friendly.
All information is welcome.

Personally I'm not only pleased with the number of contributions to this thread, but also surprised at the level of detail, a lot of which is obviously coming from professional railway personal.
I'm up in town in a few weeks and hope to travel the entire Northern line during what seems like the only weekend for ever with out engineering works.

Are there any depots I should keep an eye open for along this line

[RJS1977]

Many thanks to Gwiwer for his excellent explanation of stabling facilities and the Circle Line issues. I do feel that the elimination of the circular service has led to Paddington becoming very poorly served by the Underground; For anyone travelling eastwards, to Euston, St Pancras, Kings X or Liverpool St, for example, there is either the trek to the H&C platform, or a change at Edgware Road, sometimes involving changing platforms via the stairs, and frequently seeing an eastbound train depart just as yours arrives. At least Crossrail will make getting to Liverpool St easier !

 

Personally I've found the change makes getting on to the Underground at Paddington simpler - prior to the change, I never knew whether the next eastbound train would be departing from the H&C station or Praed Street (unless I could see a train in the H&C station on arrival, which was generally an indicator to go  Praed Street as the H&C train would have left by the time I made it to the platform). At least now all the eastbound trains go from the H&C station and provided you sit in the right carriage of the main line train, I don't think it's significantly further to walk to get to the H&C platforms than Praed street (though further than it used to be since the H&C station was rebuilt).

 

It would however have made matters simpler had the pre-War proposal to reroute the H&C along the south side of Paddington station and into the platforms at Praed Street been taken up. This would have simplified the Crossrail works as the Crossrail station could then have been along the north (relief) side of Paddington station rather than the south.

 

 

All this talk of the Tube at Paddington reminds me of an amusing incident during last month's "Tube Olympics" Zone 1 Challenge (i.e. visit all the Underground stations in Z1 in the shortest time). Two competitors had independently derived almost identical routes commencing from the designated start at Hyde Park Corner. Despite their best efforts to lose each other, the two were both travelling in the same northbound Bakerloo Line train an hour later, having dogged each other's footsteps throughout. At Edgware Road (Bak), both ran under the Westway to Edgware Road (Circle/H&C/District) - the Bakerloo Line platforms at Paddington (which for Tube Challenging purposes count as part of Praed Street, with the H&C station being separate) being closed for escalator replacement in conjuction with Crossrail - where one took a southbound District Line train to Praed Street and the other an eastbound H&C to Paddington H&C. Each then ran through the main line station to the "other" station, passing each other by the Burger King on the GWR concourse, before catching trains back to Edgware Road to knock off the northern side of the Circle Line. At ER, the guy who had just left Praed Street crossed the station and jumped into an eastbound Circle Line train to find himself in the same carriage as the other traveller. They were then unable to lose each other for the rest of the challenge and completed it with identical times!

[RJS1977]

I took this a couple of weekends ago and I always think this would make a great little depot layout

 

Not dissimilar to a layout built by a certain former RMWeb member...

[StuartM]

Ha ha good story, although I will disagree with regards to your comments on east bound circle line trains.

I come up to the capital from the west country once a fortnight and the train usually arrives in platform 1, believe me the walk from the front of a train in platform1 is quicker to the east bound platform on the circle line than it is to Prade St, although as I write this, it does strike me that if one were to travel in coach C which stops nearer to the pedestrian bridge half way down the platform, then perhaps Prade St might me the quicker option.

Mind you I have found myself waiting for a circle line train for over 15mins on a number of occasions on a Saturday regardless of which station I use.

The trick to catching a non change service from Paddington to Kings Cross is to catch a H&C train to Barking which does mean the use of Prade St, but personally I prefer the circle and district line station because of the Victorian architecture rather than Prade Streets modernist concrete nod to Birmingham new st. Alternatively, take a west bound circle line and enjoy the longer ride.

 

Any links to said model?

[RJS1977]

Praed Street is the Circle/District station, not the H&C one.

[RJS1977]

PS - a quick measure up on Google Maps gives works out at approximately 250m from a point about 2/3 of the way along Platform 1 to the H&C Platforms and 300m to Praed Street. Acknowledging that my guess of the position of the bridge may be slightly out but even so not a lot in it either way.

[PhilJ W]

Any links to said model?

Its called 'Croxley, Wiggenhall Road' you can find it on the District Dave forum or on Facebook.

[Gwiwer]

Northern Line depots are, in common with most other lines, notoriously hard to see from passing trains or public areas.

 

Edgware has sidings adjacent to the station
Golders Green depot can be seen as trains enter and leave at the south end of the station though you see nothing but a brick wall from the platforms

Highgate depot is not within sight of a running line

High Barnet has sidings adjacent to the station
Morden depot is beyond the passenger terminus out of sight but can be glimpsed from trains passing by on the Thameslink "Wall of Death" between Wimbledon and Sutton close to Morden South station.

