Current Hornby MK2 e underscale?

[Revolution Mike B]

Is it just me or has anyone else noticed that the current MK2 e not high enough? It almost looks HO scale compared to my Bachmann 37s. Both should be 12' 9" but I'd say it's more around 12'.

 

Pretty poor really.

[Derekstuart]

Are you sure this is not a case of the Bachmann 37 being too tall? I always thought the B 37 looked wrong- too much gap under the solebar.

[Revolution Mike B]

Are you sure this is not a case of the Bachmann 37 being too tall? I always thought the B 37 looked wrong- too much gap under the solebar.

 

They're lower than everything else I've got too Derek

[Revolution Mike B]

[Scottish Modeller]

MK2e.jpg

Hi there,

 

Check the wheelsize that Hornby have used.

 

I think they used a smaller wheel to avoid clearance problems on tight radius curves.

 

Thanks

[stovepipe]

The Mk2e was measured at 49.5 mm from rail to top of roof when first released, which scales exactly to 3.772m of the full size ones. MkIII coaches are slightly taller at 3.810m to the top of the corrugations, which is 50mm. I'd suspect the MkIII in your picture - its's the older model after all. Newer Bacchy class 37s are about 51mm high, so there should be a noticeable difference.

[Derekstuart]

If you life the MK2 up as Phil suggests, so that the buffers align then the height is about the same.

 

As Stovepipe writes, there's about 1 1/2 inch difference in height on the real ones but that's not really going to show up in model form. Possibly (and I am guessing) that might be to the top of the air vent on the roof which, from memory does stick up a good couple of inches.

[Revolution Mike B]

The wheels look to be the same size as my MK3 ones so that's a no go.

 

My main concern is that is lower than everything else I have, and noticeably lower too. There's 3mm difference between the MK3 and 4mm difference between the 37's and a 66, and a 57 so not sure what's going on there.

[stovepipe]

Looking at the diagram books the max height of a 37 scales at 51.5mm, but the 2011 model I have in front of me is 53mm high, not including the fan grille. The main range Mk2e I have measures 49.5mm, a 3.5mm difference. The 37 buffer height is actually 15.5mm, but should be less than 14mm. The Mk2e certainly has its deficiencies, but I don't think height is one of the them.

 

This picture shows something of the relationship between 37 and an a/c Mk2 (yes I know its a Mk2f).

 

Anglia Mk2 revisiting old territory by dbidwell78, on Flickr

[Hroth]

Looking at the diagram books the max height of a 37 scales at 51.5mm, but the 2011 model I have in front of me is 53mm high, not including the fan grille. The main range Mk2e I have measures 49.5mm, a 3.5mm difference. The 37 buffer height is actually 15.5mm, but should be less than 14mm. The Mk2e certainly has its deficiencies, but I don't think height is one of the them.

 

This picture shows something of the relationship between 37 and an a/c Mk2 (yes I know its a Mk2f).

 

Anglia Mk2 revisiting old territory by dbidwell78, on Flickr

Yes I know the picture exhibits telephoto compression, but The Real Thing looks more like a Triang R20, and 37611 looks like it got dropped on its nose!

 

Hat, coat, offski!!!

[Derekstuart]

Forgive my ignorance, but what sub-class of MK2 is that on the left? The one with the awful red and grey with white stripe livery.

 

It looks superficially the same, but with slight differences. Is it a different version or just different fixtures and fittings?

Edited September 6, 2016 by Derekstuart

[Revolution Mike B]

It looks like another MK2f Derek

[Dave47549]

.

Edited October 4, 2021 by Dave47549
Removed pointless guff

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

Are you sure this is not a case of the Bachmann 37 being too tall? I always thought the B 37 looked wrong- too much gap under the solebar.

Looking at the diagram books the max height of a 37 scales at 51.5mm, but the 2011 model I have in front of me is 53mm high, not including the fan grille... The 37 buffer height is actually 15.5mm, but should be less than 14mm...

 Surely this has been discussed before. Ah, but on the earlier now archived edition. http://www.rmweb.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=1031

 

Bachmann's principal chosen compromise on bogie diesel models which have wheel tops inside bodywork, which would foul on set track curves; is to make wheel diameter and the body work to scale, and then raise the body work slightly relative to the bogies to ensure the wheeltops will not foul. This is necessary to ensure that any purchaser can run the model on set track with no risk of the wheeltops machining their way through the bottom of the body side

 

The extra height required is typically around the 1.5mm that 'stovepipe's' measurements imply, and results in the oversize gap between solebar and bogie top that 'Derekstuart' identifies. Now, the good news. The way that the bogies carry the body lends itself to a simple DIY modification by which the body is lowered relative to the bogies for improved ang potentially correct appearance. The modeller who chooses to do this must determine just what minimum curvature is required to avoid problems. On the class 55 a 30" minimum radius is safe, with 'the gap' at scale, resulting in buffer height and overall height being correct, and a much improved appearance altogether.

 

The alternative compromises to prevent wheels inside bodywork fouling when on set track curves have been offered to the OO RTR market. Hornby - class 50 for example - diddy little wheels, well underscale. Heljan's DP2, distort the bodywork at the ends with resulting incorrect appearance. Of these three compromises, I'll take Bachmann's any day of the week, for the easy - and reversible - DIY correction.

