'scrap' at preserved railways

[adb968008]

35 minutes ago, 298 said:

 

It is the only remaining class 45 built with nose doors and split boxes.

Now Peak noses (the yellow bit) are fairly interchangeable and another

it has a sealed beam end (without headlight), the nose end doors would surely have gone 5 decades ago. It would need new ends, which you can do for any 45.. but as D4/D8 tell the story already, why bother ?
 

i’d much rather see D5705/D8233 restored, these projects are 4 decades old, no ones had haulage behind these since end of steam. As side of the cost (i doubt sufficient funds would be raised from within the hobby, it would need to be a generous benefactor), wheres the parts going to come from to do it ?

Edited September 4, 2020 by adb968008

[Steamport Southport]

Great when people tell others what to do with their own engines.....

 

 

 

 

 

 

[pete_mcfarlane]

7 hours ago, DavidCBroad said:

With 11 other preserved class 45 wouldn't it be better to quietly strip it of re usable spares and cut it up.   

Isn't the problem with this particular loco that it was stripped for spares before it was sold for preservation?

[Pandora]

The intention is not the murder of the orphans, but to draw attention to their predicament.

Edited September 4, 2020 by Pandora

[russ p]

4 hours ago, adb968008 said:

it has a sealed beam end (without headlight), the nose end doors would surely have gone 5 decades ago. It would need new ends, which you can do for any 45.. but as D4/D8 tell the story already, why bother ?
 

i’d much rather see D5705/D8233 restored, these projects are 4 decades old, no ones had haulage behind these since end of steam. As side of the cost (i doubt sufficient funds would be raised from within the hobby, it would need to be a generous benefactor), wheres the parts going to come from to do it ?

 

I hear what you say but scrapping one loco doesn't mean others will be restored faster 

Nowadays locos such as this are like classic cars and owned by  individuals. 

I have a few cars and in the unlikely event of one been scrapped I certainly wouldn't give money or help to someone I didn't know who was restoring a completely different car.

The 45 isn't affecting anyone,  its not taking up too much room . Leave it alone 

[Gibbo675]

Hi Folks,

 

I spent eighteen years working at Riley and Son's of Bury and in that time I must have placed quite some tonnage of steam locomotive into the scrap skip, mostly with the assistance of a fork lift truck or Coles crane:

• Boiler tubes
• Back head plates
• Tyres
• Foundation rings
• Piston and valve heads
• Brake blocks
• Drag boxes
• Smoke boxes
• Frame stretchers
• Wheel spokes
• Inner and outer fire box wrappers
• Valve gear pins
• Crank pins
• Boiler barrel rings
• Axle box crowns
• Front and back tube plates
• Cylinder and valve liners
• Fire bars
• Tender tanks
• Chimney castings
• Piston rods
• Sections of main frames
• Copper pipes
• Ash pans
• Broken stays
• Cabs
• Axles
• Cladding sheets
• Main steam pipes

In fact enough to build a complete locomotive from except that all the bits were beyond redemption, the very reason for scrapping them in the first place.

 

The good news was that almost all of what went into the skip was replaced by new parts made form steel sourced from Ukraine, Turkey or China, or copper from India, whatever the stock holders had the best deal on at the time.

 

Gibbo.

[chris p bacon]

2 hours ago, russ p said:

The 45 isn't affecting anyone,  its not taking up too much room . Leave it alone 

 

I think the issue with 45015 is that the Battlefield line get no rent for it but are unable to have it removed as ownership is somewhat 'sketchy'. The asbestos means it is contaminated and cannot be moved easily and will be at cost to the railway. one or two of the axles are seized so it's probably easier to cover it with a tarpaulin and make it look tidier.

[25901]

From what I have been told and heard on the grape vine is that they don’t  get rent as they own her. I know this loco well as I helped do a survey on her when she was put up for sale by BR when she was at Toton. She was beyond saving then and from a  visit a couple of years ago I can say that there’s not much on her worth saving apart from the bogies that would still need a lot of money spending on. The asbestos problems is due mainly down to the steam heat boiler falling apart and the roof missing causing the asbestos to be in the open. This is a big issue as the loco is next to the running line and somebody has reported this to the relevant environment department. The railway has in my view has hoped that this problem would magically disappear but instead it may have come back to bite them. Big loco’s, big problems, just ask the owners of the two 40s with dead crackshafts.

[chris p bacon]

3 hours ago, 25901 said:

From what I have been told and heard on the grape vine is that they don’t  get rent as they own her.

