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StuartM

Underground depots

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A few missing bits, the Circle was also staffed by Parsons Green District crews on Sundays using District trains, until the advent of the C69s these were usually CO/CP stock for a very obvious reason: Met crews weren't trained on Q or R stock! However, that didn't stop the occasional Q or R venturing onto the Circle. A favourite trick of some mischievous crews was to ask for a physical needs break at Baker Street, when the train would sit blocking the line until the motorman or guard had finished their ablutions!

 

District trains also ran from Wimbledon to Aldgate, Moorgate and Liverpool Street until the 1972 timetable changes on Saturdays. I suspect this was in connection with football at Chelsea or Fulham, as the service didn't run during match times! I published a list of workings on the District Dave site a while ago. 

 

Some of the District Circle workings came from Parsons Green, some from Triangle Sidings which was under the BEA air terminal. Two trains in each direction were provided by the DR with meal relief being rostered at Gloucester Road with the crews using Earls Court canteen if they so wished. Some tended to use the licenced buffet at Gloucester Road!

 

The joint stock mentioned by Gwiwer was part of the Q stock fleet, some cars were originally owned  by the LMS when the LTSR ran joint DR trains along the jointly owned bit between Whitechapel and Bow Road. Stock identification was seen on the cast step plates by the passenger doors.

 

Rickmansworth men also had rostered turns on the Circle Line in the days of A stock and C69 stock. These turns were for some reason not popular with Ricky men. :) The Circle was mostly run by Baker Street and Neasden men in the early 1970's. Barking (Met) men didn't do the south side of the Circle, signing only to Hammersmith, but in those days the H&C only went to Whitechapel during the day. Barking District men didn't sign the top of the Circle, but knew all the District except Olympia and to Edgware Road. Hammersmith Met men didn't do the Circle either. I can't remember if Uxbridge men worked the Circle, but why should they have escaped the punishment?

 

Remember the other mixed line depot was Northfields until the DR stopped running to Hounslow West in the late 1960's. a pal of mine started as a DR guard at Northfields in 1968.

 

The other forgotten service on the Circle was the stock transfer from Neasden to Drayton Park, routed via Baker Street, Farringdon across to the widened Lines, then reverse along the Widened Lines up Hotel Curve at Kings Cross to Finsbury Park, then reverse down to Drayton Park. The 38 tube stock was top and tailed by battery electric locos and conducted by Kings Cross men from Kings Cross WL station (now Thameslink) and into Drayton Park. Before the flyover was removed, stock was transferred via the Northern Line, reverse at Finchley Central and down what is now the Woodland Walk to Finsbury Park, again hauled by battery locos.

 

I'm one of the few still around who can honestly say he worked on the underground in the steam days. Very often on the first trains to Edgware Road from Earls Court we'd follow a pannier tank on an engineering train round to Earls Court or to Edgware Road, where at Baker Street the steam loco would run round and go down the main to Neasden.

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The joint stock mentioned by Gwiwer was part of the Q stock fleet, some cars were originally owned  by the LMS

 

And the 1938 tube stock some cars of which were owned by the LNER and carried cast plates on the solebars to that effect.  That arose from the take-over of former LNER suburban lines to Edgware and High Barnet and the planned takeover of - and nearly opened - services to Alexandra Palace and Highgate via Crouch End.  Highgate station would have become a Northern Line crossroads.  

 

Thanks for the additional detail on crewing the Circle Line.  I was aware of (and mentioned) the District turns around the north side but wasn't aware of "Main Line" men other than some at Neasden being rostered to get dizzy.

 

 

 

the other mixed line depot was Northfields until the DR stopped running to Hounslow West in the late 1960's

 

Quite right though my comment referred only to current operations and also did not make specific mention of the CO / CP / C-stock berthed at Neasden for the Circle Line alongside the Metropolitan A-stock and Bakerloo / Jubilee 1938 / 1983 / 1996 tube stocks.

