Colourful Wagons

[Edwardian]

I like a bit of mass in my wagons, and many years ago, either Sam Bonfield or Len White made a pattern for the steel sole bar variant side and ends (including the buffer beams), and a home produced mould from RTV silicon rubber was created, from which sides and ends could be cast. I made some for the earlier, wooden under frame design, including the sole bar with the side.

 

I cast quite a lot of sides and ends from these (and Len's moulds), soldered them up, and added wooden floors from ply. "Steel" sole bars could be added from brass or styrene channel, and the bolt and rivet detail was embossed into sheet (5 thou styrene or copper foil) which was inlaid into the channel. Some brake gear castings happened to fit the wheelbase - it is worth checking out nominal 10' wheelbase as they sometimes leave a large gap between wheel and brake shoe - plus etched axle guards ("W-irons") and castings for springs, axle boxes and buffers, and there you are.

 

All of that was S scale, of course, and many of the bodies I cast ended up providing basic wagon stock for East Lynn (assembly and completion by Trevor Nunn). If you look at photos of GER branch line trains and goods yards, you will be overwhelmed with 5-plank opens!

 

All capable of production via a few simple tools and a few materials, using nothing more than the kitchen table and the stove top of the cooker.

 

 

 

Sounds like a plan!

 

I used to cast wargames figures in my extreme youth. If I could do that as child/early teen ... I remember obtaining the kit from Alex Tiranti (http://www.tiranti.co.uk/).  Probably have sold of the kit (but not presently accessible).   I have never tried casting anything like a wagon side; it may require a different type of mould.  I used to make simple 2 piece moulds.  Would a wagon side/solebar etc be too thin to divide in this way?

 

One of my difficulties is that our Gaff has an electric hob (bl**dy induction hob!), so cannot heat the metal as I used to over my mother's hob.  I suppose I have to invest in a camping stove!

[Andy Hayter]

Another thing to consider is the balance of wagon types.

 

I have recently become the proud owner of some old HMRS Journals.  In the Jan 92 edition someone has made an estimate of the number of vans and opens in service on the GER, LSWR and LBSCR.  The ratio of opens to vans ranged from a bit under 4:1 to over 5:1

[Compound2632]

At any given location, pre-1914, home company wagons will generally predominate.  Foreign wagons are frequently seen on other companies' lines, even before WW1 and pooling, but needed to have a reason to be there.  There were no common user arrangements in 1903 (there may have been individual arrangements between particular companies); wagons were all supposed to return home, so a foreign journey is a to and from journey for a specific purpose.  I suspect that, if the wagon of a certain company is not delivering to your station or one on its line, it will only pass through if it cannot get from point of origin to destination more conveniently by another route, preferably on its owner's metals.

 

MR - Mid/light grey - Large 'MR' (from 1898?)

 

I think that from all I've seen and read this is pretty much true - I'd add that there were demurrage charges which gave the receiving company a strong incentive to return foreign wagons to their company of origin ASAP, probably empty. Brassey posted a photo of Windsor Street goods station in Birmingham where all but one of the identifiable company-owned wagons are of the home company - LNWR; this is in a major industrial centre where one might expect trade with all corners of the country. (The foreign wagon is inevitably my favourite MR D299 open!) Of course the other local companies (MR, GWR) had their own goods stations in the city to which their wagons would concentrate and Birmingham was at the centre of the LNWR network which reached many corners of the country. The situation might be different in a smaller town served by one of the smaller companies and further from the major industrial centres.

 

Midland pedant mode for a moment: Large MR on open wagons from the mid-1880s and universal in photos after c. 1900. MR (large or small) on all goods stock certainly by c.1905, definitely on anything built after the mid 1890s.

 

Ratio do a pair of 9ft wheelbase wooden underframes, product number 570. I'm using one on my Hornby broad gauge open wagon conversion. You could cut the solebars in half and extend them in the middle for 9ft 6in or 10ft.

 

Those Ratio underframes, especially the axleboxes, are very LNWR in character - maybe they do suit your prototype. The Cambrian Gloucester ones are more generic for late 19th century. But, if you're only using the solebars or solebars and W-irons and replacing the axlebox/spring units, and have a set of the grease axlebox/springs going spare, I'd be interested!

[Poggy1165]

I think foreign wagons were mostly full loads. If, for example, you're taking a whopping great tree trunk from Warwickshire to Oldham, the chances are it will arrive on a GW bolster wagon, or wagons. But any match trucks may well be replaced by local ones.