 

I wasn't 100% sure when I posted,  but I think they took possession when the owners couldn't be found ?  Unfortunately they are now saddled with the cost of dealing with it.

[Northmoor]

9 hours ago, chris p bacon said:

 

I wasn't 100% sure when I posted,  but I think they took possession when the owners couldn't be found ?  Unfortunately they are now saddled with the cost of dealing with it.

This is likely to become a recurring problem for preserved railways, as individuals/groups who bought steam, diesel locos or rolling stock in the 80s and 90s, who have never had the funds (or they got spent on other projects, probably also incomplete) to restore them, have reached an age where they are now unable to be physically involved either.  So the stock sits and rots, which creates a bad impression to most visitors.

 

Some railways still don't seem to have learned this, but it shows the importance of having written agreements with anyone who wants to store their property on your railway.  Those agreements need a plan; a plan is not, "I'm going to restore it"; a plan states who is going to do what, by when and how it is going to be funded.  Too many get away with storing their personal junk rent-free at a railway because they are a well-known member and volunteer, although the item may not even have any real connection to the railway's location. 

 

There is something weird with many preserved railways having an inferiority complex about running industrial steam locomotives and don't believe they are really credible operations unless they have an ex-main line loco on site (even if it's in scrap condition).  How many railways would turn away someone who asked to store two non-operational coaches for an indefinite period, but have seemingly accepted an ex-BR locomotive in scrap condition for the same indefinite period? 

[adb968008]

On 06/09/2020 at 10:23, Northmoor said:

  Too many get away with storing their personal junk rent-free at a railway

 

There seems to be a belief that everyone buying a loco is a millionaire, buying play things they don’t care about.

most people don’t buy locos for a commercial reason.

most people buying a loco are pretty much average.

They buy them to save them.

 

Several times I’ve had chance to buy into a loco, but decided not to. I don’t have the technical skill, so I’d be dependant on help (or pay).

so instead I’ve sat back and watched things turn to dust, that maybe I could have played a part to save.

 

Others, better spirited have gone in with their just enough hard earned to save it, well intentioned, hoping that solution can present itself to restore them down the road.

But when volunteers don’t come, and they get comments about personal junk, jealousy and “it’s your problem“ comments, then it all comes back to “why even bother”.. which is precisely where I am where I sit.

 

Heritage only survives because people are willing to give it ago. But just because they open the initial pocket, doesn’t mean it’s deep enough and many others won’t open a pocket or even give a good word.

 

Many (If not most) locos are only here today because of that initial pocket saving them. That pocket neither being deep enough to restore it, or in a position to simply gift their hard earned away.
preservation all to often only champions winners, when its the losers that need help.

You do have to wonder sometimes, why bother, it amazes me what the hobby actually achieves given how fractious it can be.

 

 

Edited September 7, 2020 by adb968008

[pheaton]

The owner was found and the whole thing ended up in court, from what I remember the original owner couldn't afford the outstanding balance so the loco was taken in lieu of payment.

 

As regards the asbestos, its around the boiler mostly, and present in the field divert resistors (the latter is something all preserved diesels have) its also possible its in the cab rear bulkhead as well 45/1s had this all cut away but... this isn't a refurb 45 so its likely present still....

 

there is word amongst the class 45 groups that the intention is to cosmetically restore the locomotive and make it a static exhibit.

 

as regards scrapping it, it can't be disposed of until the asbestos has been removed, and the survey and removal outweigh the return on scrapping it, with the current financial climate it doesn't make sense to scrap it....

 

from memory its heads are still present, but all of its TM's have been removed the engine is beyond redemption as its been exposed to the elements for years (no side covers) the main generator and auxiliary generator could be retrieved (with enough cash) other than that the only other useful parts are fixtures and fittings, and the brake cylinders. 45/0s contain a number of parts unique to a 45/0 and they simply they are not available anymore.

 

As ABD touched on.... preserving a loco is one thing....but its knowing when to let go....I have come close to recommending to my committee members about one of our locomotives, but solutions have been found, but a serious mechanical failure in 26043 or 45149 could well result in an email from me saying....its time to let go gents.....and they move on to the next chapter of their lives....be it the scrap man or a new owner with better resources...

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited September 7, 2020 by pheaton

[Northmoor]

5 hours ago, adb968008 said:

 

There seems to be a belief that everyone buying a loco is a millionaire, buying play things they don’t care about.

most people don’t buy locos for a commercial reason.

most people buying a loco are pretty much average.

