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New West Midlands Franchise - Standing Room Only?


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I've already proposed to DafT that they develop active track, the track would automatically detect the approach of wide trains and move outwards to increase the loading gauge to make more room, it will then move back to its normal alignment after the train has passed.

This is all you need:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/95/Waterloo_ION_gauntlet_track.jpg

:jester:

Keith

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I'm ashamed of you JJB - not even a whisper of a hint about VOs when all contractors know the route to assured profit lies in VOs, and DafT seem to be the ultimate mugs for them if the Class 800 saga is any guide (or are Hitachi innocent of such things?)

Sssssss......that's why all the doors at Hitachi, Bombardier, Siemens et al are made of glass. Sadly I fear those nuclear fusion powered trains will end up with a rent-a-skateboard scheme to try and keep project costs within £592 trillion and deliver something before the year 2148.

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A serious question: does the new franchise specify DOO?

Jonathan

From what I remember when I looked through the ITT, although it was some time ago, there was a paragraph about looking at ways to alter operating practices to save on cost, which could include DCO or DOO. If I remember right, it didn't explicitly say introduce DOO, but didn't rule it out either!

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Read somewhere that the spec of the new trains should include the ability to be DCO (DOO by another name) with no station mounted fittings, i.e. bodyside CCTV

 

 

Edit: Found it http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/114692-new-west-midlands-franchise-standing-room-only/?p=2426012

And the ITT https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/549246/wmf-itt.pdf

Edited by Talltim
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From what I remember when I looked through the ITT, although it was some time ago, there was a paragraph about looking at ways to alter operating practices to save on cost, which could include DCO or DOO. If I remember right, it didn't explicitly say introduce DOO, but didn't rule it out either!

 

As far as the trains are concerned it is pretty straightforward I would have thought and probably realistic to make them DOO compatible as they could move between franchises etc.  But making trains DOO compatible doesn't mean the infrastructure (and I don't mean the stations) is necessarily DOO compatible - maybe that little glitch has yet to dawn on Mr Wilkinson?

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I'm sure that with the slightest whiff of DCO (or DOO , as the rulebook actually calls it) , there'll be trouble at the mill....

 

I keep on making the point that however they dress it up , DCO is in fact DOO - the train could run without the second person , as in effect they are little more than a passenger. And if the second person has some safety responsibilities then surely the train can't run without them in the first place?

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But you don't need a second person who is safety critical as the driver will never be incapacitated when something goes wrong, DafT have told us so...

 

 

 

 

(sarcastic hat on)

Edited by Hobby
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I'm sure that with the slightest whiff of DCO (or DOO , as the rulebook actually calls it) , there'll be trouble at the mill....

 

I keep on making the point that however they dress it up , DCO is in fact DOO - the train could run without the second person , as in effect they are little more than a passenger. And if the second person has some safety responsibilities then surely the train can't run without them in the first place?

 

Ah but if you're a Civil Servant sitting in DafT safety responsibilities are an irrelevance as you can tell the train operators that they know nothing about runninga railway and will just have to do what you tell tem.

 

Power without responsibility has long been a dangerous thing.

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But you don't need a second person who is safety critical as the driver will never be incapacitated when something goes wrong, DafT have told us so...

 

 

 

 

(sarcastic hat on)

 

Yes. Good job the gap between the traction motor and the gearcase on the derailed 350 in Watford tunnel kept the car in a straight line. Otherwise the LM guard might have been in an even worse place.

 

But DfT maintain that DOO trains are safe as you say "Hobby"

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Ah but if you're a Civil Servant sitting in DafT safety responsibilities are an irrelevance as you can tell the train operators that they know nothing about runninga railway and will just have to do what you tell tem.

Particularly if you know that your initiative chimes nicely with the prejudices and ideologically of your political masters.

 

I note that Mr Wilkinson has never actually applogised for any of his statements - just for getting caught.

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  • 1 month later...
The Stourbridge Line Users Group have uploaded a stakeholder presentation to their facebook page - usual caveats apply, but here are the service/fleet details below: 

 

Train services

 

December 2018

• Major timetable recast, based on improving the performance of Birmingham New Street

− currently the highest cause of secondary delay to train services in the whole of the UK

• We will do this by reducing turnround services by up to 50%, freeing up platforms to allow any laterunning

trains to make up time

• This will help all Train Operators including Cross Country and West Coast services. 

 

We will also:

• reduce journey times between Euston and Birmingham and Euston and Crewe

• run new through services between London and Birmingham International to Liverpool and Walsall and

between Nuneaton, Coventry and Leamington Spa

• introduce additional services between Shrewsbury and Birmingham and Wolverhampton and Crewe

• provide a new hourly Sunday service between Shrewsbury and Birmingham

• run additional earlier and later services to Hereford, Crewe, Northampton and Liverpool.

