'scrap' at preserved railways

[S.A.C Martin]

I've noticed quite a few people advocating for the scrapping of some of the ex-Barry engines. Call me a sentimentalist, but they aren't making anymore of them...

 

Are they really causing such a problem to people that they offend? There are countless engines in preservation today that were in various states of decay and somewhat worse than 34073 (249 Squadron), and are now in steam.

 

I don't buy that we have to write off any of them - if they are privately owned and the ultimate dream is to steam them again one day, good luck to them. If we'd all been this cynical in the 1980s, engines like 71000 might not be with us today in steam.

 

Jeremy Hosking has gone on the record saying he will buy 34073 if no one else will or can restore it - at least give him the chance to add it to his stable before we all cry out for the poor engine to be cut up...

[Pennine MC]

 

As for diesels, unfortunately I can see a few of these being broken up in the future, there are a lot of them preserved, and repairs/overhauls are only going to get more expensive as spares dry up, a cracked cylinder head or turbo charger in with a major overhaul and new tyres, could easily push costs into five figures, and generally speaking diesels do not have much appeal to non enthusiasts, unlike steam who even the general public can still appreciate.

.

 

Which reminds me, have they minced Deltic 16 yet?

 

 

 

 

 

['CHARD]

Naughty! That one's sticking around, but another ex-Waverley Route stalwart is going to bite the dust by the sound of it, in the hulking 16-wheel shape of doomed 45015 at Shackerstone.

 

 

[Hammer]

I don't particularly want to see more engines go to the cutter's torch, but equally there are only so many steam trains and preserved diesels the country can support on-track.

 

I'd suggest looking at things like donating engines to museums abroad or museums here which could house non-working engines in clean, protective environments, if not on display.

 

I do think that we could do with another transport museum dedicated to trains, complimenting the existing facilities in York, Shilingdon, Barrow and Swindon. Maybe in Scotland given the national collection and the Glasgow City collections both have a vast amount of railway items which won't fit in the new, ship-focused Glasgow Transport Museum (Not to sound like a one-trick Scottish pony or anything... ). Of course, while it's an idea which might have legs in the long run (the Government being big on funding these things), it's shackled by the recession just now. Can't help feeling that it might be something to genuinely take to Holyrood via the e-petitions system though. /tangent

[Sam Moss]

Agreed, my local - Midland Railway Butterley, suffers in this respect like many heritage lines. You travel from Butterley Station to Swanwick arriving past a long line of, well, scruffy rolling stock and what appears to be an on-track plant graveyard.

 

I as a shareholder have done my level best to encourage all my wife's friends with kids to visit and the common complaint from them is the "junkyard" appearance.

 

Of course storage is a problem, as is the lack of volunteers to help do something about it (plant a few trees maybe?)but it really is a shame that this is one of the first impressions that joe public get on arrival at Swanwick.

 

Yes, does look like a scrap yard. Hopefully this will slowely start to change now. Quite a few wagons will be leaving the line for scrapping / pastures new. The stored 4TC set is sititng waiting its turn for contract overhaul in Butterley Carriage shed, it will then be leaving line. There's also lots of Class 117 cars in store for Dorset County Council, all about a ton lighter thanks to the local metal theives. Over all, Swanwick should start to become a little more loved as vehicles leave, track gets renewed etc.

[298]

Naughty! That one's sticking around, but another ex-Waverley Route stalwart is going to bite the dust by the sound of it, in the hulking 16-wheel shape of doomed 45015 at Shackerstone.

 

14 wheels, two of the 16 aren't even touching the scrapline siding it is sitting on.

 

In all fairness it shouldn't have been brought in the first place. There aren't the spares available and if preserving another Peak was so important, all the money spent on it could have been used on other locos rather than an unrealistic atitude of yet another dreamer who wants to be a loco owner.

[S.A.C Martin]

14 wheels, two of the 16 aren't even touching the scrapline siding it is sitting on.

 

In all fairness it shouldn't have been brought in the first place. There aren't the spares available and if preserving another Peak was so important, all the money spent on it could have been used on other locos rather than an unrealistic atitude of yet another dreamer who wants to be a loco owner.

 

It is not a crime to be a dreamer, surely?

 

People seem to be rather scathing of the idea that people are allowed to buy engines in the first place with the hope of preserving/restoring them! Isn't this what preservation was all about, in the early days? Buying it before its gone, and then you'd definitely regret the missed opportunity? Wasn't enough lost like Ben Alder to the scrap man?

 

I just feel, unrealistic or not, who are we to judge the dreamer whose dream it is?