They buy them to save them.

 

Several times I’ve had chance to buy into a loco, but decided not to. I don’t have the technical skill, so I’d be dependant on help (or pay).

so instead I’ve sat back and watched things turn to dust, that maybe I could have played a part to save.

 

Others, better spirited have gone in with their just enough hard earned to save it, well intentioned, hoping that solution can present itself to restore them down the road.

But when volunteers don’t come, and they get comments about personal junk, jealousy and “it’s your problem“ comments, then it all comes back to “why even bother”.. which is precisely where I am where I sit.

 

Heritage only survives because people are willing to give it ago. But just because they open the initial pocket, doesn’t mean it’s deep enough and many others won’t open a pocket or even give a good word.

 

Many (If not most) locos are only here today because of that initial pocket saving them. That pocket neither being deep enough to restore it, or in a position to simply gift their hard earned away.
preservation all to often only champions winners, when its the losers that need help.

You do have to wonder sometimes, why bother, it amazes me what the hobby actually achieves given how fractious it can be.

 

 

I agree with a lot of what you've said.  I was involved - still am, to a degree - in loco preservation, as a hobby and not as an investment.  A hobby is an activity you are prepared to lose every penny you spend on it, because the reward is non-financial.

 

I don't accept this idea that locos like 45015 have been "saved", their destruction has only been deferred.  Civil or mechanical/electrical engineered structures need to be at least conserved, if not restored.  If someone bought a listed building threatened with demolition then for 20 years let it fall apart rather than sell it on, would we say they had "saved" it? 

 

The problem as you've described above is the individuals (it's not usually groups) who simply won't accept reality and sell their "project" on to anyone, even if that person or group has the skills, finance and time to achieve it.  The locos that were saved and are operating have done so because the right people had a plan and they worked to it.  The individual's hope that something will change to enable them to progress is flawed; one of the first rules of organisations is that Hope is Not a Strategy,  Unfortunately, the individual never achieves anything because as soon as they have any funds they buy another "project" which similarly never gets anywhere.  The loco group I've been involved with had such an chap associated with us in the early days.  He was always behind with rental payments until he stopped paying altogether.  While pleading poverty, he actually admitted he objected to paying rent as he believed his property was an "attraction" (even though all of it was un-restored); every time he had any funds, he acquired something else that never got conserved either.   If you can't even afford a tarpaulin, how are you ever going to afford any restoration?

 

Finally, some of these individuals (and my example above probably falls into this category) are such that no matter how laudable their project, no-one supports them because having spent a few hours in their company, it's obvious why they work alone.

[25901]

8 hours ago, pheaton said:

from memory its heads are still present, but all of its TM's have been removed the engine is beyond redemption as its been exposed to the elements for years (no side covers)

 

Yep. 

[Gibbo675]

Hi Folks,

 

With regard scrap as preserved railways I can, and indeed have, observed how things can go from the very best of intentions to total waste of time, money and energy from all involved.

 

There very often seems to be an overly optimistic view of any project which is certainly wrapped up with the enthusiasm that is the very reason for the interest in the first instance. Unfortunately once the enormity of locomotive restoration along with all of the financial outlays are laid out then enthusiasm often becomes reduced at worst case to depression with regard the project.

 

Steam locomotive restoration is hugely expensive especially when it comes to the manufacture of new parts, it is not just the cost of the materials but also the labour charges to manipulate them into whatever is required. With diesel and electric locomotives the parts are even more expensive to have manufacture by way of their very nature unless good secondhand replacement may be sourced. Defunct class 40 main crank shafts were mentioned in a recent post and I would dread to think what a new one of those might cost.

 

For instance, the replacement of a boiler stay takes approximately 30-40 minutes and should the entire firebox need replacement you can quite easily multiply that by 600-900 individual operations or to put it another way it would take two men working a forty hour week between 3.5 to 7.5 weeks to complete the job and this is before the requisition and manufacture of the new stays is taken into consideration. That job alone working weekends or evenings would take a lot longer.

 

The cost of materials, rent, crane hire, workshop facilities along with labour should you not have the available skill sets within your group all have to be paid for. Should a locomotive be under a tarpaulin then it may keep the rain off but it doesn't necessarily keep out the damp and previously done work can deteriorate which in turn cost more and then takes longer.

 

Most of the mainline registered steam locomotives I worked on just about made enough money after seven years running on both the main lines and preserved railways to pay for their next overhaul which is the very reason some of them appear to get "dumped" in sidings after a long and successful spells on the main lines.

