DN&SR Layout Potential. Thoughts?

[Guest nzflyer]

 So I’ve been doing some thinking…

 

I have ‘episodes’ at random times every few months where I go into full layout planning mode where ‘I say to hell with the lack of funds, time constraints and no space whatsoever for a railway of any size, shape or form, I want to see what I can come up with in my head’. Being an international modeller of British railways I’m limited by resources such as books, DVDs etc. and the range of models from which I can use. I found a reasonably cheap Hornby Terrier in BR Black and a T9 ‘Greyhound’ which are two locomotives I’ve always been in love with, as well as three coaches, a range of open wagons and vans, buildings, vehicles, figures, scenery items and a lot of other stuff. I then wanted to know if it would be possible to make a prototypical and historically accurate layout that is somehow unique, offers endless running opportunities, and there is always some interesting scene to look at.

 

I’m a fan of the GWR Modelling website and looked on there for some ideas. I wanted to run ex-GWR stock behind a Southern Region locomotive and I didn’t really fancy setting it in the southwest. I wanted to run a beautiful T9 through a leafy Oxford landscape. I found something close enough to it. I decided on the Didcot, Newbury & Southampton Railway, a forty-six-mile-long rural backwater railway that was dreamt up by a small railway company and eventually became a battleground in the Railway Wars between the Great Western Railway and the London and South Western Railway. The eventual resolution came that although the line was built by the DN&SR, the majority of it would be operated by the GWR. The line was split by the GWR in two. The Northern section stretched from Didcot to Newbury and the Southern section from Newbury to Winchester. Stock was exchanged at Winchester and the LSWR manned the railway from Winchester southwards. The line was also unique because of its architectural merits: many of the station buildings were double-storey red brick structures, many of which survive today and are instantly recognisable by railway buffs. There were sections of line that were proposed but never materialised: including loop lines and a few branch lines as well. Moreover, there has never been a more interesting location to model GWR/SR workings.

 

I would plan to model the line during its decline in the 1950s and early 1960s. I’m caught between modelling an actual station on the DN&SR route with passing loops and sidings, or a short branch servicing a quarry of some kind (I have no idea what sort of minerals were mined in the area, but I’m not really a big fan of coal trains). The line was worked then by Western Region ‘Collet Goods’ 0-6-0s and 4300 2-6-0s and by Southern Region Q1 0-6-0s, T9 4-4-0s and Standard 4 2-6-0s. Southern Region operations extended to Enborne Junction on 2nd April 1950, leaving only the Didcot to Newbury section to be operated by the Western Region. I plan for a railway extension south of Enborne where the Western Region still had running rights on one of the branch lines (my layout). 

 

But what about the Terrier, you ask? While the GWR often allocated its most ancient stock to the line, and I suppose an elderly tank engine should be no surprise. The Western Region had acquired two Terriers from the defunct Weston, Cleveland and Portishead railway in 1940 and put them to work on the Bristol Harbour lines before working at Taunton (later Newton Abbot). My engine of focus, WC&P No. 5 ‘Portishead’ (original number No. 43, ‘Gipshyhill’) was stored at Swindon in January 1950. It was later scrapped there, however in my fictional universe it would have been sent to work the DN&SR branch line extension in March 1950, a month before the Southern Region takeover. Its prominence would have been of interest to trainspotters to see it working away in the quarry, or taking the afternoon passenger service to one of the stations on the DN&SR. Perhaps I won’t build the branch line layout if I decide to model a through station on the DN&SR, and maybe just have the Terrier work in the yard behind a few empty wagons. The possibilities are making me dizzy.

 

What does everybody think of this?   Does it sound prototypically correct and feasible? I’m a stickler for accuracy but I also like questioning the ‘what if’. I’ll make a post on the prototype questions page about requesting photos of the line during the 1950s, as well as plans and photos of the buildings on the line and questions about stock such as which Greyhounds worked the line. Another post I might make may be dedicated to the Terrier. I just want to know everyone’s thoughts on the DN&SR and maybe get an official page going to discuss this magnificent little backwater railway that offers so much modelling potential.