Edited by Gwiwer
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In the 1950s Circle Line (still widely referred to then as the Inner Circle) trains were formed of 5-car trains of O or P stock, converted to CO/CP when various changes were made including removal of the original Metadyne mechanism and the fitting of powered doors.  

O and P stocks had air-operated sliding doors from new, as did the Q38 stock. Older District cars were converted to air doors to run with the Q38 stock.

The East London line had a 2 road shed and stabling sidings at New Cross until the Overground came along. Sadly the building was demolished for no apparent reason as its footings are still there and nothing has been done with the land. Its in a narrow triangular cutting between the existing Southeastern lines to LBG and the single track Overground running to New Cross. Shame really. It would make a rather practical layout as far as size goes.

6-road shed:

 

28976954760_c88f581f58_b.jpgNew-Cross-Depot_ELL by Robert Carroll, on Flickr

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Not exactly depot related but of interest never the less,

These two videos really capture the underground back in the 80's (when the circle line was still a circle)

You forget just how run down everything was

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G31W3EZtwl0

 

Some right characters in this one

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hXTpngoTS-o#t=624.766349

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Many thanks to Gwiwer for his excellent explanation of stabling facilities and the Circle Line issues. I do feel that the elimination of the circular service has led to Paddington becoming very poorly served by the Underground; For anyone travelling eastwards, to Euston, St Pancras, Kings X or Liverpool St, for example, there is either the trek to the H&C platform, or a change at Edgware Road, sometimes involving changing platforms via the stairs, and frequently seeing an eastbound train depart just as yours arrives. At least Crossrail will make getting to Liverpool St easier !

 

It always annoys me when I see those electronic signs on LUL or announcements to the effect that all lines have a good service. The Circle Line has always been dreadful and the new arrangements have not made much difference. It needs an altogether more radical change to get rid of most of the flat crossings.

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It always annoys me when I see those electronic signs on LUL or announcements to the effect that all lines have a good service. The Circle Line has always been dreadful and the new arrangements have not made much difference. It needs an altogether more radical change to get rid of most of the flat crossings.

 

One thing that would help with the new configuration would be to quadruple track the section between Paddington and Edgware Road so that trains to/from Praed Street no longer share tracks with trains to/from Hammersmith.

 

I fear the flat crossings at Gloucester Road/HSK/EC and Aldgate would be rather trickier to deal with.

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It always annoys me when I see those electronic signs on LUL or announcements to the effect that all lines have a good service. The Circle Line has always been dreadful and the new arrangements have not made much difference. It needs an altogether more radical change to get rid of most of the flat crossings.

 

 

That would require a very radical approach indeed.  Whilst I agree that the Circle Line still suffers some significant delays and extended service intervals they are not all due to the existence of flat junctions.  Some are but those delays also afflict the other lines involved namely the District, Metropolitan and Hammersmith & City.

 

To remove flat junctions from the Circle Line would require an entirely new deep-level tube to be bored.  There simply is no way to remove Praed Street junction, Baker Street, Triangle Sidings and Aldgate junctions by "simple" grade separation.  

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One of the several reasons for the current way of operating the circle is that it makes all of the complex of services that operate over the circle more resilient - and it works. But, given the nature of the thing, it will always be a case of pleasing most of the people for most of the time. And, Gwiwer is right, the cost of removing all the flat junctions would be immense, and the money is better spent on crossrail, which will relieve both top and bottom of the circle and ( more vital) the central.

 

Kevin

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:ovely picture of New Cross depot. One of the reasons for not developing it is that there is no road access. I think there was pedestrian access from Edward St but nothing else.

 

 

 

Thanks

 

Dave

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Correct. There was a gate through a wall from the street, which led to a staff crossing over the single ELL track, but there was also an un official tradition of lifts in the cab, to avoid lots of walking.

 

K

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Correct. There was a gate through a wall from the street, which led to a staff crossing over the single ELL track, but there was also an un official tradition of lifts in the cab, to avoid lots of walking.

