Heljan Churchward Mogul in 7mm scale

[GWR57xx]

Next I took the tender apart.

 

There is one small screw (A) for the coupling bar (which has three holes for different loco/tender spacing depending on the severity of your curves).

 

There are three screws (B) to remove the tender body, all different! Looks like Heljan were using whatever came to hand. This must surely make production & assembly more time consuming?

 

 

This is the decoder mounting plate (for Lokpilot/Loksound V4/5 L) with dummy DC board in place:

 

 

Plenty of room beside the decoder for a speaker.

 

I've ordered a Loksound 5L and speaker, now just have to wait.

But in the meantime I can run it in a bit more on DC.

 

[7007GreatWestern]

5 hours ago, GWR57xx said:

This is the motor in its mount with the brackets removed, showing the raised rims at each end:

 

 

 

 

These are the arched brackets that are meant to hold the motor securely:

 

Not sure if you can tell from the photo but the arched portion is only half the width of the bracket, so if it is fitted the wrong way round (as mine was) the motor is able to lift and disengage from the worm drive gear (as mine did). 

 

Imagine the people assembling these locos on the production line. There is nothing to prevent them fitting these brackets the wrong way round so unless they are paying attention they have a 50% chance of getting it wrong. I don't suppose they are given much time to complete the job, so Heljan must be getting a serious proportion of failures due to a silly design of bracket. It would have been a miniscule cost to make the arch full width so that the orientation made no difference...

 

Once the body was removed it was a simple fix.

Brackets back on the right way round and wires taped up ready for refitting the body:

 

The engine now runs beautifully on the rolling road and short test track. 

 

 

Outstanding work 57xx! That's possibly going to help a lot of us. I'll certainly feel more confident dismantling and working inside the 43xx should it be necessary. Thanks so much!!.

[GWR57xx]

The dodgiest part of the disassembly was separating the cab from the boiler moulding.

There are three lugs, circled here:

 

The instructions I downloaded from Tower Models' website just say to slide the cab backwards, but I found that these lugs have quite a good grip holding the two parts together. Just pulling them apart resulted in visible stress marks to the lugs, so I wouldn't want to do that too often.

I'd suggest trying to partially disengage the lugs using a small flat-bladed screwdriver from inside the cab before trying to slide the cab backwards if you can - it may help. [edit: the lugs can’t be accessed like that, as I just found out while taking it apart again. What worked better was freeing each side lug one at a time followed by the top lug. Much better than just pulling the cab straight backwards which does all three lugs at once].

 

I'd also suggest doing this over a tray to catch any bits that fall off! (e.g.handrails, whistle pipes, reversing rod etc).

Before sliding the boiler forwards free the delicate wires (they're taped down) and lift the cast engine mount up slightly to disengage it from the chassis, then tilt it up slightly at the front. 

Take it slow.

Best wishes 

 

Edited December 27, 2020 by GWR57xx
correction

[7007GreatWestern]

44 minutes ago, GWR57xx said:

The dodgiest part of the disassembly was separating the cab from the boiler moulding.

There are three lugs, circled here:

 

The instructions I downloaded from Tower Models' website just say to slide the cab backwards, but I found that these lugs have quite a good grip holding the two parts together. Just pulling them apart resulted in visible stress marks to the lugs, so I wouldn't want to do that too often.

I'd suggest trying to partially disengage the lugs using a small flat-bladed screwdriver from inside the cab before trying to slide the cab backwards if you can - it may help.

I'd also suggest doing this over a tray to catch any bits that fall off! (e.g.handrails, whistle pipes, reversing rod etc).

Before sliding the boiler forwards free the delicate wires (they're taped down) and lift the cast engine mount up slightly to disengage it from the chassis, then tilt it up slightly at the front. 

Take it slow.

Best wishes 

 

This is RMWeb at its very best - someone actually sharing real hard-won experience to make life a bit easier for others. Take a bow 57xx! You're a star!! (no pun intended). Andy.