 

Cheers.

Edited September 2, 2016 by nzflyer

[colin penfold]

The DNSR was authorised to build a branch to Kingsclere which I toyed with including before I decided on Burghclere, the Shawford (Hockley) viaduct and a what-might-have-been terminus in Southampton. You could use that as a justification for a small branch terminus.

 

The DNS is a great choice, good luck with it.

[Joseph_Pestell]

I agree with Colin that the DN&S is a great choice. Even the through stations were reasonably compact and the trains interesting but quite short.

[Zomboid]

The DNSR was authorised to build a branch to Kingsclere which I toyed with including before I decided on Burghclere, the Shawford (Hockley) viaduct and a what-might-have-been terminus in Southampton. You could use that as a justification for a small branch terminus.

 

The DNS is a great choice, good luck with it.

To have stood much chance of surviving beyond the 1930s that would have had to continue to Basingstoke, so could also justify a through station.

Though in my might-have-been universe that route was built by the LSWR...

[81A Oldoak]

I have often toyed with the idea of a model of Worthy Down station just north of Winchester. It was opened in 1918 to serve the new Royal Flying Corrps (later RAF) airbase. It was extensively modified and expanded during the Second World War as the route was upgraded to carry traffic for the D-Day invasion. I was stationed at Worthy Down during my last 18 months in the Army and used to run along part of the track-bed during my lunchtime physical exertions.

[1165Valour]

I've thought myself about what possibilities modelling the M&SWJR as an independent company (a la the S&DJR) in the 1920s-30s, or the DN&SR if it had remained an independent company and built the planned extension to Southampton.

 

Any ideas on what a DN&SR "house style" and livery would look like? I've always found the Hull & Barnsley style and black livery attractive, and I think black could provide a good contrast to GWR brunswick and LSWR sage green. Maybe an extra Stirling brother took a job on the DN&SR?

[Miss Prism]

Before thinking of adopting a Terrier for DN&S trains. I suggest you look at the gradient profile.

[Miss Prism]

23 hours ago, GWRSwindon said:

Any ideas on what a DN&SR "house style" and livery would look like?

 

It looked like the GWR. The DN&SR never had its own stock and locos.

 

[1165Valour]

47 minutes ago, Miss Prism said:

 

It looked like the GWR. The DN&SR never had its own stock and locos.

 

Thanks, I was speculating on what locos the DN&SR might have bought had they remained independent a la the S&DJR and M&SWJR.

[The Stationmaster]

On 01/04/2019 at 18:41, GWRSwindon said:

Thanks, I was speculating on what locos the DN&SR might have bought had they remained independent a la the S&DJR and M&SWJR.

For the sake of historical accuracy the DN&SR actually remained independent until the Grouping when it was absorbed into the GWR.    So it had 41 years of independence although the GWR worked it from the outset.  In fact its independent existence was a bit longer than the that of the M&SWJR although companies amalgamated to  form the M&SWJR predated the opening of the DN&SR.

[john new]

If going for the DN&S I would suggest Winchester Chesil. Reasons -

 

1) Against a hillside so prototypical options for a back-scene

2) LH end - tunnel (Assuming viewed from station approach side or reverse if you want the City/Cathedral as back drop)

3) RH - road overbridge

4) Main goods yard off stage to right.

5) There is a good book on the line available.

 

If you want to run small locomotives, such as the Terrier, invent a short branch line (perhaps a private siding to serve the College). Goods supplies in out and start/end of term passenger trip workings. Ideal for a roundy roundy or fiddle to fiddle option.

Edited April 4, 2019 by john new
Grammar and punctuation corrections.

[colin penfold]

On 02/09/2016 at 16:58, Zomboid said:

To have stood much chance of surviving beyond the 1930s that would have had to continue to Basingstoke, so could also justify a through station.

Though in my might-have-been universe that route was built by the LSWR...

 

Somehow missed this originally but the intention was to carry on to join the GW main line somewhere near Aldermaston (Midgham) to create a cutoff route towards London. There would have been little benefit to the DNS to double back from Kingsclere towards Basingstoke.