[RedgateModels]

Yes, does look like a scrap yard. Hopefully this will slowely start to change now. Quite a few wagons will be leaving the line for scrapping / pastures new. The stored 4TC set is sititng waiting its turn for contract overhaul in Butterley Carriage shed, it will then be leaving line. There's also lots of Class 117 cars in store for Dorset County Council, all about a ton lighter thanks to the local metal theives. Over all, Swanwick should start to become a little more loved as vehicles leave, track gets renewed etc.

 

Thanks Sam, good to hear. I've not been up for a while, used to volunteer years ago, before the Wrigley's shed went up and 80080 was in steam, so I can see just how far Butterley has come. The problem is the casual family visitor who comes along for a Thomas day doesn't know about all the hard work that has been put in over the years

 

It was also great to see the OTP graveyard come to life at the 25th Anniversary weekend, this ought to happen more often, but then I do have a special interest in such things .....

[gwrcolin]

I am suprised that the National Railway Museum has not approached the owner of this locomotive as in its current condition it would show another period of railway history.

['CHARD]

It is not a crime to be a dreamer, surely?

 

People seem to be rather scathing of the idea that people are allowed to buy engines in the first place with the hope of preserving/restoring them! Isn't this what preservation was all about, in the early days? Buying it before its gone, and then you'd definitely regret the missed opportunity? Wasn't enough lost like Ben Alder to the scrap man?

 

I just feel, unrealistic or not, who are we to judge the dreamer whose dream it is?

 

I've been parachuted into a few people's dreams and been badly burned every time, to the extent that my view of this is far from romantic these days. Once upon a time I would've looked on the likes of Tyne Yard and Margam as the New Woodhams, strategic reserves of the diesel era. But no, these places and their inhabitants are dream-breakers-yards. Not for nothing do the likes of DBS give up on trying to coax just one more 37 back to life, so something as past it as the Peak was always likely to end in tears. This is how I can rationalise the non-survival of D601 and 6122 that were cut when I was in my teens, they would have stood little realistic chance of returning to traffic only to be ignominiously scrapped many years later after many pound notes had been posted down the grid.

[298]

It is not a crime to be a dreamer, surely?

 

People seem to be rather scathing of the idea that people are allowed to buy engines in the first place with the hope of preserving/restoring them! Isn't this what preservation was all about, in the early days? Buying it before its gone, and then you'd definitely regret the missed opportunity? Wasn't enough lost like Ben Alder to the scrap man?

 

I just feel, unrealistic or not, who are we to judge the dreamer whose dream it is?

 

It's not worth repeating any specific comments regarding 45015, as there is a good summary on WNXX:

 

http://www.wnxxforum.com/interactive/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=10387

 

Looking at the general preservation scene, this loco wasn't rare and the fact that established Peak groups had dismissed it must indicate how low it was thought of. And being a dreamer is fine, as long as you understand how much it'll cost to restore a loco, pay for transport, fuel, parts, accomodation, etc... Thankfully the days of buying a loco then thinking a preserved railway will automatically offer you a home for free are over, and it's a hell of an undertaking for one individual to finance & work on such a restoration project on their own.

 

It might be fine for a classic car or small aircraft to be kept away in a shed as someone's folly, but a 133 ton loco will take up alot of space in someone's garden...

[Unknown Warrior]

I knew that when I suggested reviewing the future of some of the ex Barry locos there would be cries of anguish!

 

I picked on two specific classes, both well represented in preservation: Merchant Navy (11) and 28XX/2884 (16. Lets have a look how they are doing in preservation:

 

Merchant Navy: 2 opperational, 1 overhaul, 1 should steam this year for the first time in preservation, 3 some work done, 3 in scrap yard condition and 1 sectioned in the NRM.

 

28XX/2884: 4 opperational, 1 overhaul, 1 should steam this year for the first time in preservation, 5 some work done, 4 in scrap yard condition and 1 in the NRM.

 

I would guess that at least £10 million is needed to restore those locos that have not steamed in preservation plus the volunteer labour to do the work. Comments?!

 

What I find more worrying is that the following locos, which would be very useful on Heritage Lines, still have not steamed in preservation:

 

3 Ivatt Class 2 2-6-0's; 2 Ivatt Class 2 2-6-2T's (now on the IOW and being worked on); 1 Fowler 4F 0-6-0; 1 Fowler Jinty and 1 Hughes/Fowler Crab!

 

I hope that 34073 will be restored before too long. Considering how many Bullied light pacifics have survived in to preservation (20) most have steamed in preservation and are usefully employed on Heritage lines.