 

There was a strong tendency to tranship stuff so as to concentrate loads into single wagons, usually of the local company. Especially as wagons were rarely loaded to full capacity anyway. The hard bit is knowing where the transhipment took place. The famous (huge) one is Crewe; the GC had smaller transhipment sheds at Guide Bridge and Penistone, but I've never discovered the 'network'.

 

If you are deep in a company's territory, well away from any 'borders', the chances are most stuff is going to rock up in local wagons.

 

(As an aside I remember reading a LNWR driver's recollections, and one thing he mentioned was a certain train that had to be in Carlisle by a particular time, because it was a demurrage train. It took me decades, literally, to figure out what that meant. Obviously it was a train mainly or wholly of Scottish wagons 'going home.' Or should that be 'away hame'?)

[BG John]

 Those Ratio underframes, especially the axleboxes, are very LNWR in character - maybe they do suit your prototype. The Cambrian Gloucester ones are more generic for late 19th century. But, if you're only using the solebars or solebars and W-irons and replacing the axlebox/spring units, and have a set of the grease axlebox/springs going spare, I'd be interested!

I'm afraid I'm using the solebars and the axlebox/spring units, on some very freelance broad gauge wagons.

[jwealleans]

I've lost track of what year we're dealing with here and on this appallingly slow hotel wifi I'm afraid I shan't be reading back to find out. What I can bring to my learned colleagues' attention is a tank wagon, Blagden Waugh, a London firm, buitl 1908 and painted vermilion with white lettering.

 

Bill Hudson, Private Owner Wagons, Vol. 2, plate 97.

 

Not the only tanker in here painted a shade of red, either. That worth a thought?

[Caley Jim]

On large letters, the Caledonian started using large C R in the Drummond period, i.e. post 1882.

 

On cattle trucks, they could be far traveled.  I have seen a photo of a CR train passing Perth ticket platform and in the background is a MET cattle truck.

 

Jim

[Guy Rixon]

Those Ratio underframes, especially the axleboxes, are very LNWR in character - maybe they do suit your prototype. The Cambrian Gloucester ones are more generic for late 19th century. But, if you're only using the solebars or solebars and W-irons and replacing the axlebox/spring units, and have a set of the grease axlebox/springs going spare, I'd be interested!

 

 

You can get LNWR grease axleboxes on Shapeways.

[Compound2632]

You can get LNWR grease axleboxes on Shapeways.

 

Indeed I've seen those but I'm not beneath trying to scrounge a freebee.

[Penlan]

I seem to recall years ago, the LNWR grey was described as 'Invisible Grey' ?

[Edwardian]

I seem to recall years ago, the LNWR grey was described as 'Invisible Grey' ?

 

Who said that?!?

[Edwardian]

Dunno. He was here a minute ago, but then he seemed to vanish into thin air...

 

Perhaps he's related to that French bloke, Eminence Grise

[Quarryscapes]

You can get LNWR grease axleboxes on Shapeways.

 

Get them in FUD rather than FXD, so there is a greater likelihood of being printed flat rather than stood on end. They will be printed on end in FXD and you'll lose all the detail I took hours to draw. 

[lanchester]

Good idea.

 

I have been pondering suitable goods stock for 1905, and had arrived at some general conclusions.

 

Most wagons will be railway company owned, and most of these will be opens.  I agree most stations will only see the local coal merchant or factors wagons, and photographs of the period, unless of a colliery(!), tend to show POs as very much the minority in goods yards or  mixed freights. 

 

At any given location, pre-1914, home company wagons will generally predominate.  Foreign wagons are frequently seen on other companies' lines, even before WW1 and pooling, but needed to have a reason to be there.  There were no common user arrangements in 1903 (there may have been individual arrangements between particular companies); wagons were all supposed to return home, so a foreign journey is a to and from journey for a specific purpose.  I suspect that, if the wagon of a certain company is not delivering to your station or one on its line, it will only pass through if it cannot get from point of origin to destination more conveniently by another route, preferably on its owner's metals.