 

The other problem is politics, I leave you to work that subject out for yourself !

 

Locomotives are industrial machines and really do require industrial scale facilities and budgets to facilitate, successfully, their restoration maintenance and operation. If I had three quarters of a million pounds going spare the last thing I would spend it on would be a locomotive. I would buy a house with an en-suite shed to house a huge train set and a fleet of Ducatis, far less trouble and expense.

 

Gibbo.

[Dan Griffin]

On ‎07‎/‎09‎/‎2020 at 19:39, 25901 said:

 

Yep. 

is that inside 45015! wow

[Reorte]

On 04/09/2020 at 10:53, DavidCBroad said:

The younger generation will like the locos they knew in their youth, Black 5's  A4's  Frying Scotchman, 64XX, S&D 7Fs, Hogwarts Castle the currently operational preserved locos, maybe recreations of them, but will they hanker after 800s?  I doubt it.   67s and 68s possibly. 

 

I hanker after ones from before my youth. That's different from nostalgia, which also has its appeal in the heritage sector, and I like seeing things from my youth on them for purely nostalgic reasons. So there will no doubt at some point in the future be some nostalgia for 800s, although finding somewhere for them will be rather more of a practical issue. Nostalgia doesn't necessarily equate with like (for similar reasons I've no issues with Pacers on preserved lines).

[AMJ]

There was an interesting letter received by the management at the Middleton Railway from a passenger whom has visited many other railways and was complementary about the lack of scrap road.  We have been working upon ensuring that the only items visible are tidy.

 

If you ride on many it's like a trip past a scrap yard and then through a green tree lined tunnel, not what passengers want to see.

[Reorte]

55 minutes ago, AMJ said:

If you ride on many it's like a trip past a scrap yard and then through a green tree lined tunnel, not what passengers want to see.

Yeah, you can get that on any ordinary railway (although the scrap's usually the other side of the fence there).

[Titan]

3 hours ago, Dan Griffin said:

is that inside 45015! wow

 

Yes, and I think it is a photo of the items in the best condition...

[adb968008]

Find a dark room, make sure no one is listening, close the doors, turn down the sound..

 

and google...

 

Zontar restors 45015

 

(delibrately spelt wrong). You’ll get to see much of its mechanical condition in the next 8 minutes, as well as being well and truly misguided and weirded out.

Edited September 11, 2020 by adb968008

[Gibbo675]

24 minutes ago, adb968008 said:

Find a dark room, make sure no one is listening, close the doors, turn down the sound..

 

and google...

 

Zontar restors 45015

 

(delibrately spelt wrong). You’ll get to see much of its mechanical condition in the next 8 minutes, as well as being well and truly misguided and weirded out.

Hi adb,

 

Best laugh I've had on a Friday night* for months !!!

 

*Actually it was Saturday morning, I stayed up past my bed time.

 

Gibbo.

[25901]

The one funny thing about 45015 was the number of different groups that looked her over and came to the same result that she was finished back then at Toton. One other group from the ELR even denied looking at her, my answer to that was does that mean you don't want your torch back that you left onboard lol

[Zomboid]

On 05/09/2020 at 20:54, 25901 said:

Big loco’s, big problems

They break your heart... I've been semi involved with 45132 for the last 15 years or so, and that's been quite a roller coaster. To be fair there haven't been that many high points, but the day I got to start her up and ride in the cab for a light engine trundle into Epping forest made the freezing days seemingly floundering at Ropley worthwhile.

 

And then on her final test run before going back into service, the main generator fails again.

 

I have infinite respect for the owner of that engine, the whole saga would have broken almost anyone, but he's still at it. It'll take a while, but I have no doubt that it will pull a train again.

Edited September 12, 2020 by Zomboid

[fezza]

On 12/09/2020 at 00:06, adb968008 said:

Find a dark room, make sure no one is listening, close the doors, turn down the sound..

 

and google...

 

Zontar restors 45015

 

(delibrately spelt wrong). You’ll get to see much of its mechanical condition in the next 8 minutes, as well as being well and truly misguided and weirded out.

 

That's one of the oddest things I've seen... 

 

And here's the rub - 45015 has now become a cult locomotive just because there is so little useable left. Personally I would love to see ancosmetic restoration, something where kids could climb in the cab, pull a few levers and enjoy it... We do this with steam locos all the time. 

 

Even that would be expensive but I have travelled passed it so many times it seems like a decrepid friend... One that you never really want to let go. Maybe it's just me...