 

So there are two hurdles to saving these locos and making them at least presentable: Money and labour! We can all get involved even if it is only to put a few coins in donation jars/boxes. There is plenty of scope for active involvement either with restoration itself or in money raising: eg. helping on stands at galas etc..

 

Anyone in the Derby Area interested in locomotive restoration (steam and diesel), carriage restoration, permanent way work or any other of the many jobs involved in running a railway can be assured of a warm welcome at the Ecclesbourne Valley Railway based at Wirksworth, Derbyshire. We have a DMU Gala this weekend 20-21 March. I am rostered to drive on the narrow gauge on Sunday and the steam restoration team will also be on site.

 

One final thought: if anyone would like to take on an unrestored 28XX, there is one round the back of the shed at Llangollen, where it has been for a number of years and I believe that it up for sale!

 

NB. The information I have set out is correct to the best of my knowledge but does rely to a certain extent on published sources which may not be 100% accurate!

[Classsix T]

To return to the origins of this thread, as Mr. Dunn is commonly referred to as Freebies International (amongst other things) by some of my friends in the particular loco preservation group I belong to, and is believed to frequently eschew the most basic form of funding preservation (buying a train ticket) in favour of asking "Do you know who I am?", he is in absolutely no position to suggest what anyone does with their paid for property.

 

Further, what if owner of 34XXX "Wibble Bejang Shipping", a rusting hulk, actually pays rent to the railway to keep his loco there? Hmmm?

 

C6T.

[PhilH]

3 in scrap yard condition

 

One of which will be the next Merchant Navy charging around the mainlines of the UK in a couple of years time. Does that not prove some sort of (admittedly obscure) point?

[Baby Deltic]

I would say that 45015 is just as important as any boiler on wheels. It is the oldest of the class 45's in existance, and only one of the early examples left which originally had split headcode boxes and nose end gangway doors. I would like to see the loco restored cosmetically and offered to a museum. Obviously it probably won't run again, and is missing a few leaf springs on one of the wheelsets, but if the OP is suggesting that a loco be scrapped just because it is occupying space and will never run, perhaps a gas axe should be put to use on some of the static objects occupying space in the NRM.

[Ravenser]

I would say that 45015 is just as important as any boiler on wheels. It is the oldest of the class 45's in existance, and only one of the early examples left which originally had split headcode boxes and nose end gangway doors. I would like to see the loco restored cosmetically and offered to a museum. Obviously it probably won't run again, and is missing a few leaf springs on one of the wheelsets, but if the OP is suggesting that a loco be scrapped just because it is occupying space and will never run, perhaps a gas axe should be put to use on some of the static objects occupying space in the NRM.

 

Er, you're suggesting it's as valuable as Rocket and Hardwicke and you'd like to put a gas axe through Colombine and Queen Victoria's saloon????????

 

I'm not a great advocate of scrapping , but I do feel this is pushing it to extremes in defence of one severely delapidated duplicate Peak

 

And no, you can't cut the last EM1 (which will never run again because there's no 1500V line to run it on)

[Baby Deltic]

Er, you're suggesting it's as valuable as Rocket and Hardwicke and you'd like to put a gas axe through Colombine and Queen Victoria's saloon????????

 

I'm not a great advocate of scrapping , but I do feel this is pushing it to extremes in defence of one severely delapidated duplicate Peak

 

And no, you can't cut the last EM1 (which will never run again because there's no 1500V line to run it on)

 

No, I was using the NRM as a metaphor. To suggest that one loco is more important than another just because it is a steam loco from a class already well represented in preservation is just as ludicrous as suggesting the cutting of NRM exhibits. Yes, the peak is a duplicate, as is the Pacific, but unlike the pacific, the peak is the only example of its type remaining which was built with the first nose end arrangement.

[298]

I would say that 45015 is just as important as any boiler on wheels. It is the oldest of the class 45's in existance, and only one of the early examples left which originally had split headcode boxes and nose end gangway doors. I would like to see the loco restored cosmetically and offered to a museum. Obviously it probably won't run again, and is missing a few leaf springs on one of the wheelsets, but if the OP is suggesting that a loco be scrapped just because it is occupying space and will never run, perhaps a gas axe should be put to use on some of the static objects occupying space in the NRM.

 

Just a few questions:

 

1: Why is it's age so important..?

 

2: 45060 has split boxes, 45015 currently does not. I'm sure a restoration could include reinstating it's nose end doors and split headcodes, but in the grander scheme of things, those are trivial decisions.

 

3: Who is going to pay for the restoration...? The loco is supposed to be owned by a group, yet they don't even have a web presence. If I wanted to donate towards it's cause, how do I do so..?

 

4: Which museum would want it...?

