Colourful Wagons

[garethashenden]

I'm looking to add some colour to my otherwise monotone rolling stock collection. I'm modelling a small North London Railway goods yard c.1903, so I think I can run stock from most of the country, especially if they're ordinary wagons.

 

The options seem to be:

 

Red:

GWR

GNR

SER

 

Brown:

LSWR

 

Grey:

NLR

LNWR

LBSCR

LCDR

SECR

GER

MR

GCR

 

Greenish Grey:

Cambrian

 

I'd like suggestions of other railways that had non-grey wagons. I think I'm missing a few. Thanks!

[mikeandnel]

Hello Gareth

Long time no speak!

What about Hull & Barnsley

East and West Yorkshire Union Railway

Miss your help

Best regards

Michael dJS

[jwealleans]

Private Owners?

[BG John]

It's been suggested that red weathered to pretty much grey, so some of the colourful wagons probably need to have lost much of their colour!

[MarcD]

Do you have a requirement for explosives as Gunpowder vans are usually bright and the shade changes depending on the company.

 

NBR Orange

LSWR Bright Red

LNWR/NER Vermillion

GNR White with raised iron work in red

Cally Deep red

GER Red top half and chocolate brown bottom

 

PO wagons are always good for colour

 

Marc

[Poggy1165]

The North Staffordshire was a sort of browny oxide.

 

The GER had some vans in two shades of grey. I think there was something special about their fitted vans too, but I don't have one.

 

The GCR had some light grey refrigerator vans with a huge white five pointed star and 'Refrigerator' in big red letters. 

 

I believe some ex SER vehicles would still have been red in your period. See SER kits

 

Caledonian were red, often models are a sort of brick red.

 

LDEC were allegedly chocolate; though some dispute this.

 

PO wagons are perhaps your best bet. Most (outside South Wales) were various shades of red, but if you shop around you can have blue, green, yellow, brown - probably pink if you look hard enough.

[wagonman]

I'm looking to add some colour to my otherwise monotone rolling stock collection. I'm modelling a small North London Railway goods yard c.1903, so I think I can run stock from most of the country, especially if they're ordinary wagons.

 

The options seem to be:

 

Red:

GWR

GNR

SER

 

Brown:

LSWR

 

Grey:

NLR

LNWR

LBSCR

LCDR

SECR

GER

MR

GCR

 

Greenish Grey:

Cambrian

 

I'd like suggestions of other railways that had non-grey wagons. I think I'm missing a few. Thanks!

 

 

I suspect that in 1903 the vast majority of wagons in an NLR goods yard would be LNWR, this being a decade or more before any common user agreements. Still, you should be able to muster at least 40 shades of grey...

[Quarryscapes]

Cambrian Horse boxes would be bronze green all over if you can find an excuse to justify one. Plain goods wagons were just grey, no greenish. Outside framed stuff had black outside frames, so not entirely monotonous. 

[Argos]

The LNWR ran white painted refrigerated (can be justified with Black painted framing in 1903) and butter vans.

Also some of the milk vans were painted in Carriage stock colours (plum and spilt milk), horse boxes and special cattle vans would be brown.

[Worsdell forever]

 - probably pink if you look hard enough.

 

The L&Y (although probably quite rare in North London) at one time painted some specialist vans in pastel colours, including pink.

 

From the L&Y society website - 

...for a short time in the Edwardian period specialist vans were apparently painted in pastel shades - blue for butter, green for fish and pink for meat. Refrigerator vans were white. The scheme did not last long and in 1908 a new batch of fish vans were painted white.

 

[MarcD]

NPCS would bring some colour to your good yard, as would some companies refrigerator vans were painted reflective colours LSWR were pink, NER/GNR/GCR white, GER light grey sides, dark grey ends with black letters red diagonal stripes on the sides. Also the GER had yellow butter vans.

 

You would be surprised who's wagons ended up where. A 1920 RCH wagon survey in the GWR's main goods yard in Bristol only 25% of the wagons were GWR own. Companies form all 4 corners of England, Scotland and Wales were present along with private owners. there were even some really small companies present.