 

K

Nothing un-official about the cab-ride access. In later days there was a special short (very short) platform / staging for the use of staff visiting the depot.

 

Regards

Chris H

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And in the background of the photo of New Cross depot can be seen Stones' works - they were a well-known supplier of all sorts of bits and pieces to the railways, both in the UK and overseas.

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Stones Vapor Boilers, fitted to a lot of BR diesels.

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Can I just throw up a pedant alert and apologies before going any further, but the Circle, District, Met and H&C have never been 'tube'. I know colloquialism lumps the whole of the Underground network in as the Tube, but strictly speaking it is only the deep level lines that can claim the title.

 

Apologies again. I'll go and count rivets for a while now... 

While you're taking a tea break from the rivet counting I thought you might find this interesting

http://londonist.com/2016/09/a-guide-to-tube-pedantry?rel=handpicked

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While you're taking a tea break from the rivet counting I thought you might find this interesting

http://londonist.com/2016/09/a-guide-to-tube-pedantry?rel=handpicked

 

Probably written by Geoff Marshall, who as a former holder of the Guinness World Record for visiting all the Underground stations in the shortest time (and at least six other completions and probably countless aborted attempts/dry runs under his belt) knows his stuff. He's also put a lot of very interesting videos about the Underground (and Overground, Tramlink, and cable cars) on YouTube - mostly under the Londonist banner though not all Londonist videos are his.

 

One slight point of detail to add to the article though - the lines under the Embankment weren't "cut and cover" in the strictest sense as the land the District/Circle runs on at that point was reclaimed from the Thames by construction of the Embankment wall, the track was laid and the road built on top. So "cover" yes, but no "cut"!

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Pedant!

 

Remember too the Embankment had trams along it as well. :)

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Another weekend and another line ticked off the list, this time was the turn of the Northern line
With Photos of Golders Green and Finchley Depots

 

post-10866-0-04121700-1473083182_thumb.jpg

post-10866-0-80294000-1473083192_thumb.jpg

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Praed Street is the Circle/District station, not the H&C one.

I rarely let an opportunity to admit I was wrong go by :)

post-10866-0-89727200-1473083375_thumb.jpg

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Now for  a couple of questions that are slightly off topic, although as its about stock used on particular lines which are probably serviced by the same depots, there is a tenuous link (of sorts) .

 

I've noticed while travelling around that the stock on a particular line often has the line colour represented in the grab rails, flooring and vinyl's etc as a sort of line branding.

While on the Northern line this weekend I noticed that the stock had grab rails more representative of the Piccadilly line, the same with the floor covering, although there was some black in there as well.

 

Meanwhile on the Circle and, Metropolitan lines, grab rails etc and the flooring was both circle and District colouring. I get the circle and District are one in the same and interchangeable, but why hasn't the Met got its own colouring represented ?
 

 

post-10866-0-49515500-1473084150_thumb.jpg

post-10866-0-18957000-1473084159_thumb.jpg

post-10866-0-99424400-1473084169_thumb.jpg

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The Bishop's Road station, a.k.a Paddington Suburban or The H&C Station, was the original western end of the Metropolitan railway, with Praed Street being built about five years later, as part of the extension south-westwards.

 

The planned alignment of the extension was supposed to take it directly under the street, like Baker Street station, but for reasons lost (to me at least) in the mists of time, the station was actually built half a block eastwards in "trench and canopy" form. The track does a little jig either side of the station to achieve alignment with the street.

 

I've found very few photos of the original Bishop's Road station, so if anyone can point me to any, I'd be very grateful. What I have been able to discover about the station is in this thread http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/107223-bishops-road-paddington-what-do-we-know/ since when only one more photo has come to light.

 

Kevin

 

PS: grab rail colours now have to meet colour guidelines, so that they contrast with the background colours, and remain easily visible to people with poor eyesight. IIRC, all of the S-stock has yellow grabs, yellow being the colour that remains most visible as eyesight fades. D stock has green grabs, dating from the era of line-branding.

Edited by Nearholmer

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