[Baby Deltic]

Just a few questions:

 

1: Why is it's age so important..?

 

2: 45060 has split boxes, 45015 currently does not. I'm sure a restoration could include reinstating it's nose end doors and split headcodes, but in the grander scheme of things, those are trivial decisions.

 

3: Who is going to pay for the restoration...? The loco is supposed to be owned by a group, yet they don't even have a web presence. If I wanted to donate towards it's cause, how do I do so..?

 

4: Which museum would want it...?

 

I'm sure people asked similar questions when they were dragging wrecks out of Barry scrapyard.

[PhilH]

I'm sure people asked similar questions when they were dragging wrecks out of Barry scrapyard.

 

No - the world was a much simpler place then. You only knew that you didn't want to see them cut up. I even remember a standard tender being done up in someone's garden.

[298]

I'm sure people asked similar questions when they were dragging wrecks out of Barry scrapyard.

 

And the years since have shown that not every loco has been restored, famous preserved locos from the 70's & 80's have had their 10 years of life before sitting forlornely in the queue for overhaul, and the preservation world has realised the missing gaps can be filled with replica projects, even if this is at the expense of locos salvaged from Barry.

 

Suppose someone came up with a plan to build a replica Baby Deltic, using the restored engine and components from a few 20's and 37's in a new bodyshell. Apart from a few luddites uttering "Ewww, replica" or moaning because their hellfire tractor was scrapped in the process, surely such a loco would be worth a dozen basket cases...? What do you make of that, Baby Deltic...?

[coachmann]

Funny how short memories are. When the steam movement began in the late 1950s early 1960s it was to preserve something that was dissapearing.......Meandering country branchline and steam engines. It's all they, their parents, grandparents and so on had only known for around 130 years. Diesels had all-but taken over on BR and it was unthinkable that people would preserved diesels! Of course the years moved on and younger generations came along with their own ideas on what constitutes preservation. They demanded diesels, which is understandable when it's all they remember.

 

But batting against them are Mr.& Mrs. Joe Punter, who actually bring in the money. How often I've heard it said "we come for a ride behind a steam engine.......We can travel on a diesel anyday on BR". They can't of course but that sums up their knowledge of railways. It doesn't matter anyway. What does matter is the public continue to visit preservation sites and ride the trains. Enthusiasm without money can do nothing.

 

When the chips are down, hard-nosed decisions will favour healthy steam locos. They're the honey pot and scrap into cash will be the thing. I think we are already seeing this.

 

As for old wooden coaches "rotting in sidings", it is easy to join one of the coach groups and even if like me, your own body has seen better days, the annual membership fee and the odd donation will help a lot.

 

Larry

[Baby Deltic]

And the years since have shown that not every loco has been restored, famous preserved locos from the 70's & 80's have had their 10 years of life before sitting forlornely in the queue for overhaul, and the preservation world has realised the missing gaps can be filled with replica projects, even if this is at the expense of locos salvaged from Barry.

 

Suppose someone came up with a plan to build a replica Baby Deltic, using the restored engine and components from a few 20's and 37's in a new bodyshell. Apart from a few luddites uttering "Ewww, replica" or moaning because their hellfire tractor was scrapped in the process, surely such a loco would be worth a dozen basket cases...? What do you make of that, Baby Deltic...?

 

Its not my loco, its not my money and if it gets cut, it won't effect me in any way. I was merely pointing out the argument of what makes 45015 significant among other class 45's. I believe that the fact that 45015 was originally D14 and it had been built with gangway doors was one of the reasons such efforts were made to secure the 'hulk'. If someone wants to build a baby deltic, good luck to them. The engine is situated in the shell of 37372 anyway, so that's a head start.

[coachmann]

Apart from a few luddites uttering "Ewww, replica"

I wonder how many people realize that a good many of those treasured preserved steam locos are virtually replicas. Quite apart from natural maintainance and replacement that took place during a locos working life, those 'Barry' revivals are now't but original mainframes, boiler and wheels, the rest (boiler cladding, cab, pannier tanks, running plate plate etc) having been fabricated during restoration. I remember the shock of seeing City of Wells at Keighley before restoration. Then there is the autotrain fitted Pannier at Llangollen. Both marvelous restorations. You've got to hand it to those lads.

[Simon_R]

 

How often I've heard it said "we come for a ride behind a steam engine.......We can travel on a diesel anyday on BR". They can't of course but that sums up their knowledge of railways.

 

And in 50 years time when all 'BR' are using is Japanese built 200mph EMU's that all look the same and make virtually no noise how many people are going to get excited about the idea of seeing a huge rumbling beast beltching black smoke? Quite a few i would expect.