[GWR57xx]

I’ve learned so much from others on here so just trying to help where I can 

[Hal Nail]

Ideally I would pop the smoke box door off but having read the above, would rather do so without taking the body apart to push from behind.

 

Has anyone tried? Is it firmly glued on?

[GWR57xx]

This is just by way of a pipecleaner for me - my first video upload to RMWeb and YouTube, so just finding my way.

This shows the 43xx running on DC - silent movie!

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TDJQ9q3DfB0

 

[GWR57xx]

I don't seem to be able to embed the video.

Do I need to convert it from mp4 to a different format before uploading to YouTube?

[GWR57xx]

On 14/12/2020 at 23:15, Hal Nail said:

Ideally I would pop the smoke box door off but having read the above, would rather do so without taking the body apart to push from behind.

 

Has anyone tried? Is it firmly glued on?

 

I haven't tried, but not sure how that would help even if it did pop off?

[Hal Nail]

32 minutes ago, GWR57xx said:

 

I haven't tried, but not sure how that would help even if it did pop off?

 

I want to get the door off. If I took the body off I'd simply push the door out from behind.

 

I'm asking if it's easy to lever the door off without access from behind.

 

 

[GWR57xx]

The speaker cavity in the loco definitely has wires into it:

 

The black 'tape' on the wires is a bit of heat shrink tubing, but hasn't been shrunk on so just pulls off to reveal about 3mm of stripped ends.

 

I decided to order the Loksound 5L from Digitrains in the end, simply because they responded to my request for more information unlike DC Kits and Roads & Rails.

 

Digitrains recommended the "Boom Box" speaker for mounting in the tender, but I thought having the speaker in the loco might sound better so thought I'd give it a try. So I ordered the ESU 50341 speaker too. The Loksound 5L has two sets of speaker connections, so I'll probably end up fitting both anyway.

 

I measured the depth of the loco cavity and made up the 10mm deep * 23mm diameter version:

 

I realise now that I should have put a coin of the realm in the shot for scale, but for comparison a 10p piece is 24mm diameter. This seems tiny, will be interested to find out how much noise it makes .

 

Ready for soldering:

 

I couldn't work out how to removed the brake rigging from the loco (there were no instructions provided), so worked carefully around it.

I also filed a slight flat on one edge of the speaker enclosure to allow the wires better access up from the base of the cavity.

 

Fitted:

 

Next step will be replacing the DC blanking plate with the Loksound 5L and doing a sound test .

 

There are a lot of very fine, delicate details on this engine and despite my most careful handling I notice that one of the cylinder drain cocks is missing in action.

[GWR57xx]

20 minutes ago, Hal Nail said:

 

I want to get the door off. If I took the body off I'd simply push the door out from behind.

 

I'm asking if it's easy to lever the door off without access from behind.

 

 

 

The parts list shows it as a separate item, not an integral part of the boiler moulding.

I would assume it would come off, but I haven't tried 

 

[Adrian Stevenson]

Looking forward to your sound test.

 

Cheers, Ade.

[GWR57xx]

2 hours ago, Adrian Stevenson said:

Looking forward to your sound test.

 

Cheers, Ade.

 

Me too - first trying to figure out why my video didn't embed before I do any more...

 

[GWR57xx]

Installing the LokSound 5L was simply a case of unplugging the DC plate and plugging the LS5 in its place:

 

 

What took the most time was reading the 100's of CVs into DecoderPro .

 

Also finally hitched up the ponies so now she's looking much better.

 

Yesterday was my first attempt at uploading a video to YouTube for embedding here, and I've never used video editing software before. I tried using Microsoft Photos and was very underwhelmed. I've downloaded Microsoft Movie Maker 10 for next time, hopefully that is better.

 

This is straight out of the box - I haven't altered any CVs yet.

 

I think the video includes examples of all the sounds, some of which play at random at what seem like logical moments to me. I also got a bit confused when playing the video back about which sound was which, because some sounds only play when moving, some only when stationary, some only when starting and some only when stopping - again all seems very logical. I just need a bit of driving practice!

 

Enjoy!:

 

Obviously the chuff rate needs some attention. The decoder comes with a hefty manual. In German. Fortunately the English language manuals are downloadable from ESU's website. Lots of reading to do to figure out how to tune the chuff rate. This appears to be a mighty complicated device .

[dpgibbons]

A tutorial on Loksound chuff tuning is here

[GWR57xx]

9 hours ago, dpgibbons said:

A tutorial on Loksound chuff tuning is here

Thanks for the link. That looks really useful and easy to follow. I’ll give it a go when I get a chance.

 

[GWR57xx]

I’ve spent quite a bit of time over the last few days trying to get 4339 to behave how I want, without much success.

I ran the Loksound 5 auto-tune function as linked to above, and the loco runs quite well at medium to high speeds but at crawling pace it has a definite judder and the motor has a distinct hum.

I read the ESU manual about fine tuning the CVs for slow running, but made it worse.

It ran better with the default settings for the bemf CVs before the auto-tune.

Also the motion appears to stick at a certain part of each revolution, but I couldn’t see any interference between the parts of the motion and wheels.

I finally gave up trying to fix it by changing CVs and took the body off again to examine the motor and motion.

(BTW the lugs holding the cab to the firebox are not accessible from within the cab so I will edit my earlier post to clarify).

With the motor disengaged from the gearbox I gently pushed the loco up and down a piece of track and the motion was absolutely fine, very free running, no binding anywhere.

With the motor still disengaged and back on the rolling road I ran the motor at speed step 1 and then accelerated up to full speed. It was virtually silent (I had to check that it was actually turning!).

Next I examined the gears with a magnifying glass and think I found the problem. The nylon gear that engages with the metal gear on the motor shaft has a damaged tooth. This may well have been caused by the incorrectly mounted motor from the factory (see earlier post on this thread).

I’ll order a new gear from Gaugemaster and try again.

Can anyone recommend any motor tuning CV settings for this engine using a Loksound 5L please? This is the first time I’ve tried to do this, and it hasn’t gone well so far.

Thanks,

Peter

[GWR57xx]

Just to illustrate my previous post, here is a shot of the damaged gear tooth:

 

I hope someone is finding this stuff to be of interest.

Apologies for boring everyone else with my problems... 

[norman]

If that damage has been caused by the worm not meshing correctly it could be a problem on others.  Occasionally my Heljan mogul makes a distinctly grating noise which I don't like. The plastic gear shown above is straight cut with the teeth square on but should  the teeth should be on the skew and at the same angle as the worm.  As it is, it's impossible to mesh correctly so the worm only partially aligns with the gear teeth.

 

[GWR57xx]

I removed the bit of gear that was hanging off, then did some short videos.

 

First shows the wheels and motion turning freely, no binding, when gently pushed by hand:

 

The gearing is such that the white nylon gear turns one revolution for every one revolution of the wheels and motion, hence my early assumption that it was the motion binding, not the transmission.

 

Second shows the damaged nylon gear:

 

Third is the motor running at speed step 1 (of 128):

 

Fourth is the motor accelerating up to top speed (step 128 of 128):

 

Lastly, the motor coasting to a halt:

 

The camera was recording sound, and as you can hear the motor is virtually silent with no load. It is also well balanced and totally free of vibration.

 

[Hal Nail]

16 hours ago, GWR57xx said:

 

I’ll order a new gear from Gaugemaster and try again.

 

Let us know how you get on. I tried to get some Mogul spares before xmas and they told me they aren't selling parts until they have got them all listed and then you will be able to order online.

Edited December 27, 2020 by Hal Nail

[Stringfingerling]

1 hour ago, Hal Nail said:

Let us know how you get on. I tried to get some Mogul spares before xmas and they told me they aren't selling parts until they have got them all listed and you can order online now.

 

I've had a bit of a struggle getting mine running properly in the last week since it arrived, partly because I didn't appreciate that I shouldn't be using the Momentum control on my NCE Powercab.   There are one or two threads on here explaining this.
To begin with, when I was testing on DC it locked solid straight away and it was easy to see that this was due to mechanical binding between the crosshead and (I think) the crankpin.  I tweaked the slide bars very slightly, as they appeared to be angled in a little bit and I think I've fixed that.  
I've climbed a major learning curve with my Powercab and CV's etc.  After using CV8 to reset the defaults  I think it's generally running very nicely, though I did lower CV54 to a value of 20 which, (I think) has made slow running smoother and I fiddled with the chuff speed to achieve four per wheel revolution.  
The issue I'm having now is (I think) due to sensitivity to dirty track, there are occasional stutters or jerks on pointwork.  It's worth me mentioning it because my other locos, which are all smallish tank engines don't do that.  I'm going to research whether people have successfully added pickups to the loco to improve this aspect.

[GWR57xx]

1 hour ago, Stringfingerling said:

The issue I'm having now is (I think) due to sensitivity to dirty track, there are occasional stutters or jerks on pointwork.  It's worth me mentioning it because my other locos, which are all smallish tank engines don't do that.  I'm going to research whether people have successfully added pickups to the loco to improve this aspect.

 

Hi @Stringfingerling, I've been following your trials on the other threads.

I don't think pickups is your problem - you said you had a Loksound 5L, which has built-in stay-alives.

Also the wheelbase of the tender is pretty much the same as that of this loco's drivers and any small tank engine.

Nice to know you found your main issue though - the Powercab momentum button.

Could the pointwork issue be back-to-backs or something else?

Cheers,

Peter

Edited December 27, 2020 by GWR57xx

[Stringfingerling]

24 minutes ago, GWR57xx said:

 

Hi @Stringfingerling, I've been following your trials on the other threads.

I don't think pickups is your problem - you said you had a Loksound 5L, which has built-in stay-alives.

Also the wheelbase of the tender is pretty much the same as that of this loco's drivers and any small tank engine.

Nice to know you found your main issue though - the Powercab momentum button.

Could the pointwork issue be back-to-backs or something else?

Cheers,

Peter

Hi Peter, 
You may be right - it's certainly true about the wheelbase of the tender. 
I don't think it's a back to back problem.  Most of the time the loco will run smoothly through the pointwork. When I first got the Mogul the pony track was under gauge and would hop slightly through the check rails, but a quick adjustment fixed that.  There is one very tight curve into my bay platform and the Mogul can manage it with a bit of a squeeze and I won't grumble about it not being completely smooth there, as it won't normally use the bay.   The rest of the pointwork seems to be no problem.
The reason I thought it might be to do with pickups is that I've noticed locos having different sensitivity to track dirt in the past.  I have a Tower Brass 14xx which is now about 11years old.  It literally never stalls.  The mechanism is a tad noisy but it's completely reliable.  My Dapol 14xx is beautifully quiet and smooth but does occasionally stall when crawling.  Naturally both  locos have identical wheelbases, though they are suspended differently and the pickup arrangements are different.  I wondered it was a question of some motors being able to keep going with a weaker current/higher resistance in the circuit to track?  I'm not expert enough to know the answer to that. 
The Mogul doesn't stall but it will occasionally jerk forwards while crossing pointwork at a crawl.  I'm guessing that when that happens the load compensation is noticing a sudden drop in Back EMF and compensates drastically until the BEMF is restored.  I'm not sure what influence the stay alive capacitor has.   I know track should be kept clean, but in the real world, I doubt if anyone cleans their track every time they want to run a train. 
It's not a major problem as the Mogul does run well now, but I have got used to my two Tower Brass locos - the other one being a 4575 which is smooth, powerful and also never stalls.
Thinking back to when I had decoders fitted to my Tower Brass locos, five years ago, I had various teething problems to sort out, including, neither loco working at all when they were first posted back to me from the shop that fitted the decoders.    It's been a bit of a thorny path into DCC land but when it works properly, it is very satisfying!
Cheers and thanks for your interest.
Rob

Edited December 27, 2020 by Stringfingerling
Omission of information