 

Generally I would expect most foreign wagons to come from neighbouring companies, if only because goods of a nature obtainable from more than one district would presumably be sourced from relatively near at hand.  Goods only obtainable from further afield would require longer journeys. For example, I have thought about having a Cambrian Railways Open running to Norfolk on the basis that Welsh slate had a national market.  Similarly, I might have LNWR or Scottish company cattle wagons for stock coming south to be fattened in Norfolk.  So, some far-off and apparently unlikely visitors can be justified.   A more local wagon would be a GE lowmac-style wagon, with agricultural machinery as a load.  On the basis that a lot of agricultural machinery was manufactured in East Anglia in GE territory, and Lincoln (GE & GN Joint), I feel that could run such a wagon with such a load almost anywhere in the country.   

 

In 1903, you are definitely still within the era in which small lettering predominated, albeit within the period of transition to the more familiar large initials.  What evidence I have seen suggests that wagon repaints could be a long time in coming, easily 10-15 years, and often longer, so where a livery change has been introduced recently, the safest course is probably to  restrict its application to wagons built after the change.

 

Many companies seemed to go on more or less standardised wagon building sprees from the 1880s, and each company's open wagon designs were often largely unchanged save for minor details from the 1880s through at least to the mid-Edwardian period.  Typically, the w/b is 9'6", which is a bore because kits and RTR wagons tend to come in w/bs of 9' or 10'. 

 

In 1903 wagons built in the 1880s might be seen in their 'as built' liveries; I suspect many, if not most, were, and this would be true of wagons built since.  Many grey wagons probably darkened over time.  They would not lighten.  There is not much point in getting hung up about precise shades, provided the foregoing is borne in mind.

 

With lettering/markings, the only safe course is to work from photographs.  In your chosen year, I suggest that the contrasting and evolving styles of company-owned wagons provide more variety than that resulting from different colours and shades.

 

So, for what it's worth, my thoughts on what, in1903, some of the company schemes would be:

 

MR - Mid/light grey - Large 'MR' (from 1898?)

 

LNWR - Dark Grey - Twin diamond marks and no initials until 1908.  Query how dark the dark grey was when applied - at some point in the 1900s, outside framed vans had the framing picked out in a contrasting darker grey.  The two tone livery only applied to O/S framed vans and brake vans.  The only picture I have seen is dated 1913, but shows a brake van in pre-1908 livery (no initials), so my guess is that the two-tone livery was applied sometime between 1900 and 1908.  I think for 1903 a reasonable approach is to choose one or depict both.

 

GER - Slate Grey - Small 'GER' left hand corner.  Large GE only from 1903 (intermediate scheme 1902).

 

GNR -Brown Oxide -  Pre-1898, small lettering, typically small 'G Northern R'.  An 1882 wagon tender shows an alternative lettering scheme.  Large 'GN' from 1898, but all wagons built before then likely to be using small lettering.

 

GWR - Red (review of recent scholarship suggests Red until at least 1896 and quite probably until 1904) - small 'GWR' in left or right corner or cast plate.  Standardisation of the 'GWR' on the right-hand side was from 1893, so I suggest that examples of both would be evident in 1903.  The cast plates were first used in 1894 and became general form 1898. I think the colour debate centres on the first diagrammed wagons built in the cast-plate era.  Large 'G W' (25") only from 1904, and wagons certainly dark grey at this point.

 

LB&SCR - (from at least 1897) Lead Grey - the southern companies tended to go for a mid-sized lettering; 'LBSCRy' in 9" or 10" letters;  'LB&SCR' not until 1903, and the large lettering style, 18", not until 1911.  Note, though, that the Stroudley livery seems to have continued up to some point between 1890 and 1897, so would probably still be in evidence in 1903.  This is the "lavender grey" body with black iron-work and the white shield with red cross illiteracy mark and no company initials.

 

LSWR  - Brown; up to circa 1890 brown with black iron-work and small initials ('L&SWR'), from circa 1891, larger initials ('LSWR'), nominally 12" appear and are universally applied by 1897, though the details of this company's wagon liveries said to be confused and controversial! 

 

GCR -  as this company has only existed for a short time by 1903, query how many GCR-liveried wagons, as opposed to constituent wagons wearing their old liveries to a large extent by 1903, unless the GC made an heroic effort to stamp its new identity on its goods fleet ahead of the cycle of repairs and repaints. I defer to Richard I!

Reference the GCR, I was at my Aunt's this week and spotted a book that my late uncle owned. 'Our Home Railways' (and a subtitle something like 'and how they work') published by Frederick Warne in, I reckon, approximately 1908. This was in one volume but I think had originally been published in two parts, and consists of an introductory on early railways, followed by history and current operations of most of the then major companies (including one or two Irish lines).