[Derekstuart]

Four years to the day and someone had to go and open this thread again... Me...

 

There's plenty of discussion about the Hornby MK2'e' (elsewhere described as 'f') and the Bachmann offering. But most seem to be about the colour or whether a stripe has been applied correctly.

 

It seems to me that the 're-tooled' MK2e/f from Hornby is of poorer quality than the Airfix offering of over 40 years ago (is it new or just 're-engineered'?) and I can see what people have been talking about with visible solebars.. is that a fundamental design problem or isolated? I know this has been talked about elsewhere, but the contributors to this thread seem to have more, ahem, scientific view than some of the other threads I've read.

 

Derek

PS I'm specifically looking at the BSO, which is destined for a PHD conversion to a Scotrail DBSO. The Airfix/Dapol/Hornby one has been done plenty of times before- though I'm not sure about the Bachmann BSO or "new" Hornby BSO.

[adb968008]

4 hours ago, Derekstuart said:

Four years to the day and someone had to go and open this thread again... Me...

 

There's plenty of discussion about the Hornby MK2'e' (elsewhere described as 'f') and the Bachmann offering. But most seem to be about the colour or whether a stripe has been applied correctly.

 

It seems to me that the 're-tooled' MK2e/f from Hornby is of poorer quality than the Airfix offering of over 40 years ago (is it new or just 're-engineered'?) and I can see what people have been talking about with visible solebars.. is that a fundamental design problem or isolated? I know this has been talked about elsewhere, but the contributors to this thread seem to have more, ahem, scientific view than some of the other threads I've read.

 

Derek

PS I'm specifically looking at the BSO, which is destined for a PHD conversion to a Scotrail DBSO. The Airfix/Dapol/Hornby one has been done plenty of times before- though I'm not sure about the Bachmann BSO or "new" Hornby BSO.

Bachmann have made the Scotrail DBSO, in Blue/Grey and Scotrail.

 

39-725 blue/grey

39-726 Scotrail

[Derekstuart]

2 hours ago, adb968008 said:

Bachmann have made the Scotrail DBSO, in Blue/Grey and Scotrail.

 

39-725 blue/grey

39-726 Scotrail

 

I though before I write "there's not much chance of finding any in stock" I should have another quick check. I have found one on Ebay for £165, which I think is a little expensive; I'm no stranger to the idea of supply and demand, but gross profiteering? There are a couple of others from 'retailers' with no address and 'phone number.

 

Even though I've been away from this for a few years I did think about buying one when they were available as I knew I'd be back one day.

 

Anyway, where's the fun in opening a box when you can curse and swear at your 10 thumbs and lack of talent? Or is that just me?

[adb968008]

6 hours ago, Derekstuart said:

 

I though before I write "there's not much chance of finding any in stock" I should have another quick check. I have found one on Ebay for £165, which I think is a little expensive; I'm no stranger to the idea of supply and demand, but gross profiteering? There are a couple of others from 'retailers' with no address and 'phone number.

 

Even though I've been away from this for a few years I did think about buying one when they were available as I knew I'd be back one day.

 

Anyway, where's the fun in opening a box when you can curse and swear at your 10 thumbs and lack of talent? Or is that just me?

That price will only last until they make them again.

[JSpencer]

18 hours ago, Derekstuart said:

Four years to the day and someone had to go and open this thread again... Me...

 

There's plenty of discussion about the Hornby MK2'e' (elsewhere described as 'f') and the Bachmann offering. But most seem to be about the colour or whether a stripe has been applied correctly.

 

It seems to me that the 're-tooled' MK2e/f from Hornby is of poorer quality than the Airfix offering of over 40 years ago (is it new or just 're-engineered'?) and I can see what people have been talking about with visible solebars.. is that a fundamental design problem or isolated? I know this has been talked about elsewhere, but the contributors to this thread seem to have more, ahem, scientific view than some of the other threads I've read.

 

Derek

PS I'm specifically looking at the BSO, which is destined for a PHD conversion to a Scotrail DBSO. The Airfix/Dapol/Hornby one has been done plenty of times before- though I'm not sure about the Bachmann BSO or "new" Hornby BSO.

 

The Hornby Mk2e came out a couple of years before the Bachmann Mk2f. Then within 6 months of the Bachmann Mk2f coming out, Hornby announced that they were going to do a Mk2f too with not as many separately fitted detail parts nor the high tech spec of Bachmann's.

 

The Hornby Mk2e and Mk2f are entirely different toolings sharing nothing between them (well, not sure on the bogies).

[Derekstuart]

6 hours ago, adb968008 said:

That price will only last until they make them again.

I wouldn't be surprised to find them doing another run, given how well these sold. However, as a fairly niche unit there's no guarantee. Whilst re-releasing existing models is cheaper and faster for them than releasing new ones, it's still not a short timescale by Bachmann standards. It could quite easily be five or more years. I'd likely still buy one or two when/ if they are re-released.