 

December 2019

• We will double the services between Nuneaton and Coventry SX and SU via the Ricoh Stadium after

completion of the new bay platform at Coventry. We will replace the single car train with 2 car Class

172 trains. On Saturdays we will run 3 trains per hour

• There are plans to build 7 new stations in the West Midlands, subject to the successful completion of

feasibility studies

• Stourbridge Junction terminators will reverse and we have an aspiration to run them to a new station

at Brierley Hill, converting the existing double freight lines to two single lines, one passenger and one

freight

• We plan to extend Kidderminster terminators onto the Severn Valley Railway, subject to a new station

being built at the West Midlands Safari Park.

 

May 2021

• A new Sunday timetable that runs as many services as Saturdays, doubling the current number of

services. A new Sunday service will run between Bedford and Bletchley.

 

December 2023

• We have an aspiration to extend Brierley Hill services to interchange with the new Midland Metro

station we have planned for at Canal St.

 

Fleet [subject to successful completion of new train procurement and deals with ROSCOs on existing fleet]

 

December 2018

• 172/0 introduced from GOB 8x2car

• 230/2 introduced Bedford-Bletchley 3x2car.

 

December 2019

• 350/4 introduced from TPE 10x4car.

 

December 2020

• All 15X and 170 removed

• New DMUs introduced, 12x2car and 14x4car.

 

May 2021

• 350/2 removed

• New EMUs introduced, 42x5car and 36x3car.

 

Good news for Vivarail with 3 230s for Marston Vale services. 323s and 319s aren't mentioned but almost certainly for the chop.

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Great to see improvements on the Hereford line.  I've heard so many tales of woe over the years when sevices have been terminated at Ledbury or Malvern in order to get back to Brum on time with no provision for onward travel.  Later services and through running at New Street should help a lot. 

 

 

I can't wait to see the Severn Valley used again,  it would be even better if they could run right up to Bridgenorth during the week.

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I wonder how the proposed Safari Park service will work.  I seem to recall on the "Last 150" railtour when we crossed from Kidderminster, NR to Kidderminster, SVR it involved a bit of faffing around including multiple reversals and the use of a siding.  If this is aimed at a regular service for Joe and Joanna Numpty and brats I assume the crossing procedure will need reviewing or even a new connection?

​Plus, how would train cutomers be carried round the Safari Park?  Or are they going to allow them to walk around, including the lion enclosure?

"Daddy, why are our tickets singles only?  And why is that lion licking his lips?"

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I wonder how the proposed Safari Park service will work.  I seem to recall on the "Last 150" railtour when we crossed from Kidderminster, NR to Kidderminster, SVR it involved a bit of faffing around including multiple reversals and the use of a siding.  If this is aimed at a regular service for Joe and Joanna Numpty and brats I assume the crossing procedure will need reviewing or even a new connection?

IIRC that was before the area was resignalled, which involved upgrading the connection with the SVR as described in the 2013 article below:

 

The Rail Engineer: Connecting the Severn Valley

In August 2012, the main line was re- signalled and came under the control of the West Midlands Signalling Centre (WMSC) located at Saltley. This project incorporated the provision of a new facing crossover on the main line to make the reversal of terminating trains easier. It was quickly realised that this would create a facing movement over the points leading on to the Severn Valley Railway meaning that they would need to be equipped with a facing point lock.

 

Why therefore not make this a fully signalled route thus facilitating quick and easy movement on to and off the heritage line? Negotiations with Network Rail commenced with mutual benefits being realised by both parties and a collaborative design was prepared.

Edited by Christopher125
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• Major timetable recast, based on improving the performance of Birmingham New Street
− currently the highest cause of secondary delay to train services in the whole of the UK
• We will do this by reducing turnround services by up to 50%, freeing up platforms to allow any laterunning
trains to make up time
 
• reduce journey times between Euston and Birmingham and Euston and Crewe
• run new through services between London and Birmingham International to Liverpool and Walsall and
between Nuneaton, Coventry and Leamington Spa
 

 

 

Maybe I'm missing something but how does reducing the number of turnaround services at New St free up platforms, a terminating train only needs an a or b platform whereas a through train needs both.

 

I recently used a peak time LM London train from Hampton-in-Arden (the next station after International) that was non-stop from Northampton and it only took an hour and forty minutes, it's a one off though currently but it demonstrates what is possible.