 

Cambrian and Furness 2 plank wagons delivered slate all over the country, London required roofing. Box and Cattle vans from every company could be found every where, London needing feeding. Also the cattle vans would be covered in lime wash. 

 

Marc

[Caley Jim]

As has been said, coal wagons are a great way of dealing with colourful variety.

Be aware, though, that the only PO coal wagons you would see in a small yard would be those of a)local coal merchants and b) the collieries and/or coal factors supplying them.

 

Jim

[Mikkel]

Another part of London, I know,  but maybe Adrian's Basilica Fields pages can provide a little inspiration?

 

Eg second picture down here : https://basilicafields.wordpress.com/page/16/

 

Or GER wagons in London area: https://basilicafields.wordpress.com/category/wagons/

[Compound2632]

 

PO wagons are perhaps your best bet. Most (outside South Wales) were various shades of red, but if you shop around you can have blue, green, yellow, brown - probably pink if you look hard enough.

 

Going by the Gloucester book by Keith Montague, "lead colour" (which I think means a grey mixed from white lead and drop black) was as common or commoner than black, with red in third place - but that's only one builder.

[Poggy1165]

Going by the Gloucester book by Keith Montague, "lead colour" (which I think means a grey mixed from white lead and drop black) was as common or commoner than black, with red in third place - but that's only one builder.

 

Yes, I forgot grey. But outside South Wales (where many wagons simply shuttled between colliery and dock, albeit there were lots of them) black was relatively rare. Although certainly not unknown.

I think either Keith Turton or Bill Hudson published an analysis, but where exactly it is to be found I cannot say. My memory is not that good.

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

Doesn't take much to provoke me into pulling Dennis Lovett's  NLR book off the shelves and taking a look at the lovely contents. And relevant to this: 

 Although not impossible, it is not so likely for lone cattle wagons to appear on the NLR. (If anyone has a photo, and/or documents suggesting that it was a common occurrence, to prove me wrong, I would be delighted to be contradicted.)
 

 In the sketch plan of the Poplar Docks complex, there is a 'NLR Cattle Dock'. So, on the assumption that it would not have been constructed unless there was an expectation of traffic, cattle wagons on the NLR do seem possible; though unless a cripple was set out of a train, a lone cattle wagon would seem unlikely. No cattle wagons to be seen in any of the pictures unfortunately.

[Andy Hayter]

But weren't "cattle" docks also used for unloading/loading horses - the prime motive power once off the rails.

[MarcD]

And Cattle vans were used to transport working horses only posh horses when in horse boxes. This also includes horses for military use.  

 

Marc 

[Edwardian]

I'm looking to add some colour to my otherwise monotone rolling stock collection. I'm modelling a small North London Railway goods yard c.1903, so I think I can run stock from most of the country, especially if they're ordinary wagons.

 

The options seem to be:

 

Red:

GWR

GNR

SER

 

Brown:

LSWR

 

Grey:

NLR

LNWR

LBSCR

LCDR

SECR

GER

MR

GCR

 

Greenish Grey:

Cambrian

 

I'd like suggestions of other railways that had non-grey wagons. I think I'm missing a few. Thanks!

 

Good idea.

 

I have been pondering suitable goods stock for 1905, and had arrived at some general conclusions.

 

Most wagons will be railway company owned, and most of these will be opens.  I agree most stations will only see the local coal merchant or factors wagons, and photographs of the period, unless of a colliery(!), tend to show POs as very much the minority in goods yards or  mixed freights. 

 

At any given location, pre-1914, home company wagons will generally predominate.  Foreign wagons are frequently seen on other companies' lines, even before WW1 and pooling, but needed to have a reason to be there.  There were no common user arrangements in 1903 (there may have been individual arrangements between particular companies); wagons were all supposed to return home, so a foreign journey is a to and from journey for a specific purpose.  I suspect that, if the wagon of a certain company is not delivering to your station or one on its line, it will only pass through if it cannot get from point of origin to destination more conveniently by another route, preferably on its owner's metals.