 

Now in the section on the GCR there are two great pix (unfortunately I wasn't in a position to copy, nor to take the book away with me, tempted though I was). One was of a high sided open wagon, with an additional 'cage' (square wire mesh a bit like modern security fencing) to carry even greater loads - these were mostly packing cases and pretty well doubled the height of the seven or so plank wagon more or less to full loading gauge - all looked rather scary: some of the cases were on top of other stuff so were only enclosed by the cage.

 

More relevantly to this theme, there was a 'refrigerated van'. Looked much like a fairly standard, vacuum braked 10 or 12 ton van. Livery was a large G and C, in a blocky serif font, either side of a big five pointed star (the latter on the central doors), all apparently in white, the letters shaded and the star outlined in dark, presumably black. All against a fairly light (grey? light blue?) body colour. Across all this was the word 'REFRIGERATED' in a dark colour. The total effect is quite striking (and would really stand out as a model).

 

As a subsidiary question, although vacuum brake fittings were apparent, I didn't notice anything that suggested 'refrigerated' as opposed to merely well insulated to keep the ice cold, but the inscription must have had some significance. Anyone know any more?

[asmay2002]

Beal in "Modelling the old time railways" published as far back as 1955 gives:

 

Caledonian - red brown

Furness - Grey

GSWR - Lead Grey

GCR - Lead grey

GER - Lead Grey

GNR - Red Brown

GNSR - Dark grey

GWR - Grey

Highland - Red Brown

H&BR Lead

L&Y - Dark grey

LNWR - Grey

LSWR - Dark Brown

LBSCR - Grey

M&CR - Dark grey

Midland  - Light Grey

NBR - Grey

NLR _ Grey

NER -Grey

S&DJR - Dark grey

SECR - Dark red-brown

[Guy Rixon]

SECR wagons weren't red-brown, they were grey. SER wagons were red, possibly red oxide, and might have survived thus some years beyond the merger.

[BG John]

And while old time GWR wagons were grey, it depends how old time your old time modelling is, as in even older times they were red, and before that brown.

[NCB]

Highland Railway - Red oxide

North Staffs - Dark red

Barry Railway - Red Oxide

 

Even pre-common-user wagons could travel all over the place.

[Penlan]

..... One was of a high sided open wagon, with an additional 'cage' (square wire mesh a bit like modern security fencing) to carry even greater loads - 

The NER had these too, Empty Cask wagons, Dia. 3C, there was a D&S kit for them too.

[jwealleans]

D & S also did a GNR cage sided wagon. The NER one is still available from 51L/Wizard.

[Jim Martin]

I think either Keith Turton or Bill Hudson published an analysis, but where exactly it is to be found I cannot say. My memory is not that good.

I don't remember where it was published, but I know that I have a copy. It was based on the paint colours recorded in the order book of one of the big wagon builders (Charles Roberts, perhaps?). I'll see if I can rummage it out.

 

Jim

[jwealleans]

Further to my post 50 above, one of the D & S GNR wagons has appeared on Ebay and is already achieving the jaw-droppingly stupid prices Danny's stuff can command.

 

The NER one is listed at £18 by 51L/Wizard.

[Penlan]

Further to my post 50 above, one of the D & S GNR wagons has appeared on Ebay and is already achieving the jaw-droppingly stupid prices Danny's stuff can command.  The NER one is listed at £18 by 51L/Wizard.

I suspect my made up kit would attract less money, I wonder.......

I suppose if I put a ££'s reserve on it, tempting.

[Poggy1165]

The GC refrigerator wagons (some of them) had the word Refrigerator in red. Allegedly the basic grey is said to have been lighter than normal. The white, five pointed star was the GC logo.

 

I think the refrigeration system was quite primitive - as in ice boxes at the top. Cold air flows down. There were two diagrams of refrigerator and they were not all in the famous livery all of the time, but photos are rare, so I can't be too definitive.

 

I haven't found out what traffic they were used for, but they certainly worked to Marylebone so anywhere on the London extension would see them for sure. Anyone who wants a 4mm kit can now get one from Brassmasters, but the complex livery is a challenge. It's really a job for a pro, or at least a very skilled amateur.

[Penlan]

Mentioning Refrigerator Vans, and my mind wandering off..

I have a D&S LNWR Butter Van (Return to Holyhead) attached to an early LNWR 24' long Bullion Van...

 

'Kerry Gold'.