[IWCR]

There was an extensive Military railway coming of the DN&S near Winchester in WW1 running some miles into the countryside, you could stretch facts and assume this remained into WW2 and beyond. Several Terriers were requisitioned for military service at the time and even found use as far afield as Scotland.

 

Pete

[Zomboid]

26 minutes ago, colin penfold said:

 

Somehow missed this originally but the intention was to carry on to join the GW main line somewhere near Aldermaston (Midgham) to create a cutoff route towards London. There would have been little benefit to the DNS to double back from Kingsclere towards Basingstoke.

I would have thought that a Basingstoke to Newbury line via Kingsclere might have been viable (possibly even the major route instead of the GWR via Reading). But clearly not if it connected to the DNS and headed south.

 

I'm just imagining what-ifs, but I don't think Kingsclere as a BLT from the DNS would have lasted very long.

[john new]

40 minutes ago, IWCR said:

There was an extensive Military railway coming of the DN&S near Winchester in WW1 running some miles into the countryside, you could stretch facts and assume this remained into WW2 and beyond. Several Terriers were requisitioned for military service at the time and even found use as far afield as Scotland.

 

Pete

Interesting. Is there a website with info"?

[The Stationmaster]

One potential problem with the DN&S (unless artistic licence is liberally applied) is the distinct lack of trains.  Although things changed a bit over the years the passenger service was extremely sparse so for example the Winter 1952 timetable showed only three trains through from Didcot to Southampton on weekdays with two additional trains both north and south of Newbury.    Pre war, taking the Summer 1938 service as the example, GWR engines had worked through to Southampton daily on two trains plus through to Eastleigh on a third and while I don't have details I would doubt things would be little different in at least the early BR period.

 

Apart from a vague memory of trains standing in the Newbury bay at Didcot the only trains I saw running on the line were the Fawley oil trains in its final years and a day of enforced train spotting at Churn (while at the range for shooting) was far from profitable, I think the most I ever saw was 2, or possibly 3, trains in about 5 hours.

[colin penfold]

Having said that, there is plenty of interest in the variety of freight and motive power used as the attached index to published photos I have built up will show. Apologies that I have included references to Southampton area traffic as it is for my use including my "what might have been" Southampton DNS station.

 

A sequence from 1946 to 1962 with the various permutations of passenger services (GW and SR at different times) interspersed with through freights and pick up goods would make a very interesting operating session and could eliminate the massive gaps between trains!

 

As Mike says, the use of modeller's licence can bring dividends. One of my key "stretches" is that I am prepared to run any train which might have run on the Reading - Basingstoke line down the DNS instead. That would include, for example York-Bournemouth inter-regionals and a greater variety of freight. Another stretch would be to allow some of the traffic which only appeared on the northern section of the DNS to sneak south, for example it was comparatively rare for Panniers to work freight south of Newbury and the DMUs were found to be underpowered for the southern section. My other complete flight of fancy was due to the beautiful SECR C class and birdcages from Bachmann and then Hornby's H class. In my world the shedmaster at Eastleigh, consumed with jealousy at the popularity of City of Truro on the DNS services managed to get the two locos and a set of birdcages out of service and restore them for use on the DNS!

DNS References.xlsx

[Joseph_Pestell]

1 hour ago, Zomboid said:

I would have thought that a Basingstoke to Newbury line via Kingsclere might have been viable (possibly even the major route instead of the GWR via Reading). But clearly not if it connected to the DNS and headed south.

 

I'm just imagining what-ifs, but I don't think Kingsclere as a BLT from the DNS would have lasted very long.

 

Despite having lived in Newbury for a few years, I have never given any thought to a Newbury - Basingstoke branch via Kingsclere. Sounds like a very good "might have been" whether for the DNS/GW or the LSW.

[Covkid]

I think the OP mentioned the preference of the decline of the line in the 1950s and early 1960s.  Sounds great and this is not a criticism - how many terriers ere left operating on mainlines in 1960 ?

 

I think the OP's idea s sound, but the terrier would be relegated to industrial or military use and replaced by maybe a H

Hall or a BR std class 4.