 

Generally I would expect most foreign wagons to come from neighbouring companies, if only because goods of a nature obtainable from more than one district would presumably be sourced from relatively near at hand.  Goods only obtainable from further afield would require longer journeys. For example, I have thought about having a Cambrian Railways Open running to Norfolk on the basis that Welsh slate had a national market.  Similarly, I might have LNWR or Scottish company cattle wagons for stock coming south to be fattened in Norfolk.  So, some far-off and apparently unlikely visitors can be justified.   A more local wagon would be a GE lowmac-style wagon, with agricultural machinery as a load.  On the basis that a lot of agricultural machinery was manufactured in East Anglia in GE territory, and Lincoln (GE & GN Joint), I feel that could run such a wagon with such a load almost anywhere in the country.   

 

In 1903, you are definitely still within the era in which small lettering predominated, albeit within the period of transition to the more familiar large initials.  What evidence I have seen suggests that wagon repaints could be a long time in coming, easily 10-15 years, and often longer, so where a livery change has been introduced recently, the safest course is probably to  restrict its application to wagons built after the change.

 

Many companies seemed to go on more or less standardised wagon building sprees from the 1880s, and each company's open wagon designs were often largely unchanged save for minor details from the 1880s through at least to the mid-Edwardian period.  Typically, the w/b is 9'6", which is a bore because kits and RTR wagons tend to come in w/bs of 9' or 10'. 

 

In 1903 wagons built in the 1880s might be seen in their 'as built' liveries; I suspect many, if not most, were, and this would be true of wagons built since.  Many grey wagons probably darkened over time.  They would not lighten.  There is not much point in getting hung up about precise shades, provided the foregoing is borne in mind.

 

With lettering/markings, the only safe course is to work from photographs.  In your chosen year, I suggest that the contrasting and evolving styles of company-owned wagons provide more variety than that resulting from different colours and shades.

 

So, for what it's worth, my thoughts on what, in1903, some of the company schemes would be:

 

MR - Mid/light grey - Large 'MR' (from 1898?)

 

LNWR - Dark Grey - Twin diamond marks and no initials until 1908.  Query how dark the dark grey was when applied - at some point in the 1900s, outside framed vans had the framing picked out in a contrasting darker grey.  The two tone livery only applied to O/S framed vans and brake vans.  The only picture I have seen is dated 1913, but shows a brake van in pre-1908 livery (no initials), so my guess is that the two-tone livery was applied sometime between 1900 and 1908.  I think for 1903 a reasonable approach is to choose one or depict both.

 

GER - Slate Grey - Small 'GER' left hand corner.  Large GE only from 1903 (intermediate scheme 1902).

 

GNR -Brown Oxide -  Pre-1898, small lettering, typically small 'G Northern R'.  An 1882 wagon tender shows an alternative lettering scheme.  Large 'GN' from 1898, but all wagons built before then likely to be using small lettering.

 

GWR - Red (review of recent scholarship suggests Red until at least 1896 and quite probably until 1904) - small 'GWR' in left or right corner or cast plate.  Standardisation of the 'GWR' on the right-hand side was from 1893, so I suggest that examples of both would be evident in 1903.  The cast plates were first used in 1894 and became general form 1898. I think the colour debate centres on the first diagrammed wagons built in the cast-plate era.  Large 'G W' (25") only from 1904, and wagons certainly dark grey at this point.

 

LB&SCR - (from at least 1897) Lead Grey - the southern companies tended to go for a mid-sized lettering; 'LBSCRy' in 9" or 10" letters;  'LB&SCR' not until 1903, and the large lettering style, 18", not until 1911.  Note, though, that the Stroudley livery seems to have continued up to some point between 1890 and 1897, so would probably still be in evidence in 1903.  This is the "lavender grey" body with black iron-work and the white shield with red cross illiteracy mark and no company initials.

 

LSWR  - Brown; up to circa 1890 brown with black iron-work and small initials ('L&SWR'), from circa 1891, larger initials ('LSWR'), nominally 12" appear and are universally applied by 1897, though the details of this company's wagon liveries said to be confused and controversial! 

 

GCR -  as this company has only existed for a short time by 1903, query how many GCR-liveried wagons, as opposed to constituent wagons wearing their old liveries to a large extent by 1903, unless the GC made an heroic effort to stamp its new identity on its goods fleet ahead of the cycle of repairs and repaints. I defer to Richard I!