 

At Paddington the Circle / District Line platforms west of the main line station beneath Praed Street itself are identified by that name.  The H&C / Circle Line island platform numbered 15 and 16 together with the GWR "suburban side" island 13 and 14 are collectively known as "Bishop's Road" or sometimes "Paddington Suburban" as they are almost a separate station from the main line side.  The continuous numbering with the main line series is worthy of note.  LUL platforms are normally numbered in their own unique series which duplicates the main line station numbering.  At Paddington the Praed Street platforms are 1 and 2, the Bakerloo Line is 3 and 4 but the H&C side at Bishop's Road retains its past connection to the original GWR which part-funded the first underground line in return for running powers.  Through trains from the Thames Valley (initially on the broad gauge) ran to Moorgate Street, as it then was, and the platforms so used have remained numbered in a consecutive series across the main line station to this day.  It will be interesting to see what happens when the Crossrail platforms beneath Eastbourne Terrace open as they are on the other side of the station.  Will they be 17 / 18, A / B or something else?

 

"Bishop's Road" incidentally does not exist.  In full it is Bishop's Bridge Road.  I can only speculate that before the coming of the railway and therefore of the massive bridge over the western approaches to the station that it was simply "Bishop's Road".  In the days of the class 117 suburban DMUs a distinction was made, if the driver remembered or was aware of the intended platforming, in destination displays.  "PADDINGTON" meant platforms 1 - 10 )11 and 12 were for parcels use at the time) and "PADDINGTON [sUBURBAN]" with the bracketed suffix in smaller letters beneath referred to Bishop's Road island.  The latter was normally used only by the Slough stoppers and at peak times for other trains if required.  Currently is sees use by the Greenford trains and a good number of Reading, Oxford and other workings usually those which are regarded as "stoppers".

[StuartM]

My mistake for mis naming my Paddington's, which when you think about it has 3 separate tube stations

Circle & District  (What I think of as the main tube station)

Hammersmith & Circle  (the horrible modernist one over the bridge)

Bakerloo  (the grotty one that's just reopened after 12 months, but with no visible signs of improvement)

[L49]

My mistake for mis naming my Paddington's, which when you think about it has 3 separate tube stations

Circle & District  (What I think of as the main tube station)

Hammersmith & Circle  (the horrible modernist one over the bridge)

Bakerloo  (the grotty one that's just reopened after 12 months, but with no visible signs of improvement)

 

Can I just throw up a pedant alert and apologies before going any further, but the Circle, District, Met and H&C have never been 'tube'. I know colloquialism lumps the whole of the Underground network in as the Tube, but strictly speaking it is only the deep level lines that can claim the title.

 

Apologies again. I'll go and count rivets for a while now... 

[StuartM]

Can I just throw up a pedant alert and apologies before going any further, but the Circle, District, Met and H&C have never been 'tube'. I know colloquialism lumps the whole of the Underground network in as the Tube, but strictly speaking it is only the deep level lines that can claim the title.

 

Apologies again. I'll go and count rivets for a while now... 

Right ho,

Circle, District and Hammersmith&City = cut 'n' cover

Everything else = the tube, except when its above ground, which apparently is over half of it.

 

[RJS1977]

My mistake for mis naming my Paddington's, which when you think about it has 3 separate tube stations

Circle & District  (What I think of as the main tube station)

Hammersmith & Circle  (the horrible modernist one over the bridge)

Bakerloo  (the grotty one that's just reopened after 12 months, but with no visible signs of improvement)

 

Certainly for Tube Challenging purposes (and judging by Gwiwer's post, for TfL purposes too), the Bakerloo platforms are considered part of Praed Street station as it is possible to get from one to the other without passing through ticket barriers.

 

(I know you can get from Bank to Monument without passing through ticket barriers either but they're regarded as separate stations because they have different names!).

[stewartingram]

Certainly for Tube Challenging purposes (and judging by Gwiwer's post, for TfL purposes too), the Bakerloo platforms are considered part of Praed Street station as it is possible to get from one to the other without passing through ticket barriers.

 

(I know you can get from Bank to Monument without passing through ticket barriers either but they're regarded as separate stations because they have different names!).

 

And the 2 separate stations have separate staffing. There is a Station Supervisor for each one.

 

Stewart

[Old-sparky]

All of the underground at Paddington is treated as one station for ticketing purposes - if you change from bishops road to praed street, and don't spend absolutely ages in the process, it is treated as being part of the same journey, not ending one and starting another.

 

It is worth googling around for pictures of the old bishops road station; fascinating place, where after electrification steam locos were exchanged for electrics and vice versa on the through suburban to city trains.

 

Kevin (Nearholmer, logged in under an old identity)