 

A modeller Julia Adams aka "Missy" has been working (to a very high standard) on the DNS in 2mm finescale.  Her project is "Highclere"

 

   

[Compound2632]

On 04/04/2019 at 09:00, john new said:

If going for the DN&S I would suggest Winchester Chesil. Reasons -

 

1) Against a hillside so prototypical options for a back-scene

2) LH end - tunnel (Assuming viewed from station approach side or reverse if you want the City/Cathedral as back drop)

3) RH - road overbridge

4) Main goods yard off stage to right.

5) There is a good book on the line available.

 

If you want to run small locomotives, such as the Terrier, invent a short branch line (perhaps a private siding to serve the College). Goods supplies in out and start/end of term passenger trip workings. Ideal for a roundy roundy or fiddle to fiddle option.

 

Winchester Chesil was he subject of a rather splendid exhibition layout some years ago.

 

The big difference between the DN&SR and the S&DJR or M&SWJR was that it was a Great Western assault on the L&SWR's South Coast territory; definitely not in the L&SWR's interests. The other two lines were (or became) proteges of the Midland for traffic from the north to the L&SWR independently of the Great Western. 

[The Stationmaster]

One interesting train in the 1938 Summer timetable id s the 07.32 from Southampton which called at all stations from Southampton to Didcot (arrive 10.06) running under a B headcode but which in fact ran through to Glasgow via the GC line and goodness only knows where further north but definitely via the LNER.  There was no immediately obvious train in the opposite direction so i presume the stock probably worked down on the afternoon Oxford - Southampton through train.  Incidentally in those days the morning train from Didcot to Southampton was authorised to run as a Mixed Train between Didcot and Winchrester Chesil.

 

The histry of the cuts and thrusts into each other's territory by the GWR and L&SWR  was quite complex and on various occasions finally led to 'pacts' which involved various trade-offs as 'good faith'.  The first trade off involved the GWR ceding to the L&SWR its interest in, and what amounted to patronage of, 'Castlemain's Corkscrew' - the Southampton and Dorchester Railway (the GWr f got other things in return.  The DN&SR was also involved in a trade-off when following the decision not to extend to Southampton the section between Winchester Chesil and Shawford Jcn was handed over to the L&SWR to maintain and effectively own in exchange for DN&SR access to Southampton Terminus over the L&SWR (although it seems fairly certain there was never any formal grant of running powers.

 

Thus the line south of Chesil was basically worked as part of the L&SWR/SR and it ran its own freight trains to/from Chesil

[Joseph_Pestell]

1 hour ago, Compound2632 said:

 

Winchester Chesil was he subject of a rather splendid exhibition layout some years ago.

 

The big difference between the DN&SR and the S&DJR or M&SWJR was that it was a Great Western assault on the L&SWR's South Coast territory; definitely not in the L&SWR's interests. The other two lines were (or became) proteges of the Midland for traffic from the north to the L&SWR independently of the Great Western. 

 

About 35 years ago, by a group of P4 modellers in Southampton.

 

A superb, detailed model but not terribly good for exhibition purposes as one needed to be 6' plus in height to view it.

[IWCR]

Regarding the Military Railway:

http://www.alresford.org/displayed/displayed_21_1.php

Its route is shown on the Rail Map online Webste;

http://www.railmaponline.com/UKIEMap.php

 

Pete

[john new]

1 hour ago, IWCR said:

Regarding the Military Railway:

http://www.alresford.org/displayed/displayed_21_1.php

Its route is shown on the Rail Map online Webste;

http://www.railmaponline.com/UKIEMap.php

 

Pete

Thanks for the links. Despite growing up only 3 miles away from it that wasn't a branch line I'd ever been made aware of.

[petethemole]

The Winchester Chesil layout still exists and is on display at the 'Milestones' museum in Basingstoke, in a mock-up of the station. It is supposed to be operating automatically but wasn't when I visited last September.

An excellent museum of Hampshire life and transport with some railway interest and a fine collection of Hampshire-built steam and motor vehicles, plus it has its own real ale pub.