[garethashenden]

Doesn't take much to provoke me into pulling Dennis Lovett's  NLR book off the shelves and taking a look at the lovely contents. And relevant to this: 

 In the sketch plan of the Poplar Docks complex, there is a 'NLR Cattle Dock'. So, on the assumption that it would not have been constructed unless there was an expectation of traffic, cattle wagons on the NLR do seem possible; though unless a cripple was set out of a train, a lone cattle wagon would seem unlikely. No cattle wagons to be seen in any of the pictures unfortunately.

I can't remember where the cattle came from, but they were imported via that dock. Unfortunately for me, the traffic had dried up by the 1890s and the NLR sold off their cattle wagons. Both GWR and LSWR meat vans ran via the NLR, the beef having been brought into one of the Royal Docks, but that isn't much use on the current layout.

[garethashenden]

Thanks everyone for your help. The majority of my wagons are LNWR with the rest of the railway owned wagons being from other London railways. I have a few PO wagons and I do need more, but trying to figure out which ones are appropriate is difficult. I have seen pictures of Parry and Wm Cory & Sons wagons on the NLR in my period. I have both of those. I also plan on building a F. Warren wagon, I have the transfers, pictures, and a somewhat suitable drawing. So that's two red and one grey wagons. Stevenson Clarke wagons were seen as well, so they're on the list, but at this point they pretty much are the list. Any others I should have? The NLR had it's own coal wagons, both hoppers and regular wagons, but I don't think they were used much for "retail" coal, loco and industrial being the normal uses.

 

Edwardian: The GER lowmak and traction engine idea is well underway. It keeps getting sidelined by easier projects but will get done eventually. GER wagons in general are something I could use more of, despite their greyness. The Cambrian wagon full of slate is another project I have planned, but not yet acquired any of the bits for.

[Edwardian]

Edwardian: The GER lowmak and traction engine idea is well underway. It keeps getting sidelined by easier projects but will get done eventually. GER wagons in general are something I could use more of, despite their greyness. The Cambrian wagon full of slate is another project I have planned, but not yet acquired any of the bits for.

 

The most numerous GE wagon of the period by far is the Diagram 17.  It is remarkably similar to GNR standard opens of the period, and, indeed, to its predecessors.  The GERS has some good information, but the best in depth study I have found is the deservedly oft-quoted Basilica Field website, with which I assume you are familiar as it appears extremely pertinent to your project.

 

However, these GE and GN types are of the typical 9'6" w/b ilk.  I can scratch-build the sides.  When I met Jonathan Wealleans recently, he made the suggestion that, for more than one wagon, resin casting from 1 end and 1 side was sensible.  I am seriously considering that!

 

But what about the underframes?  The only source I know for user friendly and inexpensive wooden u/fs for the period is Cambrian.  Plastic kits, perfect!  But they are not 9'6" w/b.

 

My best idea, so far, is to use Cambrian Kits C34 RCH u/f and extend them.

 

I would interested to learn your approach to these wagons.

[garethashenden]

In the first post on my workbench thread there is a PO wagon I scratch built. I just used styrene strip for the solebars with etched w-irons and whitemetal spring and axlebox castings. I find the Brassmasters axle alignment jigs very useful for that sort of project. I tend to replace a lot of the underframes on kits, so if the body isn't available I'll just scratchbuild the whole thing. I have started a GER open, then got distracted, as us usually the case.

[Edwardian]

In the first post on my workbench thread there is a PO wagon I scratch built. I just used styrene strip for the solebars with etched w-irons and whitemetal spring and axlebox castings. I find the Brassmasters axle alignment jigs very useful for that sort of project. I tend to replace a lot of the underframes on kits, so if the body isn't available I'll just scratchbuild the whole thing. I have started a GER open, then got distracted, as us usually the case.

 

I will hasten thence.  Thanks

[BG John]

But what about the underframes?  The only source I know for user friendly and inexpensive wooden u/fs for the period is Cambrian.  Plastic kits, perfect!  But they are not 9'6" w/b.

Ratio do a pair of 9ft wheelbase wooden underframes, product number 570. I'm using one on my Hornby broad gauge open wagon conversion. You could cut the solebars in half and extend them in the middle for 9ft 6in or 10ft.