 

As for the Safari Park station, welcome as it is, wouldn't it be virtually painless to continue to Bewdley as well, it's hardly much further.

 

Kenilworth every hour, I reckon that won't satisfy the natives for too long, though how you would increase it????

 

Pity they couldn't stop XC there and give them a service to New St as well, after all being as it's a busy single track passing place they're likely to be stopping anyway.

 

Years back I walked the old Berkswell - Kenilworth line at the junction we retired to a beer garden to see if a train might come past.

 

Nothing for over two hours, we were about to give up, then a single parcels car unit came through, a local at the pub claimed that was the first time he had ever seen a train, I don't think the line was used much back in those days (early 70s), nowadays it's chocka.

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Plus, how would train cutomers be carried round the Safari Park?  Or are they going to allow them to walk around, including the lion enclosure?

 

"Daddy, why are our tickets singles only?  And why is that lion licking his lips?"

 

The Safari Park has a fleet of minibuses for customers who lack suitable cars.

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Maybe I'm missing something but how does reducing the number of turnaround services at New St free up platforms, a terminating train only needs an a or b platform whereas a through train needs both.

 

However a terminating train will sit at whatever platform it uses for a good 10 minutes or so at a minimum, while a through train can vacate the platform in 2minutes. Thus if the station is running out of space to handle terminating services combining two such services to reduce platform occupation times will improve the situation.

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Yes. Good job the gap between the traction motor and the gearcase on the derailed 350 in Watford tunnel kept the car in a straight line. Otherwise the LM guard might have been in an even worse place.

 

But DfT maintain that DOO trains are safe as you say "Hobby"

DaFT have never said that DOO trains are as safe as crew operated trains, what they have stated is that DOO trains can be as safe as crew operated trains etc etc, the media took this as saying that DOO is as safe as crew working, what they havent done is correct the media's misinterpretation of their statement, which is a straight lift from the McNulty Report.

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DaFT have never said that DOO trains are as safe as crew operated trains, what they have stated is that DOO trains can be as safe as crew operated trains etc etc, the media took this as saying that DOO is as safe as crew working, what they havent done is correct the media's misinterpretation of their statement, which is a straight lift from the McNulty Report.

 

DOO brings risk and even maybe one day a body count but that is not a reason not to do it.

 

Safety and cost are always a trade off.

 

Four people were killed yesterday and three more suffered life changing injuries, on a motorway, seemingly an event that happens most weeks.

 

If the cost of absolute safety on the railway just pushes up fares and that only drives more people onto the roads that is a pretty dumb move.

 

Maybe one day a train will crash and the lack of a guard will make it worse then it needed to be but the trains should not have crashed in the first place and that should always be the focus.

 

Same with that tall building in Kensington that caught fire, why weren't sprinkler systems fitted they asked, well maybe because tall building like that aren't supposed to catch fire.

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Pity they couldn't stop XC there and give them a service to New St as well, after all being as it's a busy single track passing place they're likely to be stopping anyway.

 

 

 

Nooo! XC are a long distance I/C operator and currently stop at far too many stations as it is, in the process picking up short distance passengers  (and lots of fare dodgers) causing major issues for people who are travelling long distance and want seats... Stopping Kenilworth would make both issues worse. What would be better would be for LM (or whatever they are called) to run a LMS-COV-NUN service stopping all stations and for XC to run express from International to Leamington. But that would mean they'd lose some of their revenue so they won't.

 

Great to see improvements on the Hereford line.  I've heard so many tales of woe over the years when sevices have been terminated at Ledbury or Malvern in order to get back to Brum on time with no provision for onward travel.  

 

If there's a following service (even if it's an hour or two later) they don't have to, though if it's the last one they do...

Edited by Hobby
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However a terminating train will sit at whatever platform it uses for a good 10 minutes or so at a minimum, while a through train can vacate the platform in 2minutes. Thus if the station is running out of space to handle terminating services combining two such services to reduce platform occupation times will improve the situation.

 

That is exactly how it works - through trains generally need a much shorter dwell time than a terminating and reversing train plus they are liable to create conflicting moves as they cross between running lines when either arriving or departing.

 

I'm still waiting with baited breath to see how on earth Reading will be able to handle 4 terminating Crossrail trains per hour at the same time as an existing Cross Country termonator obn that side of teh station plus what will inevitably have to be additional GWR Thames Valley terminators from the west.  To be honest I don't think the station will have enough platforms to enable that lot to happen even with a lot of shuffling, and crossing moves - at low speed - to/from sidings.  But then I'dbnot really expect the promoters of Crossrail to be particularly familiar with how a large station with other operators has to work.  Back to the West Midlands.

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