 

2 hours ago, JSpencer said:

 

The Hornby Mk2e came out a couple of years before the Bachmann Mk2f. Then within 6 months of the Bachmann Mk2f coming out, Hornby announced that they were going to do a Mk2f too with not as many separately fitted detail parts nor the high tech spec of Bachmann's.

 

The Hornby Mk2e and Mk2f are entirely different toolings sharing nothing between them (well, not sure on the bogies).

Thanks John. From the pictures I've looked at, I can't see the difference between 2e and 2f (in the model sense that is, I know the real ones are different) save for what looks like the 2e using a recycled Airfix 2d underframe.

 

I've just bought a Hornby J36 and I've found it fairly accurate and detailed when compared to NERA drawings. The same is true of the B1/K1 (no I can never remember which) that I bought a few years back. However, when it comes to diesel, electric and 'modern' coaching stock, they seem to have it AAF. Still, at £20 for a 2f BSO (Hornby) it will be a good practice session without the risk of wrecking a more expensive Bachmann version.

[JSpencer]

16 minutes ago, Derekstuart said:

I wouldn't be surprised to find them doing another run, given how well these sold. However, as a fairly niche unit there's no guarantee. Whilst re-releasing existing models is cheaper and faster for them than releasing new ones, it's still not a short timescale by Bachmann standards. It could quite easily be five or more years. I'd likely still buy one or two when/ if they are re-released.

 

Thanks John. From the pictures I've looked at, I can't see the difference between 2e and 2f (in the model sense that is, I know the real ones are different) save for what looks like the 2e using a recycled Airfix 2d underframe.

 

I've just bought a Hornby J36 and I've found it fairly accurate and detailed when compared to NERA drawings. The same is true of the B1/K1 (no I can never remember which) that I bought a few years back. However, when it comes to diesel, electric and 'modern' coaching stock, they seem to have it AAF. Still, at £20 for a 2f BSO (Hornby) it will be a good practice session without the risk of wrecking a more expensive Bachmann version.

 

Here is the Mk2d top vs Mk2e bottom under frame views. Both made by Hornby. From a distance they look similar but the bits are all different dimensions. Kinda amazing that some 40 years after its release, modern manufacturers are having a hard time surpassing the old airfix model....

 

 

 

Yeah, for the price, I don't think the Bachmann one is ideal for repainting and bashing around. Better is the enemy of the good enough.

 

 

Edited September 7, 2020 by JSpencer

[Derekstuart]

Thanks John.

 

Sorry, another question. Does the 2E come apart in the same way as the Airfix 2D- ie, remove the vestibule, drop the floor... or in the same way as Lima, where the vestibule is moulded as part of the body?

 

Thanks
Derek

[andyman7]

23 hours ago, Derekstuart said:

Thanks John. From the pictures I've looked at, I can't see the difference between 2e and 2f (in the model sense that is,

The main model difference is that the visible solebar issue was addressed for the Mk2fs. Externally Mk2e's and Mk2f's are very similar indeed it shows how far RTR has come that there is an actual choice of Mk2d, e and f these days.

[JSpencer]

2 hours ago, Derekstuart said:

Thanks John.

 

Sorry, another question. Does the 2E come apart in the same way as the Airfix 2D- ie, remove the vestibule, drop the floor... or in the same way as Lima, where the vestibule is moulded as part of the body?

 

Thanks
Derek

 

Hi Derek,

 

I have not pulled one apart but - looking at it - I would say that for the Hornby 2e, it looks like it is moulded as part of the body like Lima.

I brought my 2e's prefitted with lights when they first came. Much derided by some but wish Hornby would add them to their 2fs (Bachmann's lighting, is designed for DCC control which is not really a requirement for me personally).

 

(BTW, good to see you back on the forum).

Rgds John

 

[Derekstuart]

4 hours ago, andyman7 said:

The main model difference is that the visible solebar issue was addressed for the Mk2fs. Externally Mk2e's and Mk2f's are very similar indeed it shows how far RTR has come that there is an actual choice of Mk2d, e and f these days.

Thanks for that added info, Handyman. I might be wrong here, but it does seem that some retailers are mis-matching the pictures and the text; certainly that's not surprising given Hornby themselves struggle with their descriptions. I dare say someone is going to ask me to give some examples, but that will need trawling through all the adverts again.

 

2 hours ago, JSpencer said:

 

Hi Derek,

 

I have not pulled one apart but - looking at it - I would say that for the Hornby 2e, it looks like it is moulded as part of the body like Lima.

I brought my 2e's prefitted with lights when they first came. Much derided by some but wish Hornby would add them to their 2fs (Bachmann's lighting, is designed for DCC control which is not really a requirement for me personally).

 

(BTW, good to see you back on the forum).

Rgds John

 

 

Thanks John. I am going to buy one of each (2e and 2f) and see for myself- as Confuscious (allegedly) said: When I hear, I forget, when I see written comments from others on RMW, I remember, but when I dismantle my MK2 coaches, I understand.

 

Re your other comment- thank you. I am not so sure everyone would agree with you, but that means a lot to me. This time I am going to spend more time making things and less time in 